When "Inerrant" Really Means "Full Of Errors"

SeekingAllTruth said:

We have to remember that Paul didn't believe Jesus raised bodily. Paul believed and taught that Jesus was raised in a spiritual body and it was this spiritual body he believes he encountered on the road to Damascus.

The Raising of a Spiritual Body

Both terms are important for understanding Paul’s view of the resurrection of Jesus: Jesus was raised in the body; but it was a body that was spiritual.

https://ehrmanblog.org/paul-resurrection-spiritual-body/

Click to expand...

Paul's experience with the spirit of Christ was after Christ had returned to heaven (not as the celestial being in bodily form that appeared to the apostles and others before ascending into heaven.)

The corporeal form of Christ has not yet returned to earth since the day of the ascension.

* Lazarus returned from death in his real, original body with the grave cloths in tact. He would eventually die again.

* Jesus retuned in the new form that man will take on leaving the burial cloths on the table because the material body of Jesus was gone.

Its not accurate to say that Paul believed Jesus simply resurrected in a purely spiritual form nor would Paul's personal opinions matter to me.

cOLTER said:

Paul's experience with the spirit of Christ was after Christ had returned to heaven (not as the celestial being in bodily form that appeared to the apostles and others before ascending into heaven.)

The corporeal form of Christ has not yet returned to earth since the day of the ascension.

* Lazarus returned from death in his real, original body with the grave cloths in tact. He would eventually die again.

* Jesus retuned in the new form that man will take on leaving the burial cloths on the table because the material body of Jesus was gone.

Its not accurate to say that Paul believed Jesus simply resurrected in a purely spiritual form nor would Paul's personal opinions matter to me.

Click to expand...

The bold in your statement shocks me. Paul claimed to have a direct link to God just like Jesus. That would mean God had given Paul tremendous authority in making legitimate theology in his epistles. Are you saying you don't care what Paul has to say as God's representative?

SeekingAllTruth said:

The bold in your statement shocks me. Paul claimed to have a direct link to God just like Jesus. That would mean God had given Paul tremendous authority in making legitimate theology in his epistles. Are you saying you don't care what Paul has to say as God's representative?

Click to expand...

Paul just happened to be the first popular evangelist preaching a version of the new after-cross Gospel to the Gentile world. Paul’s teaching heavily influenced the Christian religion, a religion about Jesus, not necessarily the religion of Jesus.

Paul didn’t have a pipeline to God, in fact he brought a lot of his own ideas/baggage to the movement.

cOLTER said:

Paul just happened to be the first popular evangelist preaching a version of the new after-cross Gospel to the Gentile world. Paul’s teaching heavily influenced the Christian religion, a religion about Jesus, not necessarily the religion of Jesus.

Paul didn’t have a pipeline to God, in fact he brought a lot of his own ideas/baggage to the movement.

Click to expand...

You make excellent points. I cannot argue with anything you say.

Humans are humans.

Ice melting a controversial subject.

Jesus theme is heavenly atmospheric.

To give a human real answers you go to the beginning subject.

Ice age. No science.

Then read the text that quotes heavenly spirit rebirth that kept life safe on earth and stable against satanic evil. December ice win Ter....every year rejoiced.

The win in balances. Ice reborn.

Science doesn't thesis ice. A basic aware realisation.

Ice however melted and resurrected the atmospheric spirit

So First you would ask what changed the heavenly spirit to harm a babies life to make a man die age 33 in phenomena status?

As the story is a human story told for humans.

Beginning gases X variable bodies mass exist in atmosphere. Atmospheric body one mass.

Notice you say the word body.

Man nearly wAter percentile body living in water oxygenated heavenly body.

Theme taught flooding saved our life.

Flooding high evaporation involving heavenly body change. Cooling evil spirit attack. Quoted God told the scientist warned him life would be sacrificed

Story says human mind body changed by huge population. Life attacked. Flooding atmospheric cooled gas saved life. Saved life spirit.

Basic scientific information.

Man says scientist pretended science was God. Nuclear crystalline jewEL.

El he says God.

Vision said pyramids were using tops pyramid capped by crystal.

A form of resource without resourcing.

Crystal capping exploded due to pressure changes as capping and face blew off pyramid body. Built for a pressurised state.

Their idea of God not originally a nuclear event became as the end a nuclear event. Using gods highest sounds.

Basic information without science by thinking claiming it's descriptions owned anything other than a discussion of causes.

To a natural mass.

Science cannot claim causes of change to be science.

Science in reality only the reaction held to a body of mass that by percent is removed until the resource is gone.

Is not what occurred as a science study about Jesus. Water is the highest percent for bio. DNA gone a result.

Life resurrection water by body mass returned. Life saved. Living continued.

SeekingAllTruth said:

You make excellent points. I cannot argue with anything you say.

Click to expand...

As cOLTER said, Paul didn’t have a pipeline to God, in fact he brought a lot of his own ideas/baggage to the movement. I agree, but having watched part of the video you posted to me and hearing what Bart Ehrman said, it seems obvious to me that Paul knew more about Jesus than any of the writers of the gospels. Of course that would call the bodily resurrection of Jesus into question, wouldn't it? It would mean that what Paul said about a spiritual resurrection of Jesus is more likely to be true and it would blow the whole damn belief about the boldly resurrection right out of the water.

I cannot thank you enough for sharing all your knowledge regarding history and the Bible and pointing me to that video which I will continue to watch as I have time. I did nit know that Ehrman was once an avid Christian.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Father said God heavens gases own natural light sacrifice.

Symbolic teaching space called a womb is not by word a womb.
Symbolic son of god sacrificed as saving life not a human son.

Is gas mass spirit immaculate body in space womb.

Space oversees the presence immaculate very ancient.

Womb is holy mother. Immaculate conceived spirit cooled earth gas of God.
Womb owning sacrificed body symbolic.

Mother oversees sacrifice is a science symbolism for human spiritual mind owning no destroyer mentality awareness.

Space empty cold massive owns immaculate. Natural history. Why gases not burning exists. Extremely ancient.

As radiating space creation owner universe presence owns burning gases.

Father said our irradiating atmosphere universe was pulled deeper into cold space to stop ancient immaculate gases igniting. Stephen Haw King life living sacrificed conscious teaching.

Reason you changed by science law immaculate space into UFO burning gases at night. Space vacuum saved us but can no longer support natural immaculate history as mass balances.

Law of space notified was changed. A teaching.

We are lucky to still exist.

A real scientist knew that our burning universe had entered immaculate space. Why earrth survived science attack.

By travel away from Sirius galaxy that once our universe shared presence and a higher planet body with. As a universe natural body mass with a sun.

Observation says the galaxies own similar body presence to ours.

We left by vacuum.

Night time even sky set alight. Earth travelled with universe deeper into vacuum. By seventh day vacuum sucked out burn left UFO record as evidence.

Records are evidence. UFO is its own memory recorded evidence that entails past life visions in older days about pyramid sciences in history.

Vision is not science.

UFO alien cooled so humans claim I was saved. Others attacked in same condition.

Saving a false theme no one stopped victimisation.

Reactive point science is evil is and was never the saved moment.

Trailblazer said:

As cOLTER said, Paul didn’t have a pipeline to God, in fact he brought a lot of his own ideas/baggage to the movement. I agree, but having watched part of the video you posted to me and hearing what Bart Ehrman said, it seems obvious to me that Paul knew more about Jesus than any of the writers of the gospels. Of course that would call the bodily resurrection of Jesus into question, wouldn't it? It would mean that what Paul said about a spiritual resurrection of Jesus is more likely to be true and it would blow the whole damn belief about the boldly resurrection right out of the water.

I cannot thank you enough for sharing all your knowledge regarding history and the Bible and pointing me to that video which I will continue to watch as I have time. I did nit know that Ehrman was once an avid Christian.

Click to expand...

Glad you enjoyed it. If you type in "Debate Jesus resurrection" into the YT search about 3 dozen debates come up. I've watched them all.

SeekingAllTruth said:

Glad you enjoyed it. If you type in "Debate Jesus resurrection" into the YT search about 3 dozen debates come up. I've watched them all.

Click to expand...

I always wonder why people are so interested in the resurrection of a physical body from a grave.
Even it it did happen, Jesus would have died later anyway because we are all mortal...... but no! the Church had to make up all kinds of stories about a glorified physical body that can can never die, which is an oxymoron because all physical bodies die. Obviously beliefs don't have to make sense to be believed by Christians.

Is there a reason that you have a such a fascination with the resurrection? Quite honestly, the reason I like to watch these debates is to see the Christians embarrass themselves.

Trailblazer said:

I always wonder why people are so interested in the resurrection of a physical body from a grave.
Even it it did happen, Jesus would have died later anyway because we are all mortal...... but no! the Church had to make up all kinds of stories about a glorified physical body that can can never die, which is an oxymoron because all physical bodies die. Obviously beliefs don't have to make sense to be believed by Christians.

Is there a reason that you have a such a fascination with the resurrection? Quite honestly, the reason I like to watch these debates is to see the Christians embarrass themselves.

Click to expand...

Well, truthfully that's the reason I watch them too. But also to get the real dope on what isn't out there to prove any kind of supernatural event. Did you catch the artful language Licona used in his 4 "proofs" for the resurrection: explanatory scope, embarrassment criteria, empty tomb, as if any of this is real evidence for a resurrection.

SeekingAllTruth said:

Well, truthfully that's the reason I watch them too. But also to get the real dope on what isn't out there to prove any kind of supernatural event. Did you catch the artful language Licona used in his 4 "proofs" for the resurrection: explanatory scope, embarrassment criteria, empty tomb, as if any of this is real evidence for a resurrection.

Click to expand...

No, I do not recall all the details of the debate and it was hard to follow Licona. It was much easier to follow Ehrman.
I plan to resume watching it as soon as I knock off one more Christian post on another thread.

It is excruciatingly painful for me to read what Christians believe but I do it because Baha'is have our duties to God.
It is not as if I believe they will ever change their beliefs, but I learn a lot posting to them and I always hope some nonbeliever might see my retort to the Christian beliefs while passing by.

Admittedly I am starting to lose my patience with some Christians and it is at that point that I know I need to call it quits.

Trailblazer said:

I always wonder why people are so interested in the resurrection of a physical body from a grave.
Even it it did happen, Jesus would have died later anyway because we are all mortal...... but no! the Church had to make up all kinds of stories about a glorified physical body that can can never die, which is an oxymoron because all physical bodies die. Obviously beliefs don't have to make sense to be believed by Christians.

Is there a reason that you have a such a fascination with the resurrection? Quite honestly, the reason I like to watch these debates is to see the Christians embarrass themselves.

Click to expand...

Is it any wonder why you put so much effort into denying the return from death that he foretold? Those of other faiths can’t quite bring themselves to deny all of the Jesus story, just parts that are inconvenient to their conflicted loyalties.

cOLTER said:

Is it any wonder why you put so much effort into denying the return from death that he foretold? Those of other faiths can’t quite bring themselves to deny all of the Jesus story, just parts that are inconvenient to their conflicted loyalties.

Click to expand...

If you really want to know the reason I put in so much effort I will tell you the honest reason. It is because I feel compassion for people who hold false beliefs and I always hold out a glimmer of hope that I might reach one person with the truth. There are also people who have no religious beliefs but want to believe in something that makes sense to them but know not where to turn. I consider these people oppressed through no fault of their own so as a Baha'i it is my God given duty to help them in any way I can. This is the highest station to which a Baha'i can attain, to guide just one soul.

The Bab wrote: “IT is better to guide one soul than to possess all that is on earth, for as long as that guided soul is under the shadow of the Tree of Divine Unity, he and the one who hath guided him will both be recipients of God’s tender mercy, whereas possession of earthly things will cease at the time of death.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 77

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name…….. For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

Baha'u'llah wrote: “What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32

Trailblazer said:

If you really want to know the reason I put in so much effort I will tell you the honest reason. It is because I feel compassion for people who hold false beliefs and I always hold out a glimmer of hope that I might reach one person with the truth. There are also people who have no religious beliefs but want to believe in something that makes sense to them but know not where to turn. I consider these people oppressed through no fault of their own so as a Baha'i it is my God given duty to help them in any way I can. This is the highest station to which a Baha'i can attain, to guide just one soul.

The Bab wrote: “IT is better to guide one soul than to possess all that is on earth, for as long as that guided soul is under the shadow of the Tree of Divine Unity, he and the one who hath guided him will both be recipients of God’s tender mercy, whereas possession of earthly things will cease at the time of death.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 77

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name…….. For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

Baha'u'llah wrote: “What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32

Click to expand...

That’s what I mean. Those who cast their lot with other false shepherds must then try to discredit the one true shepherd. Not only did Jesus foretell his return, he predicted the false prophets that would come later.

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

cOLTER said:

That’s what I mean. Those who cast their lot with other false shepherds must then try to discredit the one true shepherd. Not only did Jesus foretell his return, he predicted the false prophets that would come later.

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

Click to expand...

What you say I am doing is what Christians are doing. They are rejecting the true shepherd that was foretold by Jesus. Baha'u'llah was that shepherd because He is gathering the sheep and unifying mankind into one fold. Jesus did not do that and He will not do it because that was not part of His mission on Earth.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Of course Jesus warned of false prophets because three have been many false prophets, but Jesus never said there would not be a true prophet.

Jesus never foretold His return or promised His return and that is why the prophecies for the return of Christ have all been fulfilled and yet Jesus has not returned.

William Sears, Thief in the Night

Christians will keep waiting forever for the same Jesus to return because they are emotionally attached to the Jesus depicted in the gospels but they will be waiting for nothing.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Trailblazer said:

What you say I am doing is what Christians are doing. They are rejecting the true shepherd that was foretold by Jesus. Baha'u'llah was that shepherd because He is gathering the sheep and unifying mankind into one fold. Jesus did not do that and He will not do it because that was not part of His mission on Earth.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Of course Jesus warned of false prophets because three have been many false prophets, but Jesus never said there would not be a true prophet.

Jesus never foretold His return or promised His return and that is why the prophecies for the return of Christ have all been fulfilled and yet Jesus has not returned.

William Sears, Thief in the Night

Christians will keep waiting forever for the same Jesus to return because they are emotionally attached to the Jesus depicted in the gospels but they will be waiting for nothing.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Click to expand...

Jesus was talking about the presence of his own spirit which he poured out upon all flesh on the day of Pentecost. Now I understand why you twisted the scriptures concerning the spirit of truth.

Jesus was speaking to his apostles and to the times right after his ascension going forward up to today. The spirit of truth is still here with us now as it was then.

16 “I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you.

The Work of the Holy Spirit

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

The spirt of the Son of God combined with the spirit of the Father has been with us since the day of Pentecost.

Trailblazer said:

No, I do not recall all the details of the debate and it was hard to follow Licona. It was much easier to follow Ehrman.
I plan to resume watching it as soon as I knock off one more Christian post on another thread.

It is excruciatingly painful for me to read what Christians believe but I do it because Baha'is have our duties to God.
It is not as if I believe they will ever change their beliefs, but I learn a lot posting to them and I always hope some nonbeliever might see my retort to the Christian beliefs while passing by.

Admittedly I am starting to lose my patience with some Christians and it is at that point that I know I need to call it quits.

Click to expand...

Not too soon. Your own input is very valuable. I learn a lot from it too.

cOLTER said:

Jesus was talking about the presence of his own spirit which he poured out upon all flesh on the day of Pentecost. Now I understand why you twisted the scriptures concerning the spirit of truth.

Click to expand...

I do not have to twist any scriptures because Baha'u'llah was the Spirit Truth.
Christians believe everything in the Bible is about Jesus, but it's not. Any verses that refer to the return of Christ or the Messiah of the latter days are about Baha'u'llah. Jesus never promised to return in the same body, He said He was never coming back to the world (John 14:19, John 17:11).

Jesus promised to send the Comforter/Spirit of Truth, which was Baha'u'llah.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs of Baha’u’llah is that He did exactly what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of Truth would do. Referring to Jesus, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

Referring to Jesus, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

Baha’u’llah also fulfilled the other translation of John 15:26 by bearing witness to Jesus.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

Referring to Jesus, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86