These Vaccines Work Really Well

Saint Frankenstein · Mar 1, 2021

That's nice, but I'm still not getting the vaccine(s). If I end up having to be a total hermit because of it, that's fine because that's mostly how I prefer to live my life, anyway. I never wanted to go on a cruise, anyway.

My job can require it and then fire me over it, too. Big whoop. I've quit from that company before. No one wants to actually work there as it is, so they can have good luck with that.

Saint Frankenstein · Mar 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I will tell you right now that I do not trust allopathic medicine for as far as I can throw an elephant.

Same. I don't trust Big Pharma at all. They wrecked my mental health for half my life with their useless psych drugs and even caused me to have grand mal seizures for a couple of years which left me with a painful bone injury that I will have for the rest of my life, if I don't have surgery on it which comes with its own complications. I don't believe a thing they say as it's all about money. Moderna might as well be the mafia, with its sordid history, for instance. People can think what they please but I have my reasons. I own my body and no one else. If anyone doesn't like it, they can stay away from me, which suits me just fine.

halbhh · Mar 1, 2021

exchemist said:
New data, just made public in the UK, shows a dramatic drop - over 80% - in hospitalisations and deaths among the over 80s. These were the first group to have all been given a first dose of either Pfizer or Oxford/AstraZeneca , a process that was completed just over a month ago: Covid vaccines cut risk of serious illness by 80% in over-80s

There seems little doubt that even one dose has a dramatic protective effect. This vindicates the decision of the UK authorities to give out single doses first, and to give the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine to all, even the very old who were not well represented in the original trial data. The UK has now vaccinated (single dose) 20 million people, a third of the population - and steaming ahead.

What we are waiting to see next is whether, as the vaccination programme spreads out into the more socially active, and less well shielded, younger segments of the population, the vaccines also reduce the number of +ve test results. That would be evidence that they not only reduce serious disease but also reduce the rate of spread of mild or asymptomatic infections too. That's a much harder thing to prove, but we should quite soon begin to see effects.

But this is very encouraging so far.

P.S. Take-up rate in the UK is well above expectations too. The Brits love - and trust - their National Health Service.

Such an enjoyable set of things to read! I hadn't realized the UK was going so fast. That's so great.

sun rise · Mar 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
It is not known what the harm is yet.

How will you decide that there's no harm?

Duke_Leto · Mar 1, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
Same. I don't trust Big Pharma at all. They wrecked my mental health for half my life with their useless psych drugs and even caused me to have grand mal seizures for a couple of years which left me with a painful bone injury that I will have for the rest of my life, if I don't have surgery on it which comes with its own complications. I don't believe a thing they say as it's all about money. Moderna might as well be the mafia, with its sordid history, for instance. People can think what they please but I have my reasons. I own my body and no one else. If anyone doesn't like it, they can stay away from me, which suits me just fine.

What do you mean Big Pharma ruined your health? Don't you trust the science? Don't you know they had thousands of studies proving their drugs were safe? Would the government have certified that these drugs were safe if they weren't?

In all seriousness one of the more disturbing things to come from the lockdowns has been people acting like science can't be made political, and hasn't been made so. I absolutely don't trust the vaccine myself, and given how long vaccines ordinarily take to produce people ought to be a lot more worried that these are jumping straight off the shelf, especially when they're using experimental technology.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
They always push us to get the flu vaccine but I never got it and I never got the flu. The same applies to my husband. Meanwhile, I know people who got the flu vaccine but they still got the flu.

Not all flues are the same, and the flu vaccine doesn't protect against all strains, just the ones you're more likely to come across.

Trailblazer · Mar 1, 2021

sun rise said:
So I hope you'll think about what will overcome your reluctance.

Thanks, I really do not have much reluctance, I just never have much time before another cat gets sick

and cats always come before me or my husband.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 1, 2021

Debater Slayer said:
These vaccines were developed and released extraordinarily fast compared to previous ones. While doing proper research online should clear up misconceptions about them and explain why that is, it is largely intuitive to be skeptical of something released so unprecedently fast.

I hope your neighbor doesn't die from the virus over his mistaken but understandable belief. Your statement really surprised me given its extremely uncharacteristic lack of empathy.

At this point, it's a lack of empathy that questions masks, that doesn't distance, is still holding out when we've seen now many, many people with the vaccine, and vaccines in general we have so thoroughly, vigorously, rigorously, and extensively tested and researched that we know they are very generally safe.

Trailblazer · Mar 1, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
Same. I don't trust Big Pharma at all. They wrecked my mental health for half my life with their useless psych drugs and even caused me to have grand mal seizures for a couple of years which left me with a painful bone injury that I will have for the rest of my life, if I don't have surgery on it which comes with its own complications

Tell me about it.

Those psych drugs pretty near killed me and I would probably be dead by now if I hadn't been in the right place at the right time in 1988 and found about homeopathy from a Baha'i in my community who had been a manic-depressive all his life until he found homeopathy, was completely cured, and never had to take one more drug. Before homeopathic treatment he was unable to work at all but by the time I met him he was fulling functioning as a teacher.

My best friend who is a Baha'i lives in Ohio. We never met in person, I only converse with him in e-mails and on forums. He was depressed a few years ago so he went to a psychiatrist who prescribed Haldol and he was a real mess for a very long time. I think he finally got off Haldol but he has Tardive dyskinesia from being on it so now he has to take another drug to treat that for the rest of his life and his memory has also been affected. The drug he takes is very expensive and he is on a fixed income but he got a grant to pay for it, but if he had not gotten that grant he would never have been able to afford the drug even though he has Medicare.

I tried to stop him for taking what the psychiatrist would prescribe but he would not listen to me, he just did not want to be depressed, and that was not even the correct drug to treat depression so he was still depressed, just too sedated to know it.

Most people in this country are so ignorant about the damage these drugs can do. They just want a quick fix for their depression and/or anxiety and they believe what doctors tell them. It is really sad.

Debater Slayer · Mar 1, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Tell me about it. Those psych drugs pretty near killed me and I would probably be dead by now if I hadn't been in the right place at the right time in 1988 and found about homeopathy from a Baha'i in my community who had been a manic- depressive all his life until he found homeopathy, was completely cured, and never had to take one more drug. Before homeopathic treatment he was unable to work at all but by the time I met him he was fulling functioning as a teacher.

My best friend who is a Baha'i lives in Ohio. We never met in person, I only converse with him in e-mails and on forums. He was depressed a few years ago so he went to a psychiatrist who prescribed Haldol and he was a real mess for a very long time. I think he finally got off Haldol but he has Tardive dyskinesia from being on it so now he has to take another drug to treat that for the rest of his life and his memory has also been affected. The drug he takes is very expensive and he is on a fixed income but he got a grant to pay for it, but if he had not gotten that grant he would never have been able to afford the drug even though he has Medicare.

I tried to stop him for taking what the psychiatrist would prescribe but he would not listen to me, he just did not want to be depressed, and that was not even the correct drug to treat depression so he was still depressed, just too sedated to know it.

Most people in this country are so ignorant about the damage these drugs can do. They just want a quick fix for their depression and/or anxiety and they believe what doctors tell them. It is really sad.

Since we're mentioning personal anecdotes, I went to six psychiatrists and one homeopath over the course of three years. The first five psychiatrists misdiagnosed me and almost killed me by aggravating my suicidal ideation and depression with unsuitable prescriptions. The homeopath also almost killed me, but that was because she simply wasn't helpful at all and charged too much for nothing while I was in a severely suicidal state.

I knew homeopathy was a pseudoscience but was so desperate for treatment at the time that I still gave it a shot. After seven months of no improvement, the homeopath told me we shouldn't continue the "treatment" because it wasn't helping. I'll grant she was at least honest at that point. It was only when I saw my sixth psychiatrist that I started getting better: he diagnosed me properly (as evidenced by my improvement on his treatment) and finally got my prescription right after several adjustments.

There are many unethical and incompetent people in any field, including medicine, but nobody benefits from letting that color their entire view of a given field or allowing it to make them glorify pseudoscience and demonstrably ineffective or harmful practices. After awful experiences with five psychiatrists, one homeopath, and 14 medications over the course of three years (i.e., until I met my current doctor), I would still go with tried-and-true vaccines and medications approved by scientific consensus over homeopathy any day of the week.

Trailblazer · Mar 1, 2021

sun rise said:
How will you decide that there's no harm?

I won't decide. Only time will tell. I am not really worried about taking the vaccine but just like everything I do I always dot my i's and cross my t's before I decide. That's why it took me so long to decide which prospective tenant to rent to, but waiting only cost me four days of rent and saved me from renting to the tenants who previously had two evictions.

Since my husband has severe asthma he will have to get the vaccine if he is ever going to go out again, so I will get it when he does.

Trailblazer · Mar 1, 2021

Debater Slayer said:
I knew homeopathy was a pseudoscience but was so desperate for treatment at the time that I still gave it a shot. After seven months of no improvement, the homeopath told me we shouldn't continue the "treatment" because it wasn't helping.

After five years of all the psycotropic drugs that were available at that time I was no better, just barely able to continue holding a job; but when I decided to go off those drugs, after one month of homeopathy I was a completely new person, never again depressed. I still have grief reactions from the many, many losses of my beloved cats but that is not abnormal, as my regular medical doctor told me.

All homeopaths are not as qualified as others. My homeopath was a licensed medical doctor who had practiced conventional medicine for 20 years before he became a homeopath. He was certified and taught homeopathy, he was not just someone who called himself a homeopath.

ChristineM · Mar 2, 2021

Quagmire said:
I could agree with the sentiment behind this if the vaccinations had been made mandatory. I'm guessing there were a few people who didn't quite understand the risk they were taking, but that's probably a very small minority.

My feeling on this is, hey somebody had to take point. I know it sounds cold, but to me it just makes sense that people at the end of their lives should go first, and since the vaccinations were voluntary I'm guessing a lot of the people we're talking about saw it the same way.

Myself, I'm just over 60, and I signed up for clinical trials for one of the lesser known (and most likely least tested) vaccines before there was any real certainty about their safety because, I figured: I'm 60+, I don't have any kids, I don't owe anybody any money , I've never had to fight a war, live through a major economic depression, an ice age, invasion by space aliens, or a zombie apocalypse (although I have to admit I'm kind of disappointed about that last one).

Relative to almost anyone you want to point too through out all of human history I've had a pretty cushy life so far.

If I can do something to make the world a little more certain and safer for the rest of my species, I kind of feel like I have a responsibility to do so even if there's a little bit of risk.

That said I haven't been called up for the trials yet.

This is not the point i was making. The UK government went ahead with vaccinations before data was available using a drug that had nor been approved. To my understand talking to relatives and friends who were in thst first batch, both the lack of approval and the lack of data was not provided to those having the vaccine. So informed consent was incomplete and extremely dubious.

It was unknown if the vaccine could have side effects on the older age group not seen on those of the tests.

Yes they have lived most their lives but does that mean risks should be taken with the time they have remaining?

Now this is my personal view, Boris and co. have made such a mess of their management of Covid (on a par with Trump) that they had nothing to loose by taking a risk and administering the vaccine ahead of countries who sensibly waited for medical approval on the change of gaining some credibility from the british public

ChristineM · Mar 2, 2021

lewisnotmiller said:
We took a more conservative approach here. Happily, we can now look forwards with some confidence, based on results in other nations.
Our rollout has really just begun in earnest, but strict lockdowns when needed have kept the diseases health impacts lower than in most countries.

France had a very slow rollout but is now getting itself in ti top gear. The start of the good results seen in the uk is just beginning to show on the covid statistics with the R number dropping, a drop in cases and less needing icu.

exchemist · Mar 2, 2021

halbhh said:
Such an enjoyable set of things to read! I hadn't realized the UK was going so fast. That's so great.

Yeah, having screwed up massively in the control of the epidemic, one thing the UK has got right is the vaccination, largely because that has been in the hands of professionals (universities, Big Pharma, health service), rather than our government of Brexitty 3rd raters.

In fact though, quite against the run of play, there was one brilliant appointment that Bozo made, which was a woman called Kate Bingham*, who was put in charge of vaccine procurement. She just wrote cheques, early on, to the vaccine developers, promising to buy their vaccines whether they worked or not. This gave them the financial security to run trials and work up production in parallel, something normally unheard of. It also helps to have a unitary, state-run, not-for-profit health system. That has enabled the roll-out to take place rapidly and effectively, without worrying about contracts and accountancy.

And lastly, the people by and large trust the NHS, so we don't have anything like the resistance to being vaccinated that you see in a lot of other places, where politicians have undermined trust in science and played political games with the issue.

It's good to see something go right at last in this country.

*If there's any justice, she'll get a gong out of this.

exchemist · Mar 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I'd be all for it if that would get my husband out of the house and into society.

Well it can do that. You just need to wait 3 weeks for it to become fully effective. And don't worry about side effects, long or short term. It's just a vaccination. Those of us who have been international business travellers are quite used to getting jabs for this, that and the other thing, at regular intervals. Millions have now had the vaccinations and there are no reports of any issues. You may feel feverish for a day and have a sore spot on your arm for a week. That's all.

exchemist · Mar 2, 2021

Secret Chief said:
Yeah obviously no choice, but effective and free. I've read the Pfizer has less side fx and less common; I've certainly had none and neither has my partner (whose first time flu jab made her really quite poorly the other week).

Yes, I've heard the same.

I've had a lot of vaccinations over the years because of my job, which involved a lot of international travel, often to dodgy parts of the world. They vary a lot in how they make you feel afterwards. I found the Oxford/AstraZeneca one was towards the upper end of the range in terms of side-effects, making me feel shivery, achy and short of energy the following day, as if I had a touch of flu. But nothing out of the ordinary, compared to all the typhoid, cholera, diphtheria, tetanus and yellow fever jabs I've had, down the years.

exchemist · Mar 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
How can they show that those people who did not get vaccinations would have gotten Covid-19 if they had not gotten the vaccination? That is the hundred-dollar question.

Because the number of over 80s turning up at hospitals all over Britain has dropped like a stone, since the vaccination programme kicked in. Before, the ICUs were full of old people, gasping out their last breaths. Now, the number of over 80s coming in* has reduced to a trickle, in the space of a month.

There is no other possible explanation than that it is the vaccine protecting them.

* The ICUs are still quite full, but that's because we've got better at keeping people alive, so they stay in the ICU for a lot longer than before. (The poor doctors and nurses are exhausted.)

exchemist · Mar 2, 2021

Trailblazer said:
They always push us to get the flu vaccine but I never got it and I never got the flu. The same applies to my husband. Meanwhile, I know people who got the flu vaccine but they still got the flu.

Just a word about flu vaccines:-

With flu, there are always several strains in circulation around the world. Every year, the WHO and national medical authorities have to make a call as to which one will be most prevalent in the coming N hemisphere winter season. They have to make the call 6 months ahead, to give time for the vaccines to be manufactured and distributed in time. So it's a tricky decision to have to make.

Some winters they call it right and the vaccine is highly effective at stopping people getting ill. Some years they call it wrong, or else there may be several versions of flu going round at once, only one of which the chosen vaccine works on effectively. So that's why you get these anecdotes of people getting vaccinated for flu and still getting ill, etc.

With this new virus we are only just starting to see the emergence of different varieties (Kent version, Brazil version, S Africa version) but we know the vaccines work really well against the dominant strains, and evidence is coming in that they also work reasonably well, if not quite as well, on most of the new variants too. So we can be far more confident about vaccine effectiveness than we usually are with annual flu vaccination.

(They are now working on a top-up series of vaccines, optimised against the new variants, for release next autumn, to ensure we can stay on top of it next season.)

Secret Chief · Mar 2, 2021

@exchemist
You're more informative than the Beeb.

These Vaccines Work Really Well

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