Father alone is God

moorea944 said:

Just a quick comment here. Jesus did not create anything, GOD did. If.... and if... a certain version of someone's bible says that Jesus created everything... is wrong and it's a bad translation. Well, first of all, how do we know that. We can look at certain programs and certain "better" versions of the bible.

Rotherham bible, is one of, the best translations around. (Not saying it's perfect) Plus, you can download ISA - Interlinear Scripture Analyzer program on your PC. Has all the correct Hebrew and Greek language. IT's really good.

Also, the thing about families is that we are part of that family too. It's a spiritual family, esp when we are baptized. We now have a worldwide family of believers and in heaven.

And as far as the "Word"?... The Word was with God, etc... is that talking about Jesus? We really need to be careful on understanding words. Yes, Jesus IS called the Word and other things too. There are some translations errors in the bible, not by God, but by the translators. The translators put in the cap "W" in Word. So... the Word was with God. What does that mean... Well, when you look up the word "Word", it means LOGOS. And what does Logos mean? It means "someone's plans, reasons or thoughts". So God's plans were with him at the beginning, and then, in verse 14 of John 1, those plans became real. Is Jesus part of the LOGOS, of course. God even knew us before we were born too.

Jesus was not born yet. And there was no reason for him to pre-exist. He was born a man like us. (Heb 2). There is only one GOD. Jesus is not a God, though he is immortal now. There is a reason why the Messiah had to be like us. Do you know why?

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Are you sure that logos could not mean spokesman? The Word is the one who speaks for God. No one has heard God's voice but Moses heard the spokesman speaking from the burning bush. And that spokesman was with the Father in the beginning and that spokesman was the one who actually spoke the words "let there be light" and that spokesman became flesh and dwelt with man and was called Jesus.

lostwanderingsoul said:

Are you sure that logos could not mean spokesman? The Word is the one who speaks for God. No one has heard God's voice but Moses heard the spokesman speaking from the burning bush. And that spokesman was with the Father in the beginning and that spokesman was the one who actually spoke the words "let there be light" and that spokesman became flesh and dwelt with man and was called Jesus.

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[Are you sure that logos could not mean spokesman?]
Yes, it does not mean that...

[ The Word is the one who speaks for God.]
I think your looking at the word "Word" differently from me. Not sure why......

[No one has heard God's voice but Moses heard the spokesman speaking from the burning bush. ]
Yes, there was an angel in the bush. And God was speaking through an angel with Moses elsewhere too. Angels can speak for God. They represent Him. They can speak as if God was speaking too. I'll give verses if you want them.....

[And that spokesman was with the Father in the beginning and that spokesman was the one who actually spoke the words "let there be light" and that spokesman became flesh and dwelt with man and was called Jesus.]
Ok, not sure why your using the word "spokesman", we should change that one, that's throwing you off.. But no worries...... Plus, I"m really not sure where your getting vision from. I wanted to say "info", but I wont. Who was with God in the beginning... The Angels (Elohim) were. They were with God at creation and helped Him with that. Or they were involved with him. "And God said (Elohim said), let us make man in our image and likeness". And who are the Elohim? In most cases, Angels, sometimes man were called Elohim too. Like the judges, priest, because they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. They had the authority to speak for God. Angels can carry or bear the name of God just as Jesus can.

Jesus was made lower than the angels (Elohim) Plural for Eloah.

moorea944 said:

And who is Jesus claiming to be? I hope your not going to say God......
And what chapter again?

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I believe that is exactly what He is saying, that He is God. John 10. Jesus is saying things in answer to the question asked of HIm:
John 10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them ....

lostwanderingsoul said:

John 1:1 indicates that there were TWO "beings" together at the beginnin. One was a "being" called "the Word" and the other was a "being" called God the Father. This being called the Word later entered a human body and was called Jesus. And this same being was the one who made all things. The teo together were God. So there is no on being called God but there are two who together are God.

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I believe that is false. The Word is God and the Father is God and Jesus is God. It is one God.

Muffled said:

I believe that is false. The Word is God and the Father is God and Jesus is God. It is one God.

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Take away the flesh and the picture is more clear.

We could then say;

The Word is God and the Father is God and Christ is God. It is one God.

We can recall that when asked Peter conformed Jesus was Christ, it was this that the Church was to be built upon, as the flesh amounts to nothing, this is the name by which we are all saved.

We can then understand that Christ is brought forth, not born of flesh, in every age.

Regards Tony

Muffled said:

I believe that is exactly what He is saying, that He is God. John 10. Jesus is saying things in answer to the question asked of HIm:
John 10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them ....

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As usual, Trinitarian Christians can only back up their belief that Jesus is God through assumptions of what other people said rather than what Jesus himself said of who he is in their own Bible. In John 10:24, the Jews are asking Jesus “If you are the Christ, tell us plainly”, they ARE NOT asking him “If you are God, tell us plainly”.. and in response, Jesus answered, “I did tell you but you did not believe”. So, what was Jesus telling the Jews here?? He was CLEARLY telling them that he IS the Christ… so, where did you see Jesus was saying he is God ??? Talking about blind faith and muddled up minds !!

lostwanderingsoul said:

Both can be refered to as God

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“Both.” You said it, no one made you say it.
“Both” means “two.”
No matter how you slice it, that’s polytheism.
The trinity / binity / duinity is a corrupt doctrine, designed to alienate people from Yahweh, the Father.
Or, at the very least, lessen His importance.

That’s a dangerous position to take, to relegate the One whom Jesus called, “the Only True God,” as being not the Only. In direct violation of the very First of the Ten Commandments.

Hockeycowboy said:

“Both.” You said it, no one made you say it.
“Both” means “two.”
No matter how you slice it, that’s polytheism.
The trinity / binity / duinity is a corrupt doctrine, designed to alienate people from Yahweh, the Father.
Or, at the very least, lessen His importance.

That’s a dangerous position to take, to relegate the One whom Jesus called, “the Only True God,” as being not the Only. In direct violation of the very First of the Ten Commandments.

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I am afraid it DOES matter how you slice it. A husband and wife are two people. But they are one FAMILY. There is no person named God. God is the FAMILY. One God (family) but two "people" in that family. Only one father and only one son, and only one family called God. I absolutely believe in one God. And the father and son are both in it.

lostwanderingsoul said:

I am afraid it DOES matter how you slice it.

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Yes, it does, don’t it?
They are two different persons.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6

Even if one reads those two popular Scriptures — John 3:16 & John 17:3 — only, it’s easy to see, from Jesus’ own mouth, that his Father is God, & Jesus isn’t.

And after his resurrection, in the prayer his followers gave to God @ Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30, they call Jesus “Holy Servant.” The Only True God has never been a servant!

lostwanderingsoul said:

I am afraid it DOES matter how you slice it. A husband and wife are two people. But they are one FAMILY. There is no person named God. God is the FAMILY. One God (family) but two "people" in that family. Only one father and only one son, and only one family called God. I absolutely believe in one God. And the father and son are both in it.

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Your choice of words are different. It's like your trying to make something else of something. Not really sure where your heading.
A husband and wife are two people, correct, but they are also one flesh in marriage Godly principles. And our heavenly father doesnt want that separated.

I'm also not sure if your understanding what "God" really means. It can mean either, EL, Eloah, or Elohim, each have a different meanings. But to say God IS the family, the family of what? Believers? Or just our heavenly Father and Jesus. I just never heard of the family called God before. Dont forget that we are in that family too. But that's more spiritual.

You mentioned that the father and son are in "that family". Are you saying that they are boths Gods or co-equal? Just curious.........

Hockeycowboy said:

Yes, it does, don’t it?
They are two different persons.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6

Even if one reads those two popular Scriptures — John 3:16 & John 17:3 — only, it’s easy to see, from Jesus’ own mouth, that his Father is God, & Jesus isn’t.

And after his resurrection, in the prayer his followers gave to God @ Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30, they call Jesus “Holy Servant.” The Only True God has never been a servant!

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The problem is that you think there is a "person" named God. This is not true. There is a family or group named God. In that family or team there are two persons. They are both separate persons but they are both in the family or group or team called God. ONE God One famiy. One team. Don't you see that a sports team is ONE team but many players. So why can't God be a team made up of several members.

moorea944 said:

Your choice of words are different. It's like your trying to make something else of something. Not really sure where your heading.
A husband and wife are two people, correct, but they are also one flesh in marriage Godly principles. And our heavenly father doesnt want that separated.

I'm also not sure if your understanding what "God" really means. It can mean either, EL, Eloah, or Elohim, each have a different meanings. But to say God IS the family, the family of what? Believers? Or just our heavenly Father and Jesus. I just never heard of the family called God before. Dont forget that we are in that family too. But that's more spiritual.

You mentioned that the father and son are in "that family". Are you saying that they are boths Gods or co-equal? Just curious.........

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Are a husband and wife equal? Are a father and son equal? Jesus said the Father is greater than himself. So Jesus and the Father are not equal. Humans have the opportunity to BECOME part of God's family. And they will inherit the same things Jesus does. Someday. Would you say that all members of a human family are human? All members of a dog family are dogs? All members of a cat family are cats? Why not all members of a god fammily all gods? And yet since there is only one God family it is correct to say there is only one God.

lostwanderingsoul said:

The problem is that you think there is a "person" named God. This is not true. There is a family or group named God. In that family or team there are two persons. They are both separate persons but they are both in the family or group or team called God. ONE God One famiy. One team. Don't you see that a sports team is ONE team but many players. So why can't God be a team made up of several members.

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[There is a family or group named God.]
I disagree. I not seeing that wording in scripture.

[In that family or team there are two persons. They are both separate persons but they are both in the family or group or team called God. ONE God One family. One team.]
One God is correct. But no such thing as "team God".

[ Don't you see that a sports team is ONE team but many players.]
That's something completely different.

[So why can't God be a team made up of several members.]
I dont know if I would use that wording such as "team". But I would use something like "God manifestation". God manifesting Himself in people or angels. Example... God uses angels and manifests his power and authority in them. Just like He did with Jesus and us. He used Jesus for his plan and purpose and he used other people too. Like, Moses, apostles, Abraham, Pharaoh, etc. He used angels to work with the nations too.

Angels can also talk as if God is talking. They come in the power and authority of God. They can talk as if God was talking to someone himself. (I can give verses on that one to is you need them)

We also try to manifest God's charactor is us too, though we fail. God has given us a mind to understand spiriual things concerning our Heavenly Father. Animals cant do that. But we can. So we want to be like christ and God in a way that gives Glory to our Heavenly Father. Everything that we do should show forth the righteousness of our Creator. We want to have God work in our lives too. God's spirit is in us. Jesus is in us and we in him, not literally, but spiritually. Though God has to be in us in a way that keeps us alive. If the trinity is true, which it is not, then we are part of that trinity. God in us, Jesus in us and we in him. John 17.... No trinity there....

lostwanderingsoul said:

Are a husband and wife equal? Are a father and son equal? Jesus said the Father is greater than himself. So Jesus and the Father are not equal. Humans have the opportunity to BECOME part of God's family. And they will inherit the same things Jesus does. Someday. Would you say that all members of a human family are human? All members of a dog family are dogs? All members of a cat family are cats? Why not all members of a god fammily all gods? And yet since there is only one God family it is correct to say there is only one God.

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Ok, I agree with you in most of this post except on "Why not all members of a god family are all gods."

First of all, scripture tells us that Jesus is not a god or God. God's Spirit caused Mary to become pregnant with child. It does say that he was born a god because his father was God, it says that he was born a man like us. And why was that? The messiah had to be... born like us, same nature (Heb 2). He had to overcome sin for a reason. That our sin nature, that is prone to sin, had to be put to death. Scripture also tells us that if you sin, you die. Jesus didnt sin and for that , his Father raised him from the dead and "gave him" immortality. And someday we will be the first fruits of this too.

We have to put our sin nature to death and we do that through baptism (Romans 6). We symbollicaly die with Christ and we are raised with him. Also 1 Corin 15. Jesus was not created a god, he was created and born a man like us. There is absolutely no reason for Jesus to be born a god. None.

moorea944 said:

Ok, I agree with you in most of this post except on "Why not all members of a god family are all gods."

First of all, scripture tells us that Jesus is not a god or God. God's Spirit caused Mary to become pregnant with child. It does say that he was born a god because his father was God, it says that he was born a man like us. And why was that? The messiah had to be... born like us, same nature (Heb 2). He had to overcome sin for a reason. That our sin nature, that is prone to sin, had to be put to death. Scripture also tells us that if you sin, you die. Jesus didnt sin and for that , his Father raised him from the dead and "gave him" immortality. And someday we will be the first fruits of this too.

We have to put our sin nature to death and we do that through baptism (Romans 6). We symbollicaly die with Christ and we are raised with him. Also 1 Corin 15. Jesus was not created a god, he was created and born a man like us. There is absolutely no reason for Jesus to be born a god. None.

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All I can do is repeat. A man's son is a man. A dog's son is a dog A god's son is a god. Perfect logic, perfect science, perfect sense. One may not agree but that does not make it false.So the is a perfect reason for Jesus to be God. Some just don't believe it.

lostwanderingsoul said:

All I can do is repeat. A man's son is a man. A dog's son is a dog A god's son is a god. Perfect logic, perfect science, perfect sense. One may not agree but that does not make it false.So the is a perfect reason for Jesus to be God. Some just don't believe it.

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Your missing the whole point. Your talking about two different scenarios. Yes, a dog will give birth to a dog. A human will give birth to a human, etc, etc. But that's not the case here with Jesus. God created a man to be born of a woman. He had to be born of a woman to inherit Adam's nature. Jesus had to "overcome" or to conquer sin. Or his sin nature, whatever way you want to word it. Jesus was not born perfect. Scripture tells us that. He suffered, he learned spiritual things about his father. He battled sin! And he conquered sin too! If Jesus was God or a god, his life would then mean nothing if he had to do certain things. A god cannot sin or be tempted like Jesus was.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus is the mediator for us. Hebrews tells us that who better to do that than Jesus himself, since he suffered and was tried like us. Think about it. Jesus being a god or God, does that really make sense to you?

moorea944 said:

Your missing the whole point. Your talking about two different scenarios. Yes, a dog will give birth to a dog. A human will give birth to a human, etc, etc. But that's not the case here with Jesus. God created a man to be born of a woman. He had to be born of a woman to inherit Adam's nature. Jesus had to "overcome" or to conquer sin. Or his sin nature, whatever way you want to word it. Jesus was not born perfect. Scripture tells us that. He suffered, he learned spiritual things about his father. He battled sin! And he conquered sin too! If Jesus was God or a god, his life would then mean nothing if he had to do certain things. A god cannot sin or be tempted like Jesus was.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus is the mediator for us. Hebrews tells us that who better to do that than Jesus himself, since he suffered and was tried like us. Think about it. Jesus being a god or God, does that really make sense to you?

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And scripture also tells us that WE can become God's children. Won't that makes us gods? That is exactly the point that SATAN does not want people to know. And Satan has done a great job because very few people see this simple truth.

lostwanderingsoul said:

And scripture also tells us th Vat WE can become God's children. Won't that makes us gods? That is exactly the point that SATAN does not want people to know. And Satan has done a great job because very few people see this simple truth.

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Remember what Moses wrote about banning Adam and Eve from the tree of life in the garden of Eden. (Genesis 3:22) "And God Jehovah said “Here the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, and now he may put out his hand and take something from the tree of life too, and eat it and live forever” Verse 24, "So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."

lostwanderingsoul said:

And scripture also tells us that WE can become God's children. Won't that makes us gods? That is exactly the point that SATAN does not want people to know. And Satan has done a great job because very few people see this simple truth.

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[And scripture also tells us that WE can become God's children.]
Are you referring to something in the future for us? We are children of God now too.

Gal 3v26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"

1 John 3 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God"

Romans 8v16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
So many other verses too. But someday at judgement we can be made immortal like that angels. Was that what you were thinking about too?

[Won't that makes us gods?]
I would have to say no because that term is not in scripture. Scripture tells us that we will be made "like the angels'. It doesnt say that we will be angels or gods or a god, it says that we will be like them (angels).

[That is exactly the point that SATAN does not want people to know. And Satan has done a great job because very few people see this simple truth.]
Not going to talk about satan at this time. My satan and your satan is probably two different things. My satan is just an untranslated Hebrew word, SATAN "SAHTAN", pronounced "saw-tawn", meaning adversary or someone who is opposed to God's ways. It is not a fallen angel of some sort. Jesus knew how to use that word too, he called Peter satan. So is Peter actually satan? No, of course not. Peter was thinking of himself instead of what God wanted Jesus to do.

Same with devil. No devil in the OT but now with the NT, the Jews are calling everyone devils. Pagan ideas and religion have now crept into religion. Again, it is an untranslated Greek word, DIABOLOS Translated to devil. It's just someone to is a bad person in a way that, again, going away from God's ways, a liar, etc, etc... Paul wrote to Timothy and said dont have your wives liars and false accusors. Org txt is devils. So Paul is saying, dont have your wives to be devils.

Look at Jude v9. "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

When you read the whole chapter you find this out. Here is Michael having a problem with the children of Israel. They were going down a bad path just like Cain, Balaam and Korah. So Michael is telling them that God rebukes your ways!! And who or what is the devil in that verse? 1 John 3 explains it very well.
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." So we have people who love God and people who oppose God's ways. Devil, children of an adversary, people who love unrighteousness.

So Michael is contending with people who are going away from God's ways. And who are they? The children of Israel. They are the "body of Moses", just like we are the "body of Christ". And Michael is like saying... Stop your ways because God rebukes you!!!

But anyhow...
But we can talk about that topic another time.

John 1:12 To those who believed he gave power to BECOME the sons of God. Whena human sperm and egg join, a new human is begun. But that new life is not born until it has time to grow and develop. When a person is baptized, God's spirit joins with thier human spirit. A new spirit life is begun. But that new spirit being is not born until it has time to grow and develop. We may have God's spirit growing in us but we are not fully born as God's children until we grow and develop and are raised from the dead to new spirit life. Jesus set the example by dying as a human abd being raised immortal. The same can happen to us.