Just 43% of Americans Identify as Protestant

Trailblazer · Mar 2, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Jews, Christians, and Baha'i all have different interpretations of the prophecy. And I don't see where you get the idea that Jesus never said that he would be back from. One of the worst failed prophecies in the Bible involve the end days when Jesus was supposed to have returned.

I don't see where you got the idea that Jesus said that he would be back. Jesus never said He was going to return to earth, not once in the entire New Testament. For seven years I have been asking Christians to provide even one verse wherein Jesus promised to return, and no Christian has ever provided one verse because it does not exist. The belief that the same man Jesus who was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven in His resurrected body would return in the same body is just a doctrinal Christian belief, it is not in the New Testament.

Obviously Christians have misunderstood many Bible verses in order to come up with such a false belief.
Indeed, the man who would bring the Christ Spirit was slated to return in the end days, but that was not to be the same man Jesus as Christians believe. The prophecy did not fail at all because the Christ Spirit which was promised by Jesus returned with a new name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Subduction Zone said:
You might want to read this, it is a very short article that explains the tool I mentioned earlier. And Daniel may be at least partially that sort of work:

Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia

vāticinium ex ēventū (Ecclesiastical Latin: [wa:tiˈkini.um eks e:ˈwentu:], "prophecy from the event") or post eventum ("after the event") is a technical theological or historiographical term referring to a prophecy written after the author already had information about the events being "foretold". The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted. Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar to postdiction.

Of course a prophecy is written after the author already had information about the events being "foretold". Otherwise the author would not have been able to write the prophecy.

I do not know what this means "The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted." I do not know any prophecies that were written after the events that were predicted.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 2, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
No, it was people’s faulty translations & interpretations of Scripture, that led to your nightmares.

"No true Christian...."
Another reason people are leaving such a religion behind. Christians going in their "holier than thou" attitude and the Christians who absolutely refuse to accept Christian crap stinks just like everybody else's.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 2, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
To me, it just reinforces Jesus’ words at Matthew 7:21-23, and Paul’s at 1 Corinthians 4:4. Satan is “the god of this world.” Even Jesus called him “the ruler of this world.”

Not for much longer. Hebrews 2:14.

Satan's hold is growing. It's not a terrible, or awful thing like you'd think. Humanity, art, science, and carnal pleasures forbidden by religions of ancient superstitions.
Or we could say the Fire's of Olympus are growing as our need for Zeus dwindles.
We are more becoming like Kirk, who faced the Olympians themselves and declared we have grown out of that like a child grows out of their dependence upon their parents.

Nivek001 · Mar 2, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
@Nivek001
“Lots of assumptions there. I wouldn't kill anyone, for starters.”

Allot of assumption here, namely you comparing yourself to an all knowing God and that you have the big picture regard the purpose of this life.

“What tested? What test? This was not something I consented to or was made aware of.”

And yet you figure you have the big picture regarding what the purpose of this life is?

Perhaps before you consider yourself knowledgeable and morally superior to God try to brush up on the belief that the purpose of this life is to be tested to see if we do the right thing and that the individual who gives out your grade for the test is not you but it is an all knowing God who has the authority to call time on the end of your test by dying.

“And it's more assumptions. Yes, Jehovah is morally bankrupt. I gave numerous example.”

What examples have you given that showed Jehovah doesn’t have the authority to call time on our on our lives and then later on gives judgment on how our remaining eternal existence will be?

That you put yourself in the same position as God? That’s like saying the state is morally bankrupt just because you haven’t sentenced someone to life in prison unlike the state.

“That doesn't mean I'm commenting on my own character. That doesn't mean I'm looking to excuse my own wrong doings. “

What is your proof that Jehovah never had authority to do what he did? What is your proof that you have the bigger picture in mind and God had no big picture in mind when Jehovah permitted at certain times under certain conditions for certain people to have slaves? How does Gid permitting to let innocent children die mean that God never treated those innocent lives with eternal happiness after their deaths?

How do you figure you can compare yourself to a God who can give new life after death when you haven’t proven that you can give new life to someone after their death?

Nivek001 · Mar 2, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
I had to fix your quotes for you.

Which quotes did you fix?

Nivek001 · Mar 2, 2021

halbhh said:
? Perhaps we have a miscommunication. It happens in the murky waters of internet communications ( ). I believe as laid out in the Apostles' Creed -- including the "resurrection of the body and the life everlasting", a useful summary (though a couple of lines near the end can need clarification, such as for instance that 'catholic' refers to the unity of all believers).

How is resurrection not considered to be given a new life but rather is just a part of this same life we have now? In order to be resurrected you have to die first.

Also, how is the apostles creed valid when there were no apostles involved in developing that creed?

Subduction Zone · Mar 2, 2021

Nivek001 said:
Which quotes did you fix?

The ones that you messed up on. Look at the post of yours that I responded to just before I told you to fix your quotes. Do you not see how you screwed up in your post?

Subduction Zone · Mar 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I don't see where you got the idea that Jesus said that he would be back. Jesus never said He was going to return to earth, not once in the entire New Testament. For seven years I have been asking Christians to provide even one verse wherein Jesus promised to return, and no Christian has ever provided one verse because it does not exist. The belief that the same man Jesus who was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven in His resurrected body would return in the same body is just a doctrinal Christian belief, it is not in the New Testament.

He actually did it quite a few times. When he was talking of his return he spoke of himself in the third or even fourth person as "the Son of Man".

Obviously Christians have misunderstood many Bible verses in order to come up with such a false belief.
Indeed, the man who would bring the Christ Spirit was slated to return in the end days, but that was not to be the same man Jesus as Christians believe. The prophecy did not fail at all because the Christ Spirit which was promised by Jesus returned with a new name.

Actually the prophecy failed no matter who's spin you put on it. He was to come back, or the messenger that you wanted t come, during the time that the disciples were still alive.

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

vāticinium ex ēventū (Ecclesiastical Latin: [wa:tiˈkini.um eks e:ˈwentu:], "prophecy from the event") or post eventum ("after the event") is a technical theological or historiographical term referring to a prophecy written after the author already had information about the events being "foretold". The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted. Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar to postdiction.

Of course a prophecy is written after the author already had information about the events being "foretold". Otherwise the author would not have been able to write the prophecy.

I do not know what this means "The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted." I do not know any prophecies that were written after the events that were predicted.

No, no, no. Some of the prophecies in the Bible were written after the fact at times. Again, that happens more often than not. It was not after the prophets supposedly knew. They were written as if the prophet did know, but there is no valid reason to believe that.

Deeje · Mar 2, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Well, I happen to agree with you. Paganism is responsible for many of the beliefs held by the RCC and Protestant religions from early on. Madonna and child is a direct rip-off of Osiris and Horus. The pagans didn't want to let go of their beliefs when they got into the RCC so they tricked the high up clergy into having artists paint the Virgin Mary and baby Jesus as substitutes for Osiris and Horus.
View attachment 48203

Yes...there is quite a list.....sun worship is seen in many aspects of Catholic worship to this day....
The wafer is in the shape of the sun....the Monstrance is also shaped like the sun.

The Babylonian sun wheel in the middle of St Peter's Square in the Vatican with an obelisk in the center representing Ra, the sun god which was brought all the way from Egypt.

The halos...or nimbus....and other sun symbols.

These are from the 'mother' church, but the mother has many daughters who all share her core beliefs, none of which come from God's word.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 2, 2021

@Nivek001
Just because someone has power doesn't mean they have the right, amd just because someone has authority doesn't mean their actions are right. The state is morally corrupt, and for many reasons. Jehovah is morally bankrupt due to his blood thirst and cruelty. He kills people for disobedience. We today have come a lomg ways since then, and we realize the punishment must be proportionate, amd we realizing the death penalty only serves as an incentive for more murder. We don't judge people for things they have no control over, amd we've learned fear of punishment is not an effective means of leadership.

Trailblazer · Mar 2, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Actually the prophecy failed no matter who's spin you put on it. He was to come back, or the messenger that you wanted t come, during the time that the disciples were still alive.

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

There are various Christian explanations for verse 28, and it does not necessarily mean what is commonly thought, that Christ will return during the lifetime of the disciples. The Son of Man does not refer to Jesus, it refers to Baha’u’llah, who was one like the Son of Man.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like a son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom was in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom was on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Subduction Zone said:
No, no, no. Some of the prophecies in the Bible were written after the fact at times. Again, that happens more often than not. It was not after the prophets supposedly knew. They were written as if the prophet did know, but there is no valid reason to believe that.

Okay, maybe some of them were written after the fact. The reason to think that they did know is because they were prophets and prophets can see into the future.

Subduction Zone · Mar 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
There are various Christian explanations for verse 28, and it does not necessarily mean what is commonly thought, that Christ will return during the lifetime of the disciples. The Son of Man does not refer to Jesus, it refers to Baha’u’llah, who was one like the Son of Man.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like a son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom was in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom was on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Okay, maybe some of them were written after the fact. The reason to think that they did know is because they were prophets and prophets can see into the future.

Please. lets' not play the cherry picking of verses game. Especially from John. You asked where the Bible said that Jesus was coming back and I showed you.

Nivek001 · Mar 2, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
The ones that you messed up on. Look at the post of yours that I responded to just before I told you to fix your quotes. Do you not see how you screwed up in your post?

No. How hard is it for you to copy and paste what you claimed?

Sand Dancer · Mar 2, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
that's a good question. Why doesn't he punish anybody? Why doesn't he get involved just a little?

I guess he is made up.

Subduction Zone · Mar 2, 2021

Use the back arrow to see how you screwed up this post of yours.

You should not be so rude when you screwed up in the first place.

EDIT: Dang it, because you screwed up your quotes this does not link back to your post @Nivek001

It was post 182 of this thread.

SeekingAllTruth · Mar 2, 2021

Thirza Fallen said:
I guess he is made up.

I have to go with He simply doesn't care to get involved.

Deeje · Mar 2, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
I have to go with He simply doesn't care to get involved.

And you would be somewhat correct....he will not interfere with our free willed choices. He is giving us all "enough rope"...but whether we hang ourselves with it or pull ourselves up out of the pit is up to us. He is standing back to allow all of us to make our choices without him forcing us to do anything.....all the while he has left us ample evidence of his love and care but many are too blind to see it.....too busy concentrating on what is wrong to see what is soooo right.

Humans wanted to "be like God" and make their own decisions about what is right and wrong...good and evil, so God stepped back to allow them to experience firsthand the outcome of that.....if he interfered to prevent them from reaping what they had sown, then they would never see the error of their ways. He would be working in opposition to himself.

He has never left us without his guidance. But to obey it or not, has to be our heartfelt choice....not for the reward and not out of fear of punishment.....but out of genuine love for who Jehovah is and why we are here.
Whatever happens here, he can undo the effects of it, and then replace all the bad memories with good ones, so that the lessons can be learned, but without lasting harm.

“Here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17)

Trailblazer · Mar 2, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Please. lets' not play the cherry picking of verses game. Especially from John. You asked where the Bible said that Jesus was coming back and I showed you.

No, the Son of Man does not refer to the same man Jesus, as can clearly be seen if you read the verses and what they actually say.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Moreover, the same Jesus could never have returned in the same body, because the physical body of Jesus died on the cross. Then the gospel writers tried to bring Jesus back to life by writing fictional stories, but Jesus was still as dead as a door-nail. That is why He could never return to earth. Moreover, Jesus never promised to return because His work was finished on earth. I think you have been hoodwinked by talking to so many Christians for so long.

Nivek001 · Mar 2, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
@Nivek001
“Just because someone has power doesn't mean they have the right, amd just because someone has authority doesn't mean their actions are right.”

I wasn’t talking about power. I was talking about authority. Also just because you say that God is bloodthirsty for taking lives of the disobedient does not prove that God is bloodthirsty and neither does you saying that God is bloodthirsty and wicked does not prove God does not have the authority to take the lives of the disobedient.

Why do you ignore the point that it’s believed that God makes it so that we all will die and that death is a natural part of this life? You just go on insisting that God ordered whole cities to be wiped out and that somehow makes God not have any authority to take our lives and punish us for eternity.. Where is your proof that God has no such authority to take any of our lives and pass eternal judgements?

Where is your proof that we never agreed to take God’s offering to give us a chance to have a perfect state of existence, like he has, and to do that we needed to come to this earth in mortality to be subject to trials and tribulations and then being tested to see if we do what is right despite those trials and tribulations, which that test ends with our deaths?

How does you saying “Jehovah is morally bankrupt due to his blood thirst and cruelty” prove that God has a blood thirst and is cruel as opposed to merely passing judgement like any state does?

Who are you to judge that those who were disobedient did not deserve to die, even though they would die eventually anyway if they were not disobedient? How is that even a point? How many times is it required to point out to you that we all will die whether we are obedient or not.

“He kills people for disobedience.”

It’s believed God makes us all die.

“We today have come a lomg ways since then,”

What is your proof that you really have come a long way and actually recognize that the punishment is not proportionate when it comes to the bigger picture of eternity and what one’s eternal existence will be like?

“..,we realizing the death penalty only serves as an incentive for more murder.”

Does that apply for humanity, who are imperfect and cannot fully or properly judge, or does that apply to a perfect being who is all knowing and has a picture in mind that is far bigger than any of humanity can picture because humanity is not all knowing?

“We don't judge people for things they have no control over,”

Where do you get that idea from? We judge people we have no control over all the time. Where do you figure juries come from? Juries make judgements on individuals they themselves claim to have no control over when a crime is committed.

A person has free will or agency to make choices and when a wrong choice is made , like committing a crime, the person pays the consequences for the choice they made.

The same applies to God judging us as well. We are given free agency and when we are accountable for our actions and take the wrong actions willingly, there is a punishment.

Where is your proof that the punishments God makes, that are not merely regarding this mortal life but for all eternity, are not justified?

So far, all you given is just what you see regarding only this life and nothing more. You haven’t even established that you do know what is important criteria regarding one’s eternal state.

Hockeycowboy · Mar 2, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
Because judgement, punishments, wrath, anger, we see that side 9f Jehovah very frequently.

“Frequently “?

Is that what King David thought? Not according to Psalms 103:8, “Jehovah is merciful and compassionate,*
Slow to anger and abundant in loyal love.*”
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/19/103#study=discover

Why did Jehovah at times kill? Again, Psalm 107 gives us the answer, at Psalms 106:37-40...

Shadow Wolf said:
He's such a sadist he even allegedly sent his own son to be tortured to death.

Was Jesus ‘kicking and screaming’ against it, or was he willing?

And in the future, the consequences of his death, the blessings, might affect you in ways you can’t imagine.

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