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Was Yeshua the only resurected?

101G

Well-Known Member
The Lord Jesus is the ONLY one resurrected. no one else has a NEW BODY?

PICJAG
101G
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That's fair enough, I suppose! Seems like a lot of trouble to go through just making something work that seems rather impossible, though.

The stopping of the sun from setting for a day in Joshua has been milling around in my head, as things do, and I realised that slowing the rotation of the earth down over an hour or so from 1000 mph to say 0 mph would mean just slowing it down by 15 mph per minute. I don't think that would make anything fall over or alter things too much, especially if it was sped up again after a short time; less than a day.
So the problem is not what the effects might be on the earth and people etc.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Mat 27:51 Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

What is this describing...?
V 51, at Jesus' death, the curtain between the Holy (picturing the place where and the Most Holy compartments of the temple (picturing heaven and God's presence) was torn in two from top to bottom, symbolically indicating that the way into heaven was now open for Jesus as "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death" to return to his Father as the very first of those who would die the same death and receive the same resurrection as he did (1 Peter 3:18)...others would follow in due time, when Jesus returned to take these ones "home" to be with him.

I believe V52 is describing an earthquake which tossed the "bodies of the holy ones" out of their graves, as this is not uncommon in earthquake prone places.
It is not describing a resurrection because none of the "holy ones" was resurrected before Jesus. These it says were "raised" when Jesus died. He was not resurrected for three days and stayed on earth for 40 days afterwards.

V 53 is describing people coming out of the graveyard, seeing this occur, and reporting it in Jerusalem. It does not mesh with other scripture if it is describing something as monumental as the resurrection of the holy ones. And if it was as some assume...why did Matthew alone mention it as something in passing?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What is this describing...?
V 51, at Jesus' death, the curtain between the Holy (picturing the place where and the Most Holy compartments of the temple (picturing heaven and God's presence) was torn in two from top to bottom, symbolically indicating that the way into heaven was now open for Jesus as "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death" to return to his Father as the very first of those who would die the same death and receive the same resurrection as he did (1 Peter 3:18)...others would follow in due time, when Jesus returned to take these ones "home" to be with him.

I would say that the split veil is symbolic of our access to the Father through Jesus is prayer. There seem to be scriptures that agree with this. I find none that speak only of a certain class of Christians having access at the resurrection, that seems to be reading into it what is not there, and with no evidence in scripture, only in the JW doctrines. Here are a couple of verses.
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Ephes 2:17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household,…


I believe V52 is describing an earthquake which tossed the "bodies of the holy ones" out of their graves, as this is not uncommon in earthquake prone places.
It is not describing a resurrection because none of the "holy ones" was resurrected before Jesus. These it says were "raised" when Jesus died. He was not resurrected for three days and stayed on earth for 40 days afterwards.

V 53 is describing people coming out of the graveyard, seeing this occur, and reporting it in Jerusalem. It does not mesh with other scripture if it is describing something as monumental as the resurrection of the holy ones. And if it was as some assume...why did Matthew alone mention it as something in passing?

As we see below the bodies were raised to life after the resurrection and came out of the tombs after the resurrection. It would not have been a big number and those who said they saw them may not have been believed. And not doubt it would not have been associated with the resurrection of Jesus at that point.
I don't think that they remained in a bodily form however, the real resurrection happens when Jesus returns.
I think that when Jesus rose He did take with Him a crowd of those why had been waiting in Sheol/Hades however and released them from that prison and they would end up maybe in heaven just as the souls under the altar we read about in Revelations.
Matt 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Eph 4:7 Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.” 9 What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I would say that the split veil is symbolic of our access to the Father through Jesus is prayer. There seem to be scriptures that agree with this. I find none that speak only of a certain class of Christians having access at the resurrection, that seems to be reading into it what is not there, and with no evidence in scripture, only in the JW doctrines. Here are a couple of verses.

Are you offering an opinion? What makes your opinion any more valid than ours? You can say anything you like but it wont make it true. Believing doesn't make anything true. Soon we will all know who's beliefs are the truth. (Matthew 7:21-23)

How can you say that it is "symbolic of access to the father in prayer"......God's servants have always had access to him in prayer......? Jesus did not become the "mediator between God and man" after his death....he has always had that role as the Logos....the one who speaks for God to us, and who delivers our prayers to God. Sin is the barrier between God and man.....Jesus has always bridged that gap for God's servants.

There are two groups of Christians who attribute salvation to God....those chosen to be "kings and priests" and those who will be their earthly subjects. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4) Who are these kings going to rule over and for whom do they perform their priestly duties? There are no sinners in heaven.

The resurrection that Jesus performs is to life back here on earth. He calls all the dead from their graves because they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29) The ones with the "heavenly calling" are "raised first" according to both the apostles John and Paul. They are "the firstfruits bought from among mankind".....if there are "firstfruits"...others are to follow, but these will not go to heaven. Others from among mankind will enjoy their rulership in a "new earth".

Revelation 14:1-5 states....
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads . . . .no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

What is hard to understand about that?

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

All of the first Christians had the "heavenly calling"....the Greek scriptures were written for them and about them. They all looked forward to ruling in heaven with Jesus.

Ephes 2:17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household,…

To his anointed ones.....the "one spirit" is the unity they share.

As we see below the bodies were raised to life after the resurrection and came out of the tombs after the resurrection. It would not have been a big number and those who said they saw them may not have been believed. And not doubt it would not have been associated with the resurrection of Jesus at that point.
It doesn't say that the bodies were alive. It says that they were raised, but not raised to life. And no one was resurrected after Jesus to any kind of earthly life.

I don't think that they remained in a bodily form however, the real resurrection happens when Jesus returns.

Since when is "I don't think" a reason to believe anything? Shouldn't it be what scripture says backed up by other scripture, not just by "I think" or "I don't think". Why do you think Christendom is fractured into so many disunited sects? Every one of them started with someone saying...."I think".

I think that when Jesus rose He did take with Him a crowd of those why had been waiting in Sheol/Hades however and released them from that prison and they would end up maybe in heaven just as the souls under the altar we read about in Revelations.

"I think"?...again? Seriously, does it matter what you think.....who are you to tell anyone what to believe? If you want to read scripture and put your own spin on things, that is entirely up to you, but unless you have a brotherhood, you are simply another dissenting voice, going off on your own tangent.

Matt 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
Yes...he breathed his last. He was put to death in the flesh and raised as a spirit....the word "spirit" has more than one meaning.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
You are going to have to explain what it is you are talking about.
a restored life, (naturally), is not the same as a resurrected life. a resurrected life have no NATURAL flesh and bone, nor blood. it is changed, and it "NEVER DIE". and as for those OT accounts, (including the gospel), no one is resurrected before Christ.

PICJAG
101G
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
a restored life, (naturally), is not the same as a resurrected life. a resurrected life have no NATURAL flesh and bone, nor blood. it is changed, and it "NEVER DIE". and as for those OT accounts, (including the gospel), no one is resurrected before Christ.

PICJAG
101G
No idea what you are talking about.
It appears you are using a Humpty Dumpty version of the word "resurrected".
But I am unable to determine what it is you mean.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
My faith is combined with my reasoning and I think I am being intellectually honest to not believe all that
many scholars say when they are writing things against the Bible. They have their own faith and write accordingly, they are not lacking bias.

It's true that everyone has their bias, and ultimately we find things convincing or not according to our epistemological toolset we work with; that relies on bias. That said, no one should believe anything experts (or scholars) say that don't bring good evidence to back their claims. Skepticism is a beautiful thing, and I find it works best when used even against people you like; I've learned a thing or two by doing this. :)

Nevertheless God could make a day longer than normal. Once you start losing your faith in the God who can do that then I guess all these questions about how God could have done it without a disaster tend to make your faith go even further. Then you start believing all the negative press about the truth of the Bible in other areas too. Pretty soon you decide not to go on and that it is easier to not believe.

You aren't wrong. Though I don't buy all anti-biblical propoganda, I have to respect good evidence, even if I learn something I don't necessarily like. I've lost all belief in supernatural things (as far as I'm aware) by pulling at the hems of superstition. I've had supernatural experiences myself, that when I reexamined through the lens of logic, could have happened through very mundane means. It has been an eye opening thing for me, for sure.

I don't know about the Toltec myth but there are others. Even recently it seems that astronomers thought they worked out that we have lost a day somewhere. I wondered how they could possibly work that out and found out in the site I will link. There was a report that the whole thing was a hoax but it seems one of the astronomers say that the hoax report was the hoax. But of course I do not expect a non believer to even consider these things to possibly be true. It seems Christians readily believed that the astronomer's report was a hoax. So much BS going around that we readily dismiss things that may be true, esp if they are a bit far fetched.
The Long Day of Joshua | The Believers Web
https://believersweb.org/the-long-day-of-joshua/

So, I did a little research from the given link, and here is what I found...

Emperor Yao lived in 2233 BC. Joshua lived in 13th century BC. Yao lived almost a thousand years before Joshua. Your link said they lived at the same time.

"Chinese history speaks of Yao, their king, declaring that in his reign the sun stood so long above the horizon that it was feared the world would have been set on fire; and fixes the reign of Yao at a given date, which corresponds with the age of Joshua the son of Nun. . . ."

Emperor Yao - Wikipedia
Joshua - Wikipedia

The person who wrote the article you provided seeks to mislead.

In fact, many of the examples provided come from vastly different times all over, and they just don't add up; it comes across as a dishonest attempt to make things fit into what he's trying to sell.

There are plenty of similar myths world wide from unconnected cultures, like giant beasts that chase the sun and moon, and take a bite out of them (causing eclypses).

Bulgae - Wikipedia
Skoll and Hati - Norse Mythology for Smart People

Similar world myths and "records" don't impress me. They are just a very common, human thing; regardless of where you come from, or what time in history you are at.

Yah, no doubt there are better explanations. It would be no trouble for God however.:)
In the site I posted there is one about an asteroid crashing into the earth and slowing down the mantle etc while the core continued to rotate,,,,,,,,,,sounds like that would cause disasters however. It also says that Newton showed that the rotation could be slowed without much of a problem for earth and it's people.
Interesting stuff, but who is going to believe these things. They are as bad as conspiracy theories. But no I do not discount all conspiracy theories, some of them are probably true. But there are so many around that we just dismiss them all in the interests of Occam's Razor I guess.

I wouldn't say I, personally, dismiss them in the interest of Occam's Razor. I dismiss them because the evidence provided isn't good enough. Occam's Razor is just a quick and sloppy way of getting closer to the truth without digging too deeply, and it definitely isn't perfect... If the evidence doesn't add up, though, then I can't accept the premise as true- with or without Occam's Razor.

The stopping of the sun from setting for a day in Joshua has been milling around in my head, as things do, and I realised that slowing the rotation of the earth down over an hour or so from 1000 mph to say 0 mph would mean just slowing it down by 15 mph per minute. I don't think that would make anything fall over or alter things too much, especially if it was sped up again after a short time; less than a day.
So the problem is not what the effects might be on the earth and people etc.

You know... I'm not sure. To me, it seems like even slowing down to a stop at all would be devastating to the workings of the world. Ocean currents, weather patterns, and even the way that the crust sits on earth's mantle might be disrupted.

Then again, my interest lies more in history and biology, so I really have no idea!
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
why is it so hard to understand that an earthquake can be violent enough to kick dead body's out of the grave's? not likely the first time or the last .
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
why is it so hard to understand that an earthquake can be violent enough to kick dead body's out of the grave's? not likely the first time or the last .

That is not the issue for me, it is that the scripture is translated much differently in most Bibles.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It's true that everyone has their bias, and ultimately we find things convincing or not according to our epistemological toolset we work with; that relies on bias. That said, no one should believe anything experts (or scholars) say that don't bring good evidence to back their claims. Skepticism is a beautiful thing, and I find it works best when used even against people you like; I've learned a thing or two by doing this. :)

It is good not to be too naive. Evidence is good. Sometimes scepticism seems to demand the sort of evidence that cannot be provided and sometimes it seems that it's attacks on the evidence that is provided is it's evidence for non belief


The person who wrote the article you provided seeks to mislead.

In fact, many of the examples provided come from vastly different times all over, and they just don't add up; it comes across as a dishonest attempt to make things fit into what he's trying to sell.

Something like that, even if honestly done by the author, can tend to put us off further belief in evidence like that to prove the validity of scripture.

You know... I'm not sure. To me, it seems like even slowing down to a stop at all would be devastating to the workings of the world. Ocean currents, weather patterns, and even the way that the crust sits on earth's mantle might be disrupted.

Then again, my interest lies more in history and biology, so I really have no idea!

Well certainly slowing the earth down from 1000 mph to 0 mph over a couple of hours would not even be noticed by humans that would not mean that things would be flying off the earth at 1000 mph or something. But I guess all this guessing about how it could have happened is beside the point. It's like decreasing God's power to come down to a level that someone might be able to accept. Sort of disrespectful to God I guess.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
How can you say that it is "symbolic of access to the father in prayer"......God's servants have always had access to him in prayer......? Jesus did not become the "mediator between God and man" after his death....he has always had that role as the Logos....the one who speaks for God to us, and who delivers our prayers to God. Sin is the barrier between God and man.....Jesus has always bridged that gap for God's servants.

I have not thought of Jesus as the mediator between God and man for the OT people also.
Certainly in the New Covenant He is the priest that takes the place of the Levites and all their animal sacrifices and Christians can come to the Father with confidence that we are accepted at any time, as Hebrews 10:19-22 encourages us to do, now while we are still alive. Prayer certainly comes to mind as being what this refers to.

There are two groups of Christians who attribute salvation to God....those chosen to be "kings and priests" and those who will be their earthly subjects. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4) Who are these kings going to rule over and for whom do they perform their priestly duties? There are no sinners in heaven.

The resurrection that Jesus performs is to life back here on earth. He calls all the dead from their graves because they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29) The ones with the "heavenly calling" are "raised first" according to both the apostles John and Paul. They are "the firstfruits bought from among mankind".....if there are "firstfruits"...others are to follow, but these will not go to heaven. Others from among mankind will enjoy their rulership in a "new earth".

Revelation 14:1-5 states....
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads . . . .no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."

What is hard to understand about that?

As a theory it is easy enough to understand. I do however not see the connect between the theory and the actual scriptures. The scriptures actually look to be contradicting the theory in places.

All of the first Christians had the "heavenly calling"....the Greek scriptures were written for them and about them. They all looked forward to ruling in heaven with Jesus.

That seems to be an assumption. The New Testament certainly says nowhere that it is for one sort of Christian only and should not be taken as applying to all Christians.

To his anointed ones.....the "one spirit" is the unity they share.

Why is the one spirit not the unity that all Christians share?
Following the Spirit seems to be the way to please God. I wonder how then someone who is not led by the Spirit can please God.
The scriptures seem to say that all who believe will be born again and receive the Spirit.

Since when is "I don't think" a reason to believe anything? Shouldn't it be what scripture says backed up by other scripture, not just by "I think" or "I don't think". Why do you think Christendom is fractured into so many disunited sects? Every one of them started with someone saying...."I think".

It is the scriptures we should go by and the resurrection did not happen 2000 years ago. So whatever happened with the opening of the graves was not the resurrection.
With the raising of some OT saints from the tombs 2000 years ago it is good to look for other scriptures which may apply to what happened, and the one about Jesus taking captives with Him when He ascended is a good one to explain what happened. Jesus ascended to His Father and received all power and authority rather soon after His resurrection. He had all power and authority already before the ascension we see in Matthews Gospel, so He had already been to heaven to receive this.

"I think"?...again? Seriously, does it matter what you think.....who are you to tell anyone what to believe? If you want to read scripture and put your own spin on things, that is entirely up to you, but unless you have a brotherhood, you are simply another dissenting voice, going off on your own tangent.

Of course I have a brotherhood. But of course a brotherhood does not guarantee that the brotherhood has the truth. What is a brotherhood that it or the leaders of it should say that they are the only ones with the truth and that unless people join their brotherhood they will be listening to lies?
I can certainly see that the brotherhood of the JWs where the leaders claim to be God's sole channel of truth in these days, have taught things that proved to not be true. Believing that they are the sole channel of truth from God for these days seems to be going against the evidence when they have taught false teachings and have altered their interpretations over the years.
New light really is when one piece of truth is expanded and filled out as in the Biblical revelation. New light should not be the teaching the wrong thing initially,,,,,,,,,,,,that just makes the old light actually to have been darkness.

Yes...he breathed his last. He was put to death in the flesh and raised as a spirit....the word "spirit" has more than one meaning.

In the gospels we can see that He was raised up bodily and that His body was a spiritual body, one that is controllable by His spirit in Him.
He still has the same body and the scriptures also say that He fills all things.
Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the very One who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things.
He is everywhere just as God is everywhere through His Spirit with is the one Spirit, the Spirit of God that is given to believers.
He is a man but He also has the nature of God and is not confined to His human body.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
don't ya think that if maybe , several bodies ,had life put back into them that there would be some substantial record of accomplishments by those people ?? in reality you have been duped into believing something that really did not happen in the way it should of been described . its given you a false understanding .
 
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