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There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
What do you mean by "Christians who've descended?" We Jews descend as a people--born again Christians are individuals who trust, so because someone was healed a century before doesn't mean his great grandson will choose to trust Jesus for salvation.
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Understood. So, none of the children, grandchildren, etc. of the Jewish beleivers in Jesus continued in their ways. Thus, the reason why there aren't any Jews who claim to be descendants/i.e. have ancestry from the original Jewish Christians or the original Jewish Christians didn't have any children or grandchildren to pass anything to. Thanks for clearing that up.

BilliardsBall said:
Why didn't Herod or Caesar write their own records?
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Probably because they didn't consider history to be important. Maybe because they were looking to be forgoten. Maybe they thought their rule would be forever and didn't expect it to end, yet when it did they said, "Oh no! I can't beleive it's all over. Why didn't I take a different path?" If Roman history is to beleived Ceasar didn't exactly have the end he was expecting.

Are you saying that Jesus didn't write a gospel for the same reasons?
 
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Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
I was answering someone who questioned that many Jews followed/follow Jesus.

Many people follow the Communist Manifesto, many Jews follow the NT, also written by Jews.
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Yes, I know. You seemed to indicate that it's legitimate for Jews to follow the NT/Jesus simply because much of the NT was written by Jews/Jesus was Jewish. Not a very strong case.
 
Left Coast

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
Claim: Countless millions of deep intellectuals--scientists, professors, etc. are Jewish or Christian and expect a literal Messiah to appear at The Mount.

Answer: For millennia, people have believed in a literal Return of Christ, for example, as in Acts 1:9.
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Yes, you made a specific claim about those people.

Formerly, there was no western science or academia that was irreligious.
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Formerly, there was no Western science at all. And literate people, let alone "academics," were a tiny minority. And public doctrinal dissent was illegal.

And your claim was present tense anyway.

Currently, millions of intelligent people are atheists, others are devout Christian literalists.
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Intelligence is not education.

So, no actual evidence for your claim here.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Ehav4Ever said:
Understood. So, none of the children, grandchildren, etc. of the Jewish beleivers in Jesus continued in their ways. Thus, the reason why there aren't any Jews who claim to be descendants/i.e. have ancestry from the original Jewish Christians or the original Jewish Christians didn't have any children or grandchildren to pass anything to. Thanks for clearing that up.



Probably because they didn't consider history to be important. Maybe because they were looking to be forgoten. Maybe they thought their rule would be forever and didn't expect it to end, yet when it did they said, "Oh no! I can't beleive it's all over. Why didn't I take a different path?" If Roman history is to beleived Ceasar didn't exactly have the end he was expecting.

Are you saying that Jesus didn't write a gospel for the same reasons?
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That's not a refutation. 1) Through history, there are also Jewish people who didn't continue the line of descent but left the community and assimilated with Gentiles, or changed theology, or followed a different school, like the Hillel and Shammai tensions. 2) There are several billion people who identify as Christian, so that is untrue, but my point was Judaism and Christianity are groups one may be born into while being born again as a Jew or Gentile is for individuals to choose. 3) Descent in general is a weak argument--not all of Abraham's descendants, or Issac's, were chosen, etc.

I'm not saying Jesus refused to write a gospel because of such a spurious reason, nor do I accept your argument from silence. I'm rather saying kings don't write their own histories, their servants write them.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Harel13 said:
Yes, I know. You seemed to indicate that it's legitimate for Jews to follow the NT/Jesus simply because much of the NT was written by Jews/Jesus was Jewish. Not a very strong case.
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I agree, although the Jews who wrote it faced excommunication from Judaism and persecution from Rome. I'd rather say fulfilled prophecy and the great love of Yeshua for people is all we need to make a journey of faith happen, per the Bible.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Left Coast said:
Yes, you made a specific claim about those people.



Formerly, there was no Western science at all. And literate people, let alone "academics," were a tiny minority. And public doctrinal dissent was illegal.

And your claim was present tense anyway.



Intelligence is not education.

So, no actual evidence for your claim here.
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Is it rude for me to suggest you are being a pedant? There are how many born agains in the world, do you think? Are you saying among our ranks are not millions of intelligent and/or educated people currently, as well as going back through history?
 
Left Coast

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
Is it rude for me to suggest you are being a pedant?
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Yes. It's also inaccurate. You made a wildly absurd claim and I called you on it. That isn't pedantic. It's completely reasonable.

There are how many born agains in the world, do you think? Are you saying among our ranks are not millions of intelligent and/or educated people currently, as well as going back through history?
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For the second time, intelligence is not education.

You made the claim that "Countless millions of deep intellectuals--scientists, professors, etc." - ie people with doctorate-level education - currently believe that the Messiah is gong to literally float down from the sky and land in Jerusalem some day.

You have no evidence for that. It's absurd, for the obvious reason that the vast majority of Evangelicals today don't have doctorate-level education - and many of those that do have them in theology and similar subjects from fundamentalist seminaries that prohibit theological heterodoxy.

So please stop making wild claims to legitimize your supernaturalism.
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
I agree, although the Jews who wrote it faced excommunication from Judaism and persecution from Rome. I'd rather say fulfilled prophecy and the great love of Yeshua for people is all we need to make a journey of faith happen, per the Bible.
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You agree with what? With what I thought you seemed to say or that just because a Jew wrote something, that doesn't make it Jewish?
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
That's not a refutation.
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I don't remember seeing anything that was worth refuting or even needed it.

As I menitoned before, if your guy wants to take lead of the Jewish people locally in Israel where I live and internationally have him send a time line by email, SMS, or Zoom for when he plans on showing up to do it. Or we can do the alternative - we can go back and forth with witty remarks on a forum for the next 2,000 years until we forget who we were even talking about.

I have already almost forgot who we were talking about. Wait, don't remind me.....it probably isn't that important. ;)
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
or followed a different school, like the Hillel and Shammai tensions.
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What tension? Read up on chabad.org for 9 Adar
"The schools of Shammai and Hillel for the very first time disagreed regarding a case of Jewish law. This occurred around the turn of the 1st century. In the ensuing generations, the schools argued regarding many different laws, until the law was established according to the teachings of the "House of Hillel" -- with the exception of a few instances. According to tradition, following the arrival of the Moshiach the law will follow the rulings of the House of Shammai.

All throughout, the members of the two schools maintained friendly relations with each other."
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Left Coast said:
Yes. It's also inaccurate. You made a wildly absurd claim and I called you on it. That isn't pedantic. It's completely reasonable.



For the second time, intelligence is not education.

You made the claim that "Countless millions of deep intellectuals--scientists, professors, etc." - ie people with doctorate-level education - currently believe that the Messiah is gong to literally float down from the sky and land in Jerusalem some day.

You have no evidence for that. It's absurd, for the obvious reason that the vast majority of Evangelicals today don't have doctorate-level education - and many of those that do have them in theology and similar subjects from fundamentalist seminaries that prohibit theological heterodoxy.

So please stop making wild claims to legitimize your supernaturalism.
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Here in the USA, half of us have Bachelor's degrees, about 10% have a Masters and quite a few PhDs, so in the USA alone there are more than 3 million doctorates.

Skeptics on RF seem to universally agree that America is a Christian nation. 65% of Americans are thus Christian, giving us over two millions Christian PhD's who sing hymns on Sundays about Jesus's literal return.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
rosends said:
What tension? Read up on chabad.org for 9 Adar
"The schools of Shammai and Hillel for the very first time disagreed regarding a case of Jewish law. This occurred around the turn of the 1st century. In the ensuing generations, the schools argued regarding many different laws, until the law was established according to the teachings of the "House of Hillel" -- with the exception of a few instances. According to tradition, following the arrival of the Moshiach the law will follow the rulings of the House of Shammai.

All throughout, the members of the two schools maintained friendly relations with each other."
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Tension = conflict = eventual resolution. Hillel's school clearly won the doctrinal debate.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
Tension = conflict = eventual resolution. Hillel's school clearly won the doctrinal debate.
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Except that there was no tension (check tractate Yevamot). The conflict was in understanding and applying sources and, if you read the textual exploration, it isn't so clear who "won." You might want to start with tractate Eruvin.
 
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