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Funny things Atheist say:

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yes. Or at least a big part of it. But that doesn't change the fact that having a rational opinion...and more particularly voicing it...has not been the path to the longest possible life in certain situations (which is all I'm stating). In other situations it has helped. And in an evolutionary sense, it often seems 'neutral', and much less impactful than other traits or behaviours.

I think we might disagree on what is rational: Speaking your opinion, whatever it is, among people that can kill you for it, and you know it, is not rational, assuming you don't want to get killed.

Negative outcome in an evolutionary sense. Reduced life expectancy, reduced likelihood of procreation, reduced outcomes for progeny.

Rather than both, I might say 'either'. It's very circumstantial.
Being Jewish in 1940 Germany was impactful on my likelihood to die young much more than rationality, and I wouldn't be convinced rationality added anything to my life expectancy, nor to the sort of outcomes my children may have, assuming I had any.

If you are talking about human beings as a whole, it is being, somewhat, rational that allowed us to remain atop the food chains. And it is being rational that will allow us to remain alive.

If you are talking about individuals, let's just say that remaining in nazi Germany as a jew, out of one's own volition, is not an example of rationality.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
It's neither funny nore an argument.
It's just a fact.

Atheism is not a belief.
Theism is the belief.
Atheism is when you don't hold theistic beliefs.

Whatever else you do believe, is irrelevant to the "atheist" label.



Indeed.



//facepalm

Agnosticism is, insofar as it is related to beliefs, a qualifier of beliefs. Not some "alternative" position.

Hi, I'm an agnostic atheist.




Indeed it does not. It pertains to knowledge - not beliefs.
Which is why it's not some "alternative" to the question of belief.
You either believe in god or you don't. It's a pretty binary question. Yes / no. Theist / atheist.



Off course atheists have beliefs. We, like all people, believe many things.
None of which however is defacto included in atheism. Atheism only means that in the great set of things an individual believes - gods aren't part of it.

The set might or might not include the claim that no gods exist. That won't affect the atheist label.
What affects the atheist label is not believing theistic claims. That's it.



No arguments do, because there are no affirmations to support.

Apologies, if I misunderstood your position.
Rather than have a pointless conversation about meaning that will leave most of the readers here reading in circles, I'll simply ask, which of the following best describes someone who believes there are no gods:
1. Theist
2. Agnostic
3. Atheist

If you object to the options, then simply specify the word you would use to describe someone who believes there are no gods. I am happy to use such a word so that there will be no misunderstandings between us.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Apologies, if I misunderstood your position.
Rather than have a pointless conversation about meaning that will leave most of the readers here reading in circles, I'll simply ask, which of the following best describes someone who believes there are no gods:
1. Theist
2. Agnostic
3. Atheist

In context of the post you reply to, this is a dishonest question.
In context of that post, the answer is none.

At best one could say that the label atheist is compatible with someone who makes the claim that no gods exist. But the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of atheists (in my experience) do not make that claim at all. Doesn't make them any less atheist.

Also, the post you are replying to also explains how "2. agnostic" doesn't belong in that list. It's not an alternative to the other two and it doesn't even address the question of belief.

If you object to the options, then simply specify the word you would use to describe someone who believes there are no gods

Gnostic atheist.
Aka "strong atheism".
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
In context of the post you reply to, this is a dishonest question.
In context of that post, the answer is none.

At best one could say that the label atheist is compatible with someone who makes the claim that no gods exist. But the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of atheists (in my experience) do not make that claim at all. Doesn't make them any less atheist.

Also, the post you are replying to also explains how "2. agnostic" doesn't belong in that list. It's not an alternative to the other two and it doesn't even address the question of belief.



Gnostic atheist.
Aka "strong atheism".

Some "gnostic atheists" aka "strong atheists" aka "people who believe that there are no gods" say some funny things... such as using agnostic arguments as if they support their point of view.

Some people say things such as "Atheism is not a belief."
A common reason for such a statement is the lumping of agnosticism into atheism. A process that can lead people to erroneously think that agnostic arguments support their "gnostic atheist" or "strong atheist" beliefs.

Your accusations of dishonesty are not appreciated, especially so since I made the effort to make my arguments clear to you. I think you call yourself an "atheist" or "agnostic atheist", but I would appreciate it if you stopped going to great effort to befuddle basic questions, claims, and arguments or to misconstrue what I, or others, might say.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Some "gnostic atheists" aka "strong atheists" aka "people who believe that there are no gods" say some funny things... such as using agnostic arguments as if they support their point of view.

Some people say things such as "Atheism is not a belief."
A common reason for such a statement is the lumping of agnosticism into atheism. A process that can lead people to erroneously think that agnostic arguments support their "gnostic atheist" or "strong atheist" beliefs.

Your accusations of dishonesty are not appreciated, especially so since I made the effort to make my arguments clear to you. I think you call yourself an "atheist" or "agnostic atheist", but I would appreciate it if you stopped going to great effort to befuddle basic questions, claims, and arguments or to misconstrue what I, or others, might say.
I am sure that you have been told this, but most agnostics are atheists.

Gnosticism is about what people claim to know. Theism is about what one believes or in the case of atheism, has a lack of belief in. Most theists are gnostic since they claim to "know" that God exists and the God that exists is their own, not that of other religions.

For some reason many theists do not want to understand this simple concept. I guess that is because they have to rely on strawman arguments to attempt to counter atheism.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Some "gnostic atheists" aka "strong atheists" aka "people who believe that there are no gods" say some funny things... such as using agnostic arguments as if they support their point of view.

Do they?
Can you give some examples?


Some people say things such as "Atheism is not a belief."

And those people are correct.

A common reason for such a statement is the lumping of agnosticism into atheism.

We've been over this. Agnosticism pertains to knowledge. Atheism pertains to theistic belief. They are not mutually exclusive. Instead, they are different answers to different questions.

One addresses the question of knowledge, the other addresses the question of belief.


A process that can lead people to erroneously think that agnostic arguments support their "gnostic atheist" or "strong atheist" beliefs.


Who are these people?


Your accusations of dishonesty are not appreciated

Your refusal to fix your errors isn't either.
When you have already been notified of an error and then simply continue to repeat it, what do you call it?

, especially so since I made the effort to make my arguments clear to you

And by doing so, you keep repeating the same error, eventhough it's been corrected multiple times already.


I think you call yourself an "atheist" or "agnostic atheist", but I would appreciate it if you stopped going to great effort to befuddle basic questions, claims, and arguments or to misconstrue what I, or others, might say.

Don't repeat errors that have already been addressed and I wouldn't have to.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Do they?
Can you give some examples?




And those people are correct.



We've been over this. Agnosticism pertains to knowledge. Atheism pertains to theistic belief. They are not mutually exclusive. Instead, they are different answers to different questions.

One addresses the question of knowledge, the other addresses the question of belief.





Who are these people?




Your refusal to fix your errors isn't either.
When you have already been notified of an error and then simply continue to repeat it, what do you call it?



And by doing so, you keep repeating the same error, eventhough it's been corrected multiple times already.




Don't repeat errors that have already been addressed and I wouldn't have to.

It was not my intention to call out specific individuals, to make fun of them, to accuse them of dishonesty, or make "examples" of them. I took this as a thread to talk about arguments that are funny. If you agree that such an argument is funny, that suffices. If you do not... well, that is fine as well.

I will point out what Chistopher Hitchens, a famous atheist, had to say. Perhaps you can offer your opinion.
There is a terminological problem here which may conceal more than just terminological difficulty. The proposition that atheism is true or - that is a misstatement of what I have to prove and what we believe. There is an argument among some of us as to whether we need the word at all. In other words, I don't have a special name for my unbelief in toothfairies, say, or witches, or in Santa Claus. I just don't think that they're there. I don't have to prove atoothfairyism. I don't have to prove asantaclausism. I don't have to prove awitchism. It's just, I have to say, I think that those who do believe these things have never been able to make a plausible or intelligible case for doing so. That's not agnosticism because it seems to me that if you don't think there is any evidence, you're wrong to take refuge in saying you're neutral. You ought to have the courage to answer the question which one is regularly asked, "Are you an atheist or not?" Yes, I will say, I am. You can't tell anything else about me. You can't tell anything else about what I think, about what I believe, about what my politics are or my other convictions. It's just that I don't believe in the existence of a supernatural dimension, and I've never been shown any evidence that any process observable to us cannot be explained by more satisfactory and more convincing means.​
From a debate between Chistopher Hitchens and William Lane Craig
Also, Chistopher Hitchens said this:
In your first round, Doctor, you said that N.T. Wright, who is an impressive person, says that "no explanation of the success of Christianity is possible that doesn't rest on the terms of its being true." In other words, Wright says it was so successful, it must have been that the people were so strongly motivated to believe it, that is must have been true. I regard that as a very, very unsafe assumption. Or, if it is a safe one, then it must surely apply to Islam and to Mormonism.​
Chistopher Hitchens' has made similar remarks in other places as well and other atheists have made similar remarks. It is some degree of work to track down every particular statement a person makes, so I won't. You will have to go do some actual work yourself and find the arguments, if, in fact, you have a deep enough interest in the matter.

I understand that you are feeling some sort of need to "correct" my thinking. But it is misplaced. I suggest that you overcome your terminology problems.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It was not my intention to call out specific individuals, to make fun of them, to accuse them of dishonesty, or make "examples" of them. I took this as a thread to talk about arguments that are funny. If you agree that such an argument is funny, that suffices. If you do not... well, that is fine as well.

I will point out what Chistopher Hitchens, a famous atheist, had to say. Perhaps you can offer your opinion.
There is a terminological problem here which may conceal more than just terminological difficulty. The proposition that atheism is true or - that is a misstatement of what I have to prove and what we believe. There is an argument among some of us as to whether we need the word at all. In other words, I don't have a special name for my unbelief in toothfairies, say, or witches, or in Santa Claus. I just don't think that they're there. I don't have to prove atoothfairyism. I don't have to prove asantaclausism. I don't have to prove awitchism. It's just, I have to say, I think that those who do believe these things have never been able to make a plausible or intelligible case for doing so. That's not agnosticism because it seems to me that if you don't think there is any evidence, you're wrong to take refuge in saying you're neutral. You ought to have the courage to answer the question which one is regularly asked, "Are you an atheist or not?" Yes, I will say, I am. You can't tell anything else about me. You can't tell anything else about what I think, about what I believe, about what my politics are or my other convictions. It's just that I don't believe in the existence of a supernatural dimension, and I've never been shown any evidence that any process observable to us cannot be explained by more satisfactory and more convincing means.​
From a debate between Chistopher Hitchens and William Lane Craig
Also, Chistopher Hitchens said this:
In your first round, Doctor, you said that N.T. Wright, who is an impressive person, says that "no explanation of the success of Christianity is possible that doesn't rest on the terms of its being true." In other words, Wright says it was so successful, it must have been that the people were so strongly motivated to believe it, that is must have been true. I regard that as a very, very unsafe assumption. Or, if it is a safe one, then it must surely apply to Islam and to Mormonism.​
Chistopher Hitchens' has made similar remarks in other places as well and other atheists have made similar remarks. It is some degree of work to track down every particular statement a person makes, so I won't. You will have to go do some actual work yourself and find the arguments, if, in fact, you have a deep enough interest in the matter.

I understand that you are feeling some sort of need to "correct" my thinking. But it is misplaced. I suggest that you overcome your terminology problems.

In general I agree with these quotes from The Hitch. So what is your question?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
It was not my intention to call out specific individuals, to make fun of them, to accuse them of dishonesty, or make "examples" of them. I took this as a thread to talk about arguments that are funny. If you agree that such an argument is funny, that suffices. If you do not... well, that is fine as well.

I will point out what Chistopher Hitchens, a famous atheist, had to say. Perhaps you can offer your opinion.
There is a terminological problem here which may conceal more than just terminological difficulty. The proposition that atheism is true or - that is a misstatement of what I have to prove and what we believe. There is an argument among some of us as to whether we need the word at all. In other words, I don't have a special name for my unbelief in toothfairies, say, or witches, or in Santa Claus. I just don't think that they're there. I don't have to prove atoothfairyism. I don't have to prove asantaclausism. I don't have to prove awitchism. It's just, I have to say, I think that those who do believe these things have never been able to make a plausible or intelligible case for doing so. That's not agnosticism because it seems to me that if you don't think there is any evidence, you're wrong to take refuge in saying you're neutral. You ought to have the courage to answer the question which one is regularly asked, "Are you an atheist or not?" Yes, I will say, I am. You can't tell anything else about me. You can't tell anything else about what I think, about what I believe, about what my politics are or my other convictions. It's just that I don't believe in the existence of a supernatural dimension, and I've never been shown any evidence that any process observable to us cannot be explained by more satisfactory and more convincing means.​
From a debate between Chistopher Hitchens and William Lane Craig
Also, Chistopher Hitchens said this:
In your first round, Doctor, you said that N.T. Wright, who is an impressive person, says that "no explanation of the success of Christianity is possible that doesn't rest on the terms of its being true." In other words, Wright says it was so successful, it must have been that the people were so strongly motivated to believe it, that is must have been true. I regard that as a very, very unsafe assumption. Or, if it is a safe one, then it must surely apply to Islam and to Mormonism.​
Chistopher Hitchens' has made similar remarks in other places as well and other atheists have made similar remarks. It is some degree of work to track down every particular statement a person makes, so I won't. You will have to go do some actual work yourself and find the arguments, if, in fact, you have a deep enough interest in the matter.

I understand that you are feeling some sort of need to "correct" my thinking. But it is misplaced. I suggest that you overcome your terminology problems.
What, exactly, makes the comments you quoted "funny"?
 
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