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What is the difference?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
But covering up because of religious belief is bad?

Depends. There's many aspects to this so one can't simply generalize this.

There's the social aspect. In that sense niqaabs and burqa's, I would say, are indeed bad things. You effectively isolate yourself socially and make it extremely difficult to socially interact with others. You also destroy a whole bunch of job opportunities. That in turn will also cause personal issues.

Then there's also what I like to call "the tribal aspect".
I feel like in many cases, "religious clothing" is worn as if it is some kind of uniform. Like gang colors or something. The motivation then is not "to be humble" or whatever. It's instead just to let everyone know you belong to religious team X. Which in turn creates an "us and them" type situation.

This is not exclusive to muslims by any means.
When I walk around in Antwerp and cross the orthodox jewish neighbourhoods... I see them all walking around in their "costume" and the feeling I get is that I am "unwelcome" in a social sense. I feel very uninvited to converse with them or socially interact with them in general. By wearing their "gang colors" that way, they create their own little club and give people the feeling that you have to dress like them before socializing with them. This is the social isolation I was talking about. It creates an "us and them" world, which only leads to division - which never is a good thing society wise.

So is it "bad"? Not by default I guess. It all depends
However, I consider it 100% unnecessary and, in a lot of cases, socially unhealthy.


(all this was written from a free western secular perspective)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes it is an inner struggle and the path to God is the path to be stronger minded to never do wrong action words and thoughts. For a spiritual person the "need" For the physical world become less and less. Yes one must still live in this world until death get us. But if we are strong in our faith and belief in God it become more easy to not be tempted to do wrong to other or self.

I feel like you didn't address the points I raised at all.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Depends. There's many aspects to this so one can't simply generalize this.

There's the social aspect. In that sense niqaabs and burqa's, I would say, are indeed bad things. You effectively isolate yourself socially and make it extremely difficult to socially interact with others. You also destroy a whole bunch of job opportunities. That in turn will also cause personal issues.

Then there's also what I like to call "the tribal aspect".
I feel like in many cases, "religious clothing" is worn as if it is some kind of uniform. Like gang colors or something. The motivation then is not "to be humble" or whatever. It's instead just to let everyone know you belong to religious team X. Which in turn creates an "us and them" type situation.

This is not exclusive to muslims by any means.
When I walk around in Antwerp and cross the orthodox jewish neighbourhoods... I see them all walking around in their "costume" and the feeling I get is that I am "unwelcome" in a social sense. I feel very uninvited to converse with them or socially interact with them in general. By wearing their "gang colors" that way, they create their own little club and give people the feeling that you have to dress like them before socializing with them. This is the social isolation I was talking about. It creates an "us and them" world, which only leads to division - which never is a good thing society wise.

So is it "bad"? Not by default I guess. It all depends
However, I consider it 100% unnecessary and, in a lot of cases, socially unhealthy.


(all this was written from a free western secular perspective)
When you say you feel unwelcome, have you tried speaking with those ortodox jews? Maybe they are fantastic people you would like
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Well off course.
We live and interact with others in the outside world.

That's where social life takes place and since we are discussing social interaction................................
:) my social interaction is 90% online. I am very happy alone, not much need for the life with a lot of people around me.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
When you say you feel unwelcome, have you tried speaking with those ortodox jews? Maybe they are fantastic people you would like

I wouldn't have a clue what to say to them.

I did on occasion to ask for directions or the time or similar.
They were very short and very uninviting for further chit-chat.

A couple of times, I was also completely ignored. Like, literally. Not even acknowledged that I asked a question.
On another occasion, I went to one of their bakeries for a loaf of bread and found out he charged me double of his fellow jewish customers.

That off course has nothing to do with their "costume", but it all ties together off course.

The end result is that they create a closed and isolated community. And the signal they send out is to not engage them or socialize with them.
I can honestly also tell you that in all the years I went to school in Antwerp, pretty close to that neighbourhood, NOT ONCE did I ever see an orthodox jew talking with someone not part of their circle.

This is not true for girls / women with a hijab or muslim men with a beard. It's also not the case with non-orthodox jews who do not wear that "costume", but for example only a kepple (spelling?) or not even that.

It however IS true for girls / women in a niqaab or burqa or muslim men with a beard and such a traditional robe. You never see them talking to people not part of their "radical" circle. You also never see such "radicals" at work somewhere... except in their own inner circle companies, which is also only frequented by them.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Depends entirely on the rapist and what gets him off.



A walk in the park is not the equivalent of "going to war".

Let me ask you the reverse question about your morally bankrupt example...

Do you consider it less of a crime if the rapist rapes one or the other?
Do you consider the woman to be less of a victim if the rapist rapes on or the other?
Do you think the rapist's punishment should be different depending on which of both he rapes?

In short: do you think both rapes would be equivalent in every way? Or are you of the opinion that the "defense" of the rapist should include "softening circumstances" if the rape victim is the western women in a miniskirt and do you think the court should keep that into account when giving its verdict and eventual punishment?




I think this is absolutely disgusting victim-blaming nonsense.


Let's take this "logic" and drive it home, shall we?

2 men walk in the park. One wears regular western clothing. Jeans, shirt, sneakers. The other wears a traditional islamic middle eastern robe and has a long beard.

Who do you think is most likely to be beaten up if they cross violent racists?
Clearly, the one in the robe and with the beard, right?
So, therefor according to your logic, the one in the robe with the long beard is "putting himself in harms way".


Do you want me to draw the same analogy for orthodox jews, or do you get the sillyness of the point by now?

Complete non sequitur and straw man so ill save myself the time and not reply. Take that as a W if you want, i wont waste my time because I have had this conversation before with people that think and reply in the manner you did and it AWLAYS leads to a waste of time since that person has already made up their mind and willfully chose to ignore what was said and chose to twist what was said to fit their narrative.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I know some who do not like covid masks yes. Pushback on religious clothing is får more common, isn't it?

Possibly. Speaking only about what I've directly seen, I've seen more irritation about masks than headscarves.

Different story if we're talking about burqas or similar.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Complete non sequitur and straw man so ill save myself the time and not reply. Take that as a W if you want, i wont waste my time because I have had this conversation before with people that think and reply in the manner you did and it AWLAYS leads to a waste of time since that person has already made up their mind and willfully chose to ignore what was said and chose to twist what was said to fit their narrative.
Interesting how you avoid the difficult questions.
Even more interesting is how you try to make it HIS fault you avoid the difficult questions.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yes the quran do say it is correct practice for a female to cover their hair. To not create temptation for men. And to dress modesty

As a muslim man i should not even look at a woman on the street, because she is not for me :) and if she speak to me, eye-contact should be avoided
Why is that? Is it because Muslim men can't control themselves? All sorts of other men seem to manage that reasonably well.

Eye contact is one of the ways that we treat each other as equals, as peers. So are you saying no woman, except the one you're sleeping with, can ever be your equal and peer?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Hair is hair -- on a man, a woman or a dog (though we call it "fur" on a dog, it's the same stuff). It's made of keratin. If hair makes you horny, then you have fetish problem. If hair should be covered -- then all of it should be covered -- including the hair on your upper lip and chin. If you don't think those should be covered, make a rational argument.

I mean, really, there's your avatar with hair all over your head and your face and neck -- are you trawling for pickups? Why would you show all that stuff if it's so sinful and tempting?

And please, try to remember this most difficult proposition -- women can find men just as attractive as men can find women.

Isn't it time for religion to grow up?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Should this hair be covered up with a hijab? Why or why not?

bjorn-andresen-original-signed-autograph_1_eb752f92ef5f77f4d385f3c301f81756.jpg
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Why is that? Is it because Muslim men can't control themselves? All sorts of other men seem to manage that reasonably well.

Eye contact is one of the ways that we treat each other as equals, as peers. So are you saying no woman, except the one you're sleeping with, can ever be your equal and peer?
It has to do with being humble and it is wrong at Someone elses wife,sister and so on.

That does not mean og is wrong to look at a woman if she ask me questions. But no need to keep eyecontact for to long, it might seem wrong to do so.
 
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