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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But remember, the section you are quoting is the perception that the other nations have -- it isn't an official pronouncement of divine ruling, but the other nations, realizing that they sinned and deserved punishment, and yet it was Israel that suffered, see Israel as getting punished when they, themselves should have been. As the Ibn Ezra writes, "In consequence of the troubles of Israel, the other nations had peace; the punishment which the latter deserved was inflicted upon the former."

There is the Noachide covenant which they are bound by which forbids violence, and requires that all acknowledge God and the rectitude of the Torah - in which case, oppressing the nation which God has established a covenant with would be a problem.

Israel becomes great for, among other reasons, its faith and its good deeds. There is a concept of reward, so as Israel has allowed itself to be the whipping boy for the world, and it has "bore the guilt of the many And made intercession for sinners" God assures additional reward. Also, from the Ibn Ezra "He prayed to God for the transgressors. Comp. Jer. 29:7"

The suffering servant is innocent and sinless-that's not true of Israel. The suffering servant was humble and voluntarily submits. Israel never voluntarily submitted to suffering. Israel never suffered for other peoples sins.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But remember, the section you are quoting is the perception that the other nations have -- it isn't an official pronouncement of divine ruling, but the other nations, realizing that they sinned and deserved punishment, and yet it was Israel that suffered, see Israel as getting punished when they, themselves should have been. As the Ibn Ezra writes, "In consequence of the troubles of Israel, the other nations had peace; the punishment which the latter deserved was inflicted upon the former."

There is the Noachide covenant which they are bound by which forbids violence, and requires that all acknowledge God and the rectitude of the Torah - in which case, oppressing the nation which God has established a covenant with would be a problem.

Israel becomes great for, among other reasons, its faith and its good deeds. There is a concept of reward, so as Israel has allowed itself to be the whipping boy for the world, and it has "bore the guilt of the many And made intercession for sinners" God assures additional reward. Also, from the Ibn Ezra "He prayed to God for the transgressors. Comp. Jer. 29:7"

How did Israel bear the guilt of many? Was Jesus the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53?

The Jews of the first century were expecting a Messiah who would slay their foes and lift them up into a magnificent new political regime. The concept of a crucified Savior was wholly foreign to the general expectation of the first-century Hebrew (cf. 1 Cor. 1:23).
And so it would require overwhelming evidence to persuade a Jew, such as Peter (particularly with his resistant temperament), that Jesus of Nazareth was the “servant” of Isaiah 53. And yet, he was convinced of that reality — so convinced, in fact, that he was willing to die for that conviction (Lk. 22:33; cf. Jn. 21:18-19).
The quibble under review, therefore, is without substance. The identification of Jesus of Nazareth, as the leading character of Isaiah 53, remains irrefutable.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
God doesn't need a rationale for forgiving us, he is by nature a merciful God who wants to reconcile with all who will.

There is no exact divine equivalent to how God and a legal system would deal with the wrong thing being done, because there is no exact equivalent in human law of sin separating people from God.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So, just to be clear. When you said: "Job knew that the Son of God was to be his mediator." You added the part about "Son of God".

It's time to show some integrity and admit that you are misquoting and adding things to the text. Please do so.

Saying that doesn't make it true.

Maybe you're making up your own version of the New Covenant? Here's the text of how the New Covenant is described in the Christian bible:

Hebrews 8:13

View attachment 46398
"He has made obsolete the first."



No. 4:2 specifically says do not add or remove to the mitzvot, the commandments.


View attachment 46400

Ignored: Yahweh referencing Father, Son, Holy Spirit is not in Torah.

Ignored: Equating the Messiah with God is not in Torah

Please see my comment above showing the text of Hebrews 8:13. You are making up your own definition of New Covenant. The verse from Isaiah is irrelevant.

Perhaps you should describe an example where you think both covenants are followed?

Following Jesus and being Jewish isn't following two religions at the same time because following Jesus is a relationship, not a religion. If Christianity is the truth then Judaism is also the truth

I don't think Christianity was ever intended to become a religion.

Jesus was Jew, and he remained a Jew until he died. And Jews then and now do not believe that anyone else needs to become a Jew to be aright with God. So Jesus was not preaching adherence to any religion, except as a Jew preaching to his fellow Jews. To the rest of us he was simply preaching a spiritual revelation. Modern day Christians who think they are supposed to adhere to Old Testament religiosity because "Jesus said so" are very confused, and I think, quite wrong. They are imposing religiosity where Jesus had no intention of imposing it.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So, just to be clear. When you said: "Job knew that the Son of God was to be his mediator." You added the part about "Son of God".

It's time to show some integrity and admit that you are misquoting and adding things to the text. Please do so.

Saying that doesn't make it true.

Maybe you're making up your own version of the New Covenant? Here's the text of how the New Covenant is described in the Christian bible:

Hebrews 8:13

View attachment 46398
"He has made obsolete the first."



No. 4:2 specifically says do not add or remove to the mitzvot, the commandments.


View attachment 46400

Ignored: Yahweh referencing Father, Son, Holy Spirit is not in Torah.

Ignored: Equating the Messiah with God is not in Torah

Please see my comment above showing the text of Hebrews 8:13. You are making up your own definition of New Covenant. The verse from Isaiah is irrelevant.

Perhaps you should describe an example where you think both covenants are followed?

The term Christianity did not exist during the time of Jesus. People believed in Jesus. Christianity as a separate belief system from Judaism came about from there being Gentiles who believed in Jesus and Jewish people who didn't believe in Jesus.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The term Christianity did not exist during the time of Jesus. People believed in Jesus. Christianity as a separate belief system from Judaism came about from there being Gentiles who believed in Jesus and Jewish people who didn't believe in Jesus.
The whole Christian movement did not exist at the time of Jesus. Jesus was an observant Jew. He did not set out to start another religion.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The whole Christian movement did not exist at the time of Jesus. Jesus was an observant Jew. He did not set out to start another religion.

That doesn't disprove the teachings of Jesus. To say that the teachings of Jesus are false because him and his followers weren't Christian is semantics. I know someone from a church I used to go to who said he follows the Messiah of Israel.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That doesn't disprove the teachings of Jesus. To say that the teachings of Jesus are false because him and his followers weren't Christian is semantics. I know someone from a church I used to go to who said he follows the Messiah of Israel.
The Messiah of Israel has not come yet. All you have is the Christian Christ, who is a totally different animal.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The Messiah of Israel has not come yet. All you have is the Christian Christ, who is a totally different animal.

How does the term Christian not existing at the time of Jesus mean that Jesus isn't the Messiah of Israel? There was no Christmas or Easter or churches during the time of Jesus, but many Christians don't go to church and they believe the holidays are pagan.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
How does the term Christian not existing at the time of Jesus mean that Jesus isn't the Messiah of Israel? There was no Christmas or Easter or churches during the time of Jesus, but many Christians don't go to church and they believe the holidays are pagan.
The reason Jesus isn't the Messiah of Israel is that he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh. Oh I know Christians say he fulfilled hundreds, but that is almost entirely them taking verses out of context and creating prophecies where none exist. There are actually very few prophecies.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The reason Jesus isn't the Messiah of Israel is that he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh. Oh I know Christians say he fulfilled hundreds, but that is almost entirely them taking verses out of context and creating prophecies where none exist. There are actually very few prophecies.

The Old Testament mentions the Messiah having a second advent. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No it doesn't.

Think about it, if the Messiah could fulfill the prophecies a second time around, anyone could claim to be the Messiah. *I* could even claim to be the Messiah. No, there is no, "Hey I'm the Messiah, and I'll fulfill the prophecies next time I come." The ONLY way we will know the Messiah is that he will fulfill the prophecies -- all of them.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No it doesn't.

Think about it, if the Messiah could fulfill the prophecies a second time around, anyone could claim to be the Messiah. *I* could even claim to be the Messiah. No, there is no, "Hey I'm the Messiah, and I'll fulfill the prophecies next time I come." The ONLY way we will know the Messiah is that he will fulfill the prophecies -- all of them.

That there are false Messiahs doesn't mean that Jesus is one of them. The Antichrist will be the ultimate false Messiah.

What is the little horn in the book of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org

Daniel is troubled by the vision of the beast and the little horn, and he asks specifically about it (Daniel 7:19). An angel explains: the beast’s ten horns are ten kings who will arise from that kingdom (verse 24). A horn in the Bible is often a symbol of strength and authority (see Psalm 89:24 and 132:17). The little, boastful horn with a human mouth and eyes represents a specific king; at his rise to power, three of the original kings will fall. This evil king pictured as the little horn “will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people” (Daniel 7:25). He will seek to change times and laws, and he will exert oppressive power over God’s people for three and a half years (verse 25).
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That there are false Messiahs doesn't mean that Jesus is one of them. The Antichrist will be the ultimate false Messiah.

What is the little horn in the book of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org
Forget about Daniel -- it will not tell you who the messiah will be.

The only way to know the messiah is to find someone who fulfills ALL the messianic prophecies. Jesus simply did not do that. He did not usher in an era of world peace. He did not bring all the Jews back to Israel. He did not rule from Jerusalem. Thus, he CANNOT be the messiah, no matter how much you want him to be.
 

Batya

Always Forward
No it doesn't.

Think about it, if the Messiah could fulfill the prophecies a second time around, anyone could claim to be the Messiah. *I* could even claim to be the Messiah. No, there is no, "Hey I'm the Messiah, and I'll fulfill the prophecies next time I come." The ONLY way we will know the Messiah is that he will fulfill the prophecies -- all of them.
Well not just everyone could come around a second time. :) This is kind of a subjective thing to discuss because one can't 100% prove that he will come back, and another can't 100% prove he won't.
What about the place where it says the Messiah will come riding on a donkey's colt, and in Daniel where it says he will come on the clouds? Or do you not think Daniel is talking about the Messiah?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Forget about Daniel -- it will not tell you who the messiah will be.

The only way to know the messiah is to find someone who fulfills ALL the messianic prophecies. Jesus simply did not do that. He did not usher in an era of world peace. He did not bring all the Jews back to Israel. He did not rule from Jerusalem. Thus, he CANNOT be the messiah, no matter how much you want him to be.

Daniel mentioned that in the future there will be a false Messiah who will speak against God and oppress his people. What is the little horn in the book of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org

The fourth beast that Daniel saw was the Roman Empire, the world kingdom that would arise after Greece. The little horn that Daniel saw is a world leader especially noted for his blasphemies and the scope of his power. Because this little horn is ruling at the time Judgment Day comes, we identify it as the Antichrist, the “ruler who will come” who sets up the abomination in Daniel 9:27. The mention of three and a half years corresponds with the duration of the Antichrist’s rule in Revelation 11:2; 12:14; and 13:5.

What Daniel talked about matches what the New Testament says about the Antichrist.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Daniel mentioned that in the future there will be a false Messiah who will speak against God and oppress his people. What is the little horn in the book of Daniel? | GotQuestions.org



What Daniel talked about matches what the New Testament says about the Antichrist.
Who knows what the little horn is? That's the problem with apocalyptic literature, and is why I don't waste time studying much of Daniel. But one thing is certain--he is not anti-Jesus. Jesus is irrelevant to Daniel.

Are you simply pasting questions from GotQuestions.org? If so please stop. I don't respond to unoriginal texts. I want to talk to YOU. I am not here to surf the web.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well not just everyone could come around a second time. :) This is kind of a subjective thing to discuss because one can't 100% prove that he will come back, and another can't 100% prove he won't.
What about the place where it says the Messiah will come riding on a donkey's colt, and in Daniel where it says he will come on the clouds? Or do you not think Daniel is talking about the Messiah?
My argument proves that NO messiah (and there will only be one) will come a second time. The job of the messiah is to rule during the messianic age. A contender will either do that or he won't. Jesus did not.

It is said that how the Messiah arrives depends on the state of the People of Israel. If we are observant/obedient, he will arrive in glory on a horse. If we are unfaithful/disobedient, he will only come riding a donkey.
 

Batya

Always Forward
My argument proves that NO messiah (and there will only be one) will come a second time. The job of the messiah is to rule during the messianic age. A contender will either do that or he won't. Jesus did not.

It is said that how the Messiah arrives depends on the state of the People of Israel. If we are observant/obedient, he will arrive in glory on a horse. If we are unfaithful/disobedient, he will only come riding a donkey.
I understand.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Who knows what the little horn is? That's the problem with apocalyptic literature, and is why I don't waste time studying much of Daniel. But one thing is certain--he is not anti-Jesus. Jesus is irrelevant to Daniel.

Are you simply pasting questions from GotQuestions.org? If so please stop. I don't respond to unoriginal texts. I want to talk to YOU. I am not here to surf the web.

I believe that evil exists because one third of the angels wanted to be God. If there is good, there is evil. If there a Messiah, there is an opposite-because Satan copies God.
 
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