• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Moses and samuel

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
In the story of the witch of endor 1 samuel 28 it looks like samuel is talking.And in the story of moses.On the mountain of transfiguration.It looks like moses is talking in Luke 9:30 and matthew 17:9.Is it really them?If moses and samuel can come back to earth through god jeremiah 15:1 makes sense.:)
 
Last edited:

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Psalms 115:17

The incident with king Saul and the witch of Endor, Jehovah God had recorded to inform us that the demons have the ability to imposter the dead, try to fool us.

Ask yourself, “why did Saul need a witch?”
According to the Scriptures, where do genuine witches get their power? Not God.
Hint: Deuteronomy 18:10-12
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In the story of the witch of endor 1 samuel 28 it looks like samuel is talking.And in the story of moses.On the mountain of transfiguration.It looks like moses is talking in Luke 9:30 and matthew 17:9.Is it really them?If moses and samuel can come back to earth through god jeremiah 15:1 makes sense.:)

Yes the story of Samuel coming up from the dead as a spirit and the transfiguration stories show that the dead still exist and can come back to earth if God so desires that to happen.
I don't know what the passage below has to do with the witch of Endor and the Transfiguration however.
Jeremiah15:1 Then the Lord said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Psalms 115:17

The incident with king Saul and the witch of Endor, Jehovah God had recorded to inform us that the demons have the ability to imposter the dead, try to fool us.

Ask yourself, “why did Saul need a witch?”
According to the Scriptures, where do genuine witches get their power? Not God.
Hint: Deuteronomy 18:10-12

I'm pretty sure the word "praise" in Psalm 115:17 is a word that has to do with the praise offered in Temple worship.
As Frank Goad says, it does look like Samuel is talking all the way through the Witch of Endor story.
Are you saying that the Bible is deceiving us when it makes it look as if Samuel was there and spoke?
To me that is the same as the Bible deceiving us when it tells us that Jesus rose bodily.
Why do you alter the meaning of the scriptures to fit your doctrines?
I know why, it is because you trust the Watchtower and not what the Bible says.
Do you think God can use Satan to achieve His purposes?
God did so in Job.
The Bible does tell us that one reason God was displeased with Saul is because he consulted with the witch however, but as I said, God used that situation. The witch was shocked and scared when she saw Samuel come up, it was not what usually happened in her business. She was scared because she realised that she was actually speaking with Saul the King and could have lost her life over it.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Psalms 115:17

The incident with king Saul and the witch of Endor, Jehovah God had recorded to inform us that the demons have the ability to imposter the dead, try to fool us.

Ask yourself, “why did Saul need a witch?”
According to the Scriptures, where do genuine witches get their power? Not God.
Hint: Deuteronomy 18:10-12
Now there's an artfully crafted fable.

God was telling you that demons have the ability to imposter the dead?

Are there any other Scriptures that teach us that same thing you claim this one to teach? Just curious.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
‘Praise in the Temple’? Only there, huh?
Prove it. Sounds like your twisting, to me.
Daniel was not at the Temple, yet he gave “praise” — in Babylon. Daniel 2:23.

Psalms 6:5

To me that is the same as the Bible deceiving us when it tells us that Jesus rose bodily.

Where does it say “Jesus rose bodily”? I know it says, he was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”

Why do you alter the meaning of the scriptures to fit your doctrines?
I know why, it is because you trust the Watchtower and not what the Bible says.
Do you think God can use Satan to achieve His purposes?
God did so in Job.
The Bible does tell us that one reason God was displeased with Saul is because he consulted with the witch however, but as I said, God used that situation. The witch was shocked and scared when she saw Samuel come up, it was not what usually happened in her business. She was scared because she realised that she was actually speaking with Saul the King and could have lost her life over it.
(Yes, why did God kill those who pursued talking with the dead? * Deuteronomy 18:10-12 * I’d love to talk again w/ my grandmother. As would most everyone with theirs. So I guess the question is, Is God being cruel, or protective?)

The Bible says that Jehovah God said to Adam, “You will return to the ground....to dust you will return.” Genesis 3:19

The Bible says, “The living know (who knows? The people, or their bodies?) that they will die; but the dead know nothing.” Ecclesiastes 9:5.

The Bible says when a person dies, “his thoughts perish.” Psalms 146:3-4

When Jesus resurrected Lazarus (John 11), did Lazarus say he had been ‘in another realm’?
In fact, In that account Jesus likened the condition of death, to sleep, a state of unconsciousness & unawareness.

Since you don’t accept the first part of Psalms 115:17, what does “going down into silence ” mean? Silence ‘at the Temple’?

What does Resurrection mean? Your view that ‘the dead are still alive after death,’ negates any need for the Resurrection.

Since you accuse me of ‘toeing the WT line,’
here’s an article with no ties to JW’s....

The Resurrection

Don’t be antagonistic, ok?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Now there's an artfully crafted fable.

God was telling you that demons have the ability to imposter the dead?

Are there any other Scriptures that teach us that same thing you claim this one to teach? Just curious.
Well, since the dead “know nothing”, and “their thoughts perish”, it would have to be an imposter.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Well, since the dead “know nothing”, and “their thoughts perish”, it would have to be an imposter.
Did God tell you directly that demons impersonate dead people?

The reason I ask is because the text says nothing like that, but yet you claim it is God informing us that it was a demon.

Here's a quote from the Cambridge Bible for Students.

"and to morrow: There is considerable diversity of opinion, both among learned and pious men, relative to this appearance to Saul. But the most probable opinion seems to be, that Samuel himself did actually appear to Saul, not by the power of enchantment, but by the appointment and especial mercy of God, to warn this infatuated monarch of his approaching end, that he might be reconciled with his Maker. There is not the smallest intimation of chicanery or Satanic influence given in the text; but on the contrary, from the plain and obvious meaning of the language employed, it is perfectly evident that it was Samuel himself, Shemooel hoo, as it is expressed in 1Sa_28:14. Indeed the very soul of Samuel seems to breathe in his expressions of displeasure against the disobedience and wickedness of Saul; while the awful prophetic denunciations which accordingly came to pass, were such as neither human nor diabolical wisdom could foresee, and which could only be known to God himself, and to those to whom he chose to reveal them. Exo_9:18; Jer_28:16-17; Dan_5:25-28; Mat_26:24; Act_5:5, Act_5:9-10"

Is it possible that God raised Samuel? Certainly it's possible. Who else could raise the dead?

Is it possible that it was an angel of God thought to be Samuel? That's a possibility too.

What I would like to know is why is that the JW's don't think they could possibly wrong about anything?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
‘Praise in the Temple’? Only there, huh?
Prove it. Sounds like your twisting, to me.
Daniel was not at the Temple, yet he gave “praise” — in Babylon. Daniel 2:23.

Psalms 6:5

I looked in my Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament and for the word used in Ps 6:5 it says that it was predominantly employed to express one's public proclamation of declaration of God's attributes and his works.
I looked up the word used in Ps 115:17 and it said it was a synonym of yada, the word used in Ps 6:5. It is more of a joyous praise and it says that this sort of praise is especially but not uniquely congregational.
I looked up the work in Daniel and it is a completely different word and is Aramaic.

Where does it say “Jesus rose bodily”? I know it says, he was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Matt 28:6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.

(Yes, why did God kill those who pursued talking with the dead? * Deuteronomy 18:10-12 * I’d love to talk again w/ my grandmother. As would most everyone with theirs. So I guess the question is, Is God being cruel, or protective?)

Death is death and it is only rarely that God would bring the soul of a dead person back to rejoin their body (1Kings 17:21) or bring someone up from the dead as a spirit to give a message from Him.
It is certainly not something that someone can do without going through Yahweh. Satan can and has deceived people about these things for years. I guess it showed a complete turning away from Yahweh by a Jew. Nevertheless God used the occasion to tell Saul the truth of what would happen to him and his sons. And yes it was Saul because the Bible tells us it was.

The Bible says that Jehovah God said to Adam, “You will return to the ground....to dust you will return.” Genesis 3:19

And so we do because we are made from dust, but we are not just dust and the spirit part, the part that was not made, goes back to God who gave it. God is looking after the spirits of billions of dead people. When the body dies the spirit part becomes the only living part of the person, it is then termed the soul of the person, the totality of that person. (Matt 10:28) When Jesus gave up His spirit to God when He died, it was His spirit and not just a generic life force from God.
There are many places in the New Testament that show that we have a spirit and that the body is a tent for us etc.

The Bible says, “The living know (who knows? The people, or their bodies?) that they will die; but the dead know nothing.” Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Does that mean that they do not exist? No. It means they have no idea what is going on. In context I would say it means they don't know what is happening in the land of the living. They may even be in a state of sleep or semi slumber. Samuel seemed annoyed that Saul had disturbed him from his rest.
1Sam 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me
Samuel even said that Saul would be with him, not that they would be out of existence. These things are why the WT and you have to say that it was not really Samuel, it was a demon. It is similar with the thief on the cross. Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.
The Watchtower has to change the meaning because it disagrees with their doctrine. Simple put the comma in a place so that Jesus uses a phrase that he has never used before instead of one that he used every second day.

The Bible says when a person dies, “his thoughts perish.” Psalms 146:3-4

That does not mean that the person goes out of existence. Maybe they are just sleeping.
But no, in contest that means what it says in many translations. "his plans perish". Don't put your trust in humans because they die and their plans perish with them.

When Jesus resurrected Lazarus (John 11), did Lazarus say he had been ‘in another realm’?
In fact, In that account Jesus likened the condition of death, to sleep, a state of unconsciousness & unawareness.

I don't know what Lazarus said or remembered? Do you? He probably remembered nothing I suppose.
Is he meant to remember something?
Jesus may be right about death being sleep. But that is not going into non existence. I sleep and sort of wake up during the night and I know I have not gone into non existence.

Since you don’t accept the first part of Psalms 115:17, what does “going down into silence ” mean? Silence ‘at the Temple’?

It probably means that they have not got ears or voices to sing God's praise.

What does Resurrection mean? Your view that ‘the dead are still alive after death,’ negates any need for the Resurrection.

Resurrection means to come back to life, in this case the human being comes back to life. This is why a resurrection is needed, because as spirits we are not human.
Even the souls of the anointed are brought back with Jesus to be resurrected (1Thess 4:13-18) And the bodies of the anointed are redeemed from death and corruption. (Romans 8:23----which the Watchtower seems to have altered as they do other verses in the Bible to suite their doctrines)
As I have no doubt said to you before, if God copied me now it would plainly be a copy, a duplicate, not me.
What would change if God copied me after I died? That would be a duplicate also.
The Watchtower takes away the possibility of a resurrection as well as changing the meaning of what resurrection means.

Don’t be antagonistic, ok?

Sorry, I am not against you. It is just that I am antagonistic to the Watchtower. I also get frustrated with JWs for rejecting the clear meaning of scripture and clear reasoning and not giving answers address my concerns but then shutting down the discussion.
I get this way with Baha'is also at times.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Brian2, I don’t have the time right now, to respond in depth. But I thought your reply here reveals a slight lack of reasoning:


Does that mean that they do not exist? No. It means they have no idea what is going on.

Now just think...in your POV, Samuel has “no idea what’s going on”, but then know he’s speaking w/ Saul, and can tell Saul he’s going to die?

That doesn’t make sense.

A demon could do those things! And if you still think it was Samuel, why would Samuel, who died faithful, tell disobedient Saul that he’d ‘be with him soon’? According to your theology, they wouldn’t be in the same place!

I can see that you’re not attacking me, but...
I’m sorry, but it’s your religious indoctrination that has failed you.

You’ve gotten your instruction from institutions that say in times of war, love for your foreign brother can be forgotten.

I won’t believe any spiritual teachings from such worldly institutions any more! Titus 1:16
 
Last edited:

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In the story of the witch of endor 1 samuel 28 it looks like samuel is talking.And in the story of moses.On the mountain of transfiguration.It looks like moses is talking in Luke 9:30 and matthew 17:9.Is it really them?If moses and samuel can come back to earth through god jeremiah 15:1 makes sense.:)
Since these are two completely different circumstances, from two completely different sources (the Synoptic sources would constitute a “single source” for our purposes), they have nothing to do with each other where the dead are concerned. 1 Sam. Is firmly in the camp of no beatific life after death. The Synoptics take a much different view. The theological implications of Samuel’s appearance are much different from those of Moses’ appearance at the Transfiguration. Additionally, they each present a completely different literary device, because of those theological differences. The NT authors were much more accustomed to the concept of an afterlife than the author of Samuel.

To answer your question, yes, the author intends Samuel to appear as a “shade.” Yes, the authors of the Synoptics also intend Moses (and Elijah, BTW) to appear as “shades” — not resurrected people, but as shades of those who were dead.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Psalms 115:17

The incident with king Saul and the witch of Endor, Jehovah God had recorded to inform us that the demons have the ability to imposter the dead, try to fool us.

Ask yourself, “why did Saul need a witch?”
According to the Scriptures, where do genuine witches get their power? Not God.
Hint: Deuteronomy 18:10-12
But it doesn't say it is a demon. It says it is Samuel. 'Nuff said.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
But it doesn't say it is a demon. It says it is Samuel. 'Nuff said.
In Exodus 7, where Pharoah’s magic-practicing priests threw down their staffs and they became snakes, in opposition to God’s power: the account is silent about who was the source behind their power.
Why?

Because we’re informed about His archenemy, in Job 1 & Job 2. Yahweh gives His enemies as little recognition as possible, just enough to enlighten us! The Bible is His Book, about His activities, not His enemies’.
But you know that.

Take care, my cousin.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In Exodus 7, where Pharoah’s magic-practicing priests threw down their staffs and they became snakes, in opposition to God’s power: the account is silent about who was the source behind their power.
Why?

Because we’re informed about His archenemy, in Job 1 & Job 2. Yahweh gives His enemies as little recognition as possible, just enough to enlighten us! The Bible is His Book, about His activities, not His enemies’.
But you know that.

Take care, my cousin.
The priests in Pharaoh's court were tricksters who used slight of hand. They didn't have any supernatural power.

HaSatan in the book of Job is God's employee. It is his job to accuse us and test us. He is like God's appointed prosecutor of us. Hey, someone has to do the job!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Can I reason with you on this?....
The priests in Pharaoh's court were tricksters who used slight of hand. They didn't have any supernatural power.

The account of Saul speaking with Samuel...it doesn’t say a demon was impersonating Samuel, so fine.
But in Exodus 7, where the magic-practicing priests’ staffs became snakes....the account doesn’t call them tricksters, but you say they were? Isn’t that a little biased, maybe?

EDIT: Who was behind the Serpent, in Eden?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Can I reason with you on this?....


The account of Saul speaking with Samuel...it doesn’t say a demon was impersonating Samuel, so fine.
But in Exodus 7, where the magic-practicing priests’ staffs became snakes....the account doesn’t call them tricksters, but you say they were? Isn’t that a little biased, maybe?

EDIT: Who was behind the Serpent, in Eden?
Well it doesn't say that God was behind them, so the alternative was that they were using slight of hand, since that is by far the easiest explanation.

The serpent was a serpent. I know that Christians turn the serpent into Satan, but that is not what Genesis says, and therefore not what Judaism teaches.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@IndigoChild5559 ,
Another question, please...
Who were the Prince(s) of Persia & Greece, whom the angel in Daniel 10 had to fight for 21 days?
Humans?
If one angel could destroy 185,000 soldiers in one night, how come it took 21 days in this instance?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@IndigoChild5559 ,
Another question, please...
Who were the Prince(s) of Persia & Greece, whom the angel in Daniel 10 had to fight for 21 days?
Humans?
If one angel could destroy 185,000 soldiers in one night, how come it took 21 days in this instance?
I'm not going to discuss Daniel with you. Prophets see in visions and dreams, which mean they see figurative symbols. Understanding these symbols is open to incredible interpretation.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian2, I don’t have the time right now, to respond in depth. But I thought your reply here reveals a slight lack of reasoning:

Now just think...in your POV, Samuel has “no idea what’s going on”, but then know he’s speaking w/ Saul, and can tell Saul he’s going to die?

That doesn’t make sense.

God spoke to Samuel when he was alive and also spoke to him in this instance and gave an accurate prophecy. A demon could guess that Saul would ride all night to the war and that he and his sons would die in battle, but it must have been a good guess.
It is not as if God just did not mention that Satan was behind the whole thing, God actually tells us that it was Samuel. The Watchtower here is calling God a liar it seems and saying that God is a God of confusion.

A demon could do those things! And if you still think it was Samuel, why would Samuel, who died faithful, tell disobedient Saul that he’d ‘be with him soon’? According to your theology, they wouldn’t be in the same place!

They would be in the same place, Sheol.

I can see that you’re not attacking me, but...
I’m sorry, but it’s your religious indoctrination that has failed you.

You’ve gotten your instruction from institutions that say in times of war, love for your foreign brother can be forgotten.

I won’t believe any spiritual teachings from such worldly institutions any more! Titus 1:16

That sounds like an ad hominem attack on the doctrines of the Church because of some weeds in the church. And the weeds were to remain in the Church till the end when the angels would separate them out, remember that.
The Watchtower poisons it's members against Christendom and then when they find out the Watchtower is in error and is as corrupt as Christendom the members have nowhere to go except to give up on God.
But I would not want anyone to come from the Watchtower and go straight into anywhere else. It would just be a good start if JWs started believing the Bible and what it says. But of course the vision of what the Bible actually says has been clouded by the teachings of the Watchtower about the meaning of the Bible. When you read that Samuel spoke to Saul, you think, God would not allow that or be involved in it, so that is not true. It is all a twisting of the scriptures so that the Watchtower doctrines can be preserved.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Watchtower poisons it's members against Christendom.....

No, Christendom has done that, all by themselves! Christendom is poison. They’ve even got you thinking that killing their brothers is just done by “some weeds”. Please! They’ve been part “of” the world (John 17:16) since it’s inception, about 1700 years ago, joining the world in its conflicts, beginning with Constantine. When the Protestant offshoot arose, nothing changed in that regard. With very few exceptions, Christendom’s members have developed a reputation of hypocrisy, only ‘loving their brothers’ when convenient, i.e., during peacetime.


...and then when they find out the Watchtower is in error and is as corrupt as Christendom...
Wait, I just now read this whole sentence....“As corrupt as”, eh?
Now you are agreeing that Christendom is corrupt? Why are you, for the most part, following their dogma? They (you?) worship Jesus, yet he said it’s his Father that provides enlightenment at Luke 10:21. And Yahweh requires sole worship, according to Exodus 20:1-4. You know, we follow Jesus’ example in that regard, too.
But I would not want anyone to come from the Watchtower and go straight into anywhere else. It would just be a good start if JWs started believing the Bible and what it says. But of course the vision of what the Bible actually says has been clouded by the teachings of the Watchtower about the meaning of the Bible. When you read that Samuel spoke to Saul, you think, God would not allow that or be involved in it, so that is not true. It is all a twisting of the scriptures so that the Watchtower doctrines can be preserved.
Christendom has had 1700 years to twist Scriptures. Isaac Newton even discovered their deceit, with the Comma Johannum . They’ve even changed the Bible’s words...removing God’s Own Name from their versions, following a Jewish superstition. (I didn’t think Christians felt it necessary to follow Jewish tradition.) Thankfully, Jehovah made sure the KJV (which became very popular) kept it in at least 4 times.
You know, valuing God’s Name is important. Malachi 3:16
You mentioned that the account w/ Saul talking to Samuel doesn’t say it was a demon.
Well, neither does Exodus 7 mention whose power was behind Pharaoh’s magic priests. But we know, from Biblical context.
Same with Saul & “Samuel.” If the dead “return to the ground”, “know nothing”, “do not praise Jehovah”, and “their thoughts perish”, there’s no other valid explanation.

Take care, my cousin.​
 
Top