May why dont you stop putting words into Jesus's own mouth and stop making him what you want him to be instead of who he was? He never said anything about "his will" he said I do the will of the father, God, the one God who has no partners. He has I can of mine own self do NOTHING. He never did anything which proved he was God. He always showed that it was God doing the miracles through him. "I by the finger of God cast out devils". "I can of mine own self do NOTHING". What is nothing? Nothing is nothing! Where does he claim to be God!? No where! It dosnt exist. You cant make a man into a God just because you love him. We all love him, you just cant exaggerate in that and make him equal to God. He says "my father is greater than I". "My father is greater than all". What you are doing in unbelievable.
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Proof Jesus Wasn't God
- Thread starter Islam
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Booko
Deviled Hen
*** MOD POST ***
Friends, this is the Biblical Debates area.
Things that have nothing to do with the Bible are off topic in this area. There are other areas on RF to take up more general religious questions -- please feel free to start threads in any of those areas!
Thanks for your cooperation,
Sharon
Friends, this is the Biblical Debates area.
Things that have nothing to do with the Bible are off topic in this area. There are other areas on RF to take up more general religious questions -- please feel free to start threads in any of those areas!
Thanks for your cooperation,
Sharon
"When the angel said, 'O Mary! verily, God gives thee the glad tidings of a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, regarded in this world and the next and of those whose place is nigh to God. And he shall speak to people in his cradle, and when grown up, and shall be among the righteous.' She said, 'Lord! how can have a son, when man has not yet touched me?' He said, 'Thus God creates what He pleaseth. When He decrees a matter He only says BE and it is; and He will teach him the Book, and wisdom, and the law, and the gospel, and he shall be a prophet to the people of Israel (saying), that I have come to you, with a sign from God, namely, that I will create for you out of clay as though it were the form of a bird, and I will blow thereon and it shall become a bird by God's permission; and I will heal the blind from birth, and lepers; and I will bring the dead to life by God's permission; and I will tell you what you eat and what ye store up in your houses. Verily, in that is a sign for you if ye be believers. And I will confirm what is before you of the law, and will surely make lawful for you some of that which was prohibited from you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and follow me, for God is my Lord, and your Lord, so worship Him:- this is the right path.'
And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, He said, 'Who are my helpers for God?' Said the apostles, 'We are God's helpers. We believe in God, so bear witness that we are resigned. Lord, we have believed in what Thou hast revealed, and we have followed the Apostle, so write us down with those which bear witness.' But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust.
That is what we recite to thee of the signs and of the wise reminder. Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who are in doubt. And whoso disputeth with thee after what has come to thee of knowledge, say, 'Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves: then we will imprecate and put God's curse on those who lie.' Verily, those are the true stories, and there is no god but God, and, verily, God He is the mighty, the wise; but if they turn back, God knows the evildoers.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)
God planted His seed in Mary to create Jesus for the purpose of him being a prophet. If all the prophets before Jesus were divinely inspired...why wouldn't God simply divinely inspire someone else? What would be the reasoning in creating A SON? If he was only meant to be a prophet? Jesus is much more than that in my opinion. I believe He is the Son of God.
And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, He said, 'Who are my helpers for God?' Said the apostles, 'We are God's helpers. We believe in God, so bear witness that we are resigned. Lord, we have believed in what Thou hast revealed, and we have followed the Apostle, so write us down with those which bear witness.' But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust.
That is what we recite to thee of the signs and of the wise reminder. Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who are in doubt. And whoso disputeth with thee after what has come to thee of knowledge, say, 'Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves: then we will imprecate and put God's curse on those who lie.' Verily, those are the true stories, and there is no god but God, and, verily, God He is the mighty, the wise; but if they turn back, God knows the evildoers.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)
God planted His seed in Mary to create Jesus for the purpose of him being a prophet. If all the prophets before Jesus were divinely inspired...why wouldn't God simply divinely inspire someone else? What would be the reasoning in creating A SON? If he was only meant to be a prophet? Jesus is much more than that in my opinion. I believe He is the Son of God.
In addition to my previous post (my apologies, I do not have the exact Bible verse - but I think it has been posted SOMEWHERE on this thread...)...the Bible verse went something like 'The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son'.
I saw this elsewhere on RF:
You have:
a) God, the Father [the giver of the gift]
b) Jesus, the Son (or the Prophet, as you would have me say) [the receiver of the gift]
c) The Holy Spirit [the gift itself]
Only those filled with the Holy Spirit will enter Heaven. If we believe in God and Jesus, we will receive the Holy Spirit and therefore enter Heaven.
As a side note: If you wish to continue trying to disprove Christianity, please, make a website showing all you have to say about Islam. Put the link in your signature. Case closed...you don't need to continue making countless threads on this subject.
I saw this elsewhere on RF:
You have:
a) God, the Father [the giver of the gift]
b) Jesus, the Son (or the Prophet, as you would have me say) [the receiver of the gift]
c) The Holy Spirit [the gift itself]
Only those filled with the Holy Spirit will enter Heaven. If we believe in God and Jesus, we will receive the Holy Spirit and therefore enter Heaven.
As a side note: If you wish to continue trying to disprove Christianity, please, make a website showing all you have to say about Islam. Put the link in your signature. Case closed...you don't need to continue making countless threads on this subject.
Kpereria why all the anger? The verse you are reffering to is "I and the father are one". It is metaphoricaly speaking, meaning in purpose, they are one, Proof is that he also says to his disciples "I and the father and you are one". As for why Jesus was created this way, this up to Allah, He does what He wills, simple as that.
Islam said:
If you really are genuine in your attempt to understand the Christian POV, I can do no better than to direct you to :- http://www.basicchristian.org/ProofJesusGod.pdf
Every instance of proof is taken from Biblical text; if you wish to disprove the material, then by all means attempt to do so.
as one of Jehovahs witnesses i do not believe Jesus was God HE WAS GODS SON Jehovah God is greater than Jesus just as you say .Islam said:
Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of MY FATHER who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. matthew 7;21
May, I will let God answer you form the Quran:
"This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.
The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt."
Thank you michel.
KPereira not only what you're saying doesnt exist in the Bible, but it used to exist (for there are three that bear in heaven, the father the son and the holly ghost) and that verse was taken out as a fabrication.
Follow what you hear so blindly, which isnt even backed up from biblical proof!
"They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
(9-31)
"This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.
The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt."
Thank you michel.
KPereira not only what you're saying doesnt exist in the Bible, but it used to exist (for there are three that bear in heaven, the father the son and the holly ghost) and that verse was taken out as a fabrication.
Follow what you hear so blindly, which isnt even backed up from biblical proof!
"They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
(9-31)
DiscipleOfChrist
Member
The Truth lies not only what comes from the scripture, but form the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is Almighty GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of PEACE. Are you familiar with Immanuel? GOD WITH US! The Word made flesh, God was and is the Word and put Himself to the flesh so that He could conqure death for us. We could not on our own. Jesus Said He would destroy the temple and HE would rebuild it in three days! He is GOD! What more could you ask for God himself to come and die for us? Did Islams God suffer and die for his creation. The truth lies in spirit and those that know the way recognize it. It is in Christs Divine mercy and love you see and know the truth and His spirit is with you. The forgiveness Jesus Christ offers is proof within itself.
God made us in His image. HE created us to be with Him but in free will we chose to go away from Him. So He delivered us from sin, He came to us and everything was renewed becasue of His death and ressurection. Without the ressurection we would still be in our sins and would not have the life within us. But HE has risen and He is the way the truth and the LIFE! He began the book of life! No one gets to the Father except through Him becasue HE is the FATHER! We were set free from ultimate death because He conqured it. Sin is Separation from God ultimate death. God came to US so that We could go to Him if we die with faith in Christ and are mindful of what He has done for us.
God made us in His image. HE created us to be with Him but in free will we chose to go away from Him. So He delivered us from sin, He came to us and everything was renewed becasue of His death and ressurection. Without the ressurection we would still be in our sins and would not have the life within us. But HE has risen and He is the way the truth and the LIFE! He began the book of life! No one gets to the Father except through Him becasue HE is the FATHER! We were set free from ultimate death because He conqured it. Sin is Separation from God ultimate death. God came to US so that We could go to Him if we die with faith in Christ and are mindful of what He has done for us.
That's odd...a posted a reply, but it isn't showing up. Crap...it was long too. Now I have to type it all out again :cover:!It won't be the same, but I'll try and remember what I wrote.
However, do you not see something wrong with that statement? If Islam could be proven...then it would not be a religion, but fact. If Islam could be proven, that means that there wouldn't be any athiests, Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Pagans, etc etc. If Islam could be proven...which it hasn't and your 'proof' is quite unconvincing...this means that the laws of science need to be rewritten, for an all-powerful God can break all laws of science and therefore must be added as an exception.
Yet, I don't see it on the front page of the newspaper. I don't see it on the TV. Islam hasn't been proven and it never will. The fact that Islam has not been proven or disproven makes it a religion. The same goes for Christianity. If ANY member of RF could disprove an entire religion...can you even begin to comprehend the catastrophic consequences of that, Islam? If Catholicism was disproven (and Islam proven)...that means 1 BILLION making a mass exodus out of the Catholic Church. Vatican City would be useless. Over 2000 years of history...pointless. And, since Catholicism is closely linked to quite a few other religions and Christian sects, those would fall as well. This is my estimate here, but I think that the numbers of all the Protestant groups combined would amount to another billion. That means approximately one third of the world, Islam, would be 'proven wrong' on Christianity alone. That isn't figuring in the number of athiests and other non-Islamic religions.
Values and traditions which people have held dear for millenia would have fallen apart with a few of your words. Do you honestly believe yourself capable of that? You are trying to disprove Christianity with Islam, a religion that isn't proven itself. If you can't even prove Islam, what makes you think you can disprove Christianity? You can't.
Does it honestly make so much of a difference, Islam, if people worship slightly different from you? Apart from the obvious Jesus issue, Christianity and Islam aren't that far apart. Even so, I don't have a compelling need to disprove your beliefs. Why should my beliefs, then, be subject of numerous attacks?
Anger? No, I'm not angry. A little peeved, though. Just make a website. Put all your efforts into that. Put up your 'proof' of Islam and go ahead...'disprove' Christianity.Islam said:
However, do you not see something wrong with that statement? If Islam could be proven...then it would not be a religion, but fact. If Islam could be proven, that means that there wouldn't be any athiests, Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Pagans, etc etc. If Islam could be proven...which it hasn't and your 'proof' is quite unconvincing...this means that the laws of science need to be rewritten, for an all-powerful God can break all laws of science and therefore must be added as an exception.
Yet, I don't see it on the front page of the newspaper. I don't see it on the TV. Islam hasn't been proven and it never will. The fact that Islam has not been proven or disproven makes it a religion. The same goes for Christianity. If ANY member of RF could disprove an entire religion...can you even begin to comprehend the catastrophic consequences of that, Islam? If Catholicism was disproven (and Islam proven)...that means 1 BILLION making a mass exodus out of the Catholic Church. Vatican City would be useless. Over 2000 years of history...pointless. And, since Catholicism is closely linked to quite a few other religions and Christian sects, those would fall as well. This is my estimate here, but I think that the numbers of all the Protestant groups combined would amount to another billion. That means approximately one third of the world, Islam, would be 'proven wrong' on Christianity alone. That isn't figuring in the number of athiests and other non-Islamic religions.
Values and traditions which people have held dear for millenia would have fallen apart with a few of your words. Do you honestly believe yourself capable of that? You are trying to disprove Christianity with Islam, a religion that isn't proven itself. If you can't even prove Islam, what makes you think you can disprove Christianity? You can't.
Does it honestly make so much of a difference, Islam, if people worship slightly different from you? Apart from the obvious Jesus issue, Christianity and Islam aren't that far apart. Even so, I don't have a compelling need to disprove your beliefs. Why should my beliefs, then, be subject of numerous attacks?
Islam is proven. Islam simply is worship God and associate no partners with him. No family no trinity no sons. This is what the natural human brain concludes if it believes in God, that He is one, this is Islam, and He is perfect.
heres some scientific miracles for u:
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
heres some scientific miracles for u:
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html
Pick your choice, which God do you chose to worship?
Does God Rest?
Bible:
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exodus 31:17
Quran:
050.038
We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.
Gods Power:
Bible:
Genesis 32:28
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;[a] for you have struggled with God and with men, AND HAVE PREVAILED.”
"And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had Chariots OF IRON." JUDGES 1:19
Quran:
022.074
They measure not Allah His rightful measure. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty.
Can God Be Seen:
"It is because I saw God face to face and yet my life was spared." (Genesis 32:30)
contradicted by: "But He (God) said: "You cannot see my face for no one may see me and live." (Exodus 33:20)
Quran:
No vision can grasp Him, but He grasps all vision. (6:103)
Does God Sleep:
Bible:
(Psalms 78:65)
65 Then the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine.
Quran:
(2:255)
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
God married Jerusalem and she became a prostitute:
Ezekiel 16:3-32
Quran:
And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say: "Allah has begotten a son." No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Grievous is the word that comes out of their mouths. They utter nothing but a lie. Perhaps you would kill yourself (O Mohammed) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because not in this narration (the Quran).
(18:4-6)
002.116
They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
Prophet Lot:
Bible:
That night they got their father to drink wine (Lot), and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.. So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. (genesis 19:33-36)
Quran:
021.074
And to Lut, too, We gave Judgment and Knowledge, and We saved him from the town which practised abominations: truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.
And We admitted him to Our Mercy: for he was one of the Righteous.
Jesus's behavior towards Marry, peace be upon them:
Bible:
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, WHAT HAVE I TO DO WITH THEE ? mine hour is not yet come.
"Who is my mother" (Matthew 12:47-49)
(can you imagine if a son tells his mother that what her reaction would be? A heart attack would be the least)
Quran:
019.030
He said (Jesus) : "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable"
(btw this is Jesus's first miracle in the Quran. It is a miracle which isnt in the Bible. This verse was him speaking as a newly born, he was born, and when the people asked who his father was, he replied and said the verse I quoted, Jesus's first miracle in the bible was turning water into wine, his first miracle in the Quran was to defend his mother)
In conclusion: Deutronemy 18:15 speaks of God raising a prophet form the Jews's BRETHREN. Who are there brethren? The Arabs. You know its Mohammed peace be upon him yet you reject the truth.
Does God Rest?
Bible:
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exodus 31:17
Quran:
050.038
We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.
Gods Power:
Bible:
Genesis 32:28
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;[a] for you have struggled with God and with men, AND HAVE PREVAILED.”
"And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had Chariots OF IRON." JUDGES 1:19
Quran:
022.074
They measure not Allah His rightful measure. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty.
Can God Be Seen:
"It is because I saw God face to face and yet my life was spared." (Genesis 32:30)
contradicted by: "But He (God) said: "You cannot see my face for no one may see me and live." (Exodus 33:20)
Quran:
No vision can grasp Him, but He grasps all vision. (6:103)
Does God Sleep:
Bible:
(Psalms 78:65)
65 Then the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine.
Quran:
(2:255)
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
God married Jerusalem and she became a prostitute:
Ezekiel 16:3-32
Quran:
And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say: "Allah has begotten a son." No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Grievous is the word that comes out of their mouths. They utter nothing but a lie. Perhaps you would kill yourself (O Mohammed) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because not in this narration (the Quran).
(18:4-6)
002.116
They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
Prophet Lot:
Bible:
That night they got their father to drink wine (Lot), and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.. So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. (genesis 19:33-36)
Quran:
021.074
And to Lut, too, We gave Judgment and Knowledge, and We saved him from the town which practised abominations: truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.
And We admitted him to Our Mercy: for he was one of the Righteous.
Jesus's behavior towards Marry, peace be upon them:
Bible:
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, WHAT HAVE I TO DO WITH THEE ? mine hour is not yet come.
"Who is my mother" (Matthew 12:47-49)
(can you imagine if a son tells his mother that what her reaction would be? A heart attack would be the least)
Quran:
019.030
He said (Jesus) : "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable"
(btw this is Jesus's first miracle in the Quran. It is a miracle which isnt in the Bible. This verse was him speaking as a newly born, he was born, and when the people asked who his father was, he replied and said the verse I quoted, Jesus's first miracle in the bible was turning water into wine, his first miracle in the Quran was to defend his mother)
In conclusion: Deutronemy 18:15 speaks of God raising a prophet form the Jews's BRETHREN. Who are there brethren? The Arabs. You know its Mohammed peace be upon him yet you reject the truth.
If Jesus was GOD:
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?
If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?
The "God" Title:
How come Christians take the "God" (theos in Greek) title literally with Jesus in Isiah 9:6 and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called Gods ?
The Prophets who were called "God" in the Bible are as follows:
Prophet Moses in Exodus 7:1
The Devil in Corinthians 4:4 (the word for God in this verse is theos in Greek, the same used for Jesus that was translated as "God")
Multiple Prophets in Psalms 82:6
King David in Psalm 45:3
Note: The only unique title given to GOD in the Bible that was not given to others at all are Jehova, GOD, and GOD LORD. "God", "Most Mighty" and "Almighty One" are titles that were given to Jesus, other Prophets and to Satan himself in the Bible.
Very important note: Did you know that in the languages of Arabic and Hebrew the father of the house can be called the God of the house? Jesus was the God (father or leader) of his people and their father according to Isiah 9:6. Jesus being the leader and the king, it is normal for him to be called the father of his people (Father in Isiah 9:6), and because he is their father he automatically becomes their God. My father is my God in Arabic and Hebrew.
The "Son" Title:
How come Christians take the "God's Son" title literally with Jesus and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?
In John 3:16 Jesus was called God's only Begotten Son.
In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehova, Isreal is my son, even my firstborn." Isreal was called God's First Son.
In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Isreal, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.
In Psalm 2:7 "... Jehova had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." David was called God's Begotten Son.
Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?
If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?
Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).
Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).
Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).
Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"
In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!
Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "
Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."
And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."
The Point that I am trying to prove:
Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God's words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God. Muslims also believe that Jesus was never crucified, nor ever died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was sent to earth to die on the cross
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?
If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?
The "God" Title:
How come Christians take the "God" (theos in Greek) title literally with Jesus in Isiah 9:6 and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called Gods ?
The Prophets who were called "God" in the Bible are as follows:
Prophet Moses in Exodus 7:1
The Devil in Corinthians 4:4 (the word for God in this verse is theos in Greek, the same used for Jesus that was translated as "God")
Multiple Prophets in Psalms 82:6
King David in Psalm 45:3
Note: The only unique title given to GOD in the Bible that was not given to others at all are Jehova, GOD, and GOD LORD. "God", "Most Mighty" and "Almighty One" are titles that were given to Jesus, other Prophets and to Satan himself in the Bible.
Very important note: Did you know that in the languages of Arabic and Hebrew the father of the house can be called the God of the house? Jesus was the God (father or leader) of his people and their father according to Isiah 9:6. Jesus being the leader and the king, it is normal for him to be called the father of his people (Father in Isiah 9:6), and because he is their father he automatically becomes their God. My father is my God in Arabic and Hebrew.
The "Son" Title:
How come Christians take the "God's Son" title literally with Jesus and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?
In John 3:16 Jesus was called God's only Begotten Son.
In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehova, Isreal is my son, even my firstborn." Isreal was called God's First Son.
In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Isreal, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.
In Psalm 2:7 "... Jehova had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." David was called God's Begotten Son.
Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?
If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?
Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).
Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).
Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).
Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"
In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!
Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "
Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."
And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."
The Point that I am trying to prove:
Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God's words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God. Muslims also believe that Jesus was never crucified, nor ever died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was sent to earth to die on the cross
Judgement Day
Active Member
I think it is very crystal clear whether Jesus is God or not. Set aside all your perceptions, and look at how plain and straight forward the content of the bible was composed. After all, God's words was never meant to be too hard to understand. Don't think too much.
sonflour_2001
Member
I've noticed that a lot of posts from the Islamic point of view emphasize how their God cannot be seen. Are you sure? Is it impossible to see Allah? What if Allah allows man to see him? If you are saying that Allah cannot even will Allah to be seen, then such a belief contradicts his omnipotence. Sure you could say that Allah won't, but then you would be predicting Allah's actions...not good either. You could also say that Allah wouldn't do such a thing because he won't contradict his word...but then that would make him bound to a book...so much for omnipotence.
However, from the Christian understanding, we know that God can do anything, and even if it seems to contradict his word initially to our inferior senses, his power is great enough that she* can reconcile her works even to a limited piece of literature. Now that's power. Imagine having one word and being able to fit an infinite amount of meanings into that one word, so that it seems contradictory sometimes, but simultaneously rational as well. That's what paradox is. Now imagine having an entire bible to do that with. As of right now, we don't have the power to do it, but God can.
Also from the Christian concept of God, God is at the same time transcendent and emminent. Thus, he surpasses everything, but this facet of transcendence also necessarily means that he transcends even separation from his people, so that he resides in everything and is able to manifest himself whenever and however he will, at will.
As for the whole issue of God having to rest, the entire creation story needs to be understood metaphorically, b/c time isn't the same or doesn't exist for the God in the way we understand it. Truly, God's power is such that everything he "does" is already manifest...thus he truly is simply at rest. He doesn't have to "do" anything really. Actions are characteristics of the human realm. God simply is that he is, and by being that everything else, (i.e. creation, and whatever else) simply comes along for the ride as a result of God's infinite power.
Me loves theological concepts.
They always kind of circle around each other....
Happy responding
Dee
B.T.W. Islam is a beautiful tradition, and I'm perennialist so I love your religion and all other great world religions just as much as I love my Christianity. Many ways up the same mountain. Yeah...I'm one of those...
*Also note that I change gender pronouns regularly when referring to God to get myself out of the habit of associating him with anyone gender, seeing as how God transcends or unifies all of those differences.
However, from the Christian understanding, we know that God can do anything, and even if it seems to contradict his word initially to our inferior senses, his power is great enough that she* can reconcile her works even to a limited piece of literature. Now that's power. Imagine having one word and being able to fit an infinite amount of meanings into that one word, so that it seems contradictory sometimes, but simultaneously rational as well. That's what paradox is. Now imagine having an entire bible to do that with. As of right now, we don't have the power to do it, but God can.
Also from the Christian concept of God, God is at the same time transcendent and emminent. Thus, he surpasses everything, but this facet of transcendence also necessarily means that he transcends even separation from his people, so that he resides in everything and is able to manifest himself whenever and however he will, at will.
As for the whole issue of God having to rest, the entire creation story needs to be understood metaphorically, b/c time isn't the same or doesn't exist for the God in the way we understand it. Truly, God's power is such that everything he "does" is already manifest...thus he truly is simply at rest. He doesn't have to "do" anything really. Actions are characteristics of the human realm. God simply is that he is, and by being that everything else, (i.e. creation, and whatever else) simply comes along for the ride as a result of God's infinite power.
Me loves theological concepts.
They always kind of circle around each other....
Happy responding
Dee
B.T.W. Islam is a beautiful tradition, and I'm perennialist so I love your religion and all other great world religions just as much as I love my Christianity. Many ways up the same mountain. Yeah...I'm one of those...
*Also note that I change gender pronouns regularly when referring to God to get myself out of the habit of associating him with anyone gender, seeing as how God transcends or unifies all of those differences.
sonflour_2001
Member
Furthermore, as for Jesus being God...yeah...he was. The remarkable thing is that he told us that we would do even greater things in his name. Jesus' purpose was to show us the potential that lies in all of us...to transcend our humanity and grasp that seed of righteousness within: obtain full unity with God.
Christ came and suffered and did that, but he didn't cut us off from that legacy. Instead he modestly opened the door wide open and exhorted us to "partake in our divine union with God."
This isn't so different from what many in the Sufi tradition of Islam believed.
Dee
Christ came and suffered and did that, but he didn't cut us off from that legacy. Instead he modestly opened the door wide open and exhorted us to "partake in our divine union with God."
This isn't so different from what many in the Sufi tradition of Islam believed.
Dee
DiscipleOfChrist
Member
John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Daniel 7:13-14 [13] "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [14] He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:3-12 [3] Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I CAME FROM YOU, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--THE NAME YOU GAVE ME--so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
God is in Christ!!!
(He is still Here) when there -----------> (went here)
GOD ------------------------> (Made Flesh ,Jesus) -----> <-------- We see God in Christ
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Daniel 7:13-14 [13] "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [14] He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:3-12 [3] Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I CAME FROM YOU, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--THE NAME YOU GAVE ME--so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
God is in Christ!!!
(He is still Here) when there -----------> (went here)
GOD ------------------------> (Made Flesh ,Jesus) -----> <-------- We see God in Christ
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
Why you guys dont answer any question or a post directly?...you always seem like skipping important posts...
And as usuall, replying by typing more versus from the Bible that shows nothing but how contradictory it is...
so what do you say in :
Lots and many many versus indicate Jesus is not God...however, many many others show that Jesus is God....What does that mean?!
Can we really prove the validity of the Bible to be the ultimate reference for such a basic issue?
I don't know how Christians are still not sure about the identity of God, some believe in the Trinity, others worship Mary as well...How can you not be sure about your religion's "abc''??
I see the Quranic versus more stronger and direct in this issue than the Bible..