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How Much of the New Testament Is Actually New?

Brian2

Veteran Member
And if the new covenant is the Torah written in our hearts, we should be keeping the Torah, correct?

Yes, we should be keeping the Torah by following God's Spirit in us.
Do Jews keep the Torah literally or as interpreted for you by Judaism?
 

Batya

Always Forward
Yes, we should be keeping the Torah by following God's Spirit in us.
Do Jews keep the Torah literally or as interpreted for you by Judaism?
It depends, most Jews follow the Torah and the oral Torah, with a few (the Karaites, I believe, although I could be wrong, and perhaps there's a few others besides) who just follow the written Torah. Personally, I believe in scripture alone as the authority, although our understandings of some things that are not so clear in the Torah (such as the way to slaughter animals) come from from Judaism.
 

Batya

Always Forward
Any verse where Jesus says that?
His first priority was Israel, and particularly those in the dispersion.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

The new covenant was only made with Israel and Judah, though gentiles can become part of the covenant just as Ruth did. Those who come to Messiah really aren't gentiles anymore, they are grafted in to Israel.
 

capumetu

Active Member
Did Yeshua come as a radical revolutionary to do away with an old, outdated system? Is the NT all about grace and love, whereas the tanach was full of wrath and judgment? Does the New Testament lay out new standards for us to live by, doing away with the need to follow the torah?
These are all things I've heard, and I want to know what y'all think about these and other things, and why. Keep in mind that YHWH does not change.
First of all maam I would like to mention, there really is no such thing as Old and New Testament, that is simply a term used to separate the Hebrew written and Greek written scriptures. The Bible is one book made up of 66 books.

The Bible takes us from past to future. Right in the garden of Eden Jehovah made the very first prophecy, Gen 3:15. That seed that would crush the serpent was none other than Jesus who came right on time. The movement forward basically through the whole "Old Testament" was a tutor leading to Christ Rom 3:24 That is where the Greek scriptures pick up, and the movement forward in fulfilling that initial prophecy continues.


Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

You are quite right, neither Jehovah nor Jesus changes, no sinless being will. The only change they can make is to sin.
 

Batya

Always Forward
Where does Jesus say that if you dont mind me asking?


Roman's 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.

Isaiah 56:3-5 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

I don't know that Yeshua himself spoke those words, but I believe that all scripture is his word.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Roman's 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Isaiah 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.

Isaiah 56:3-5 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

I don't know that Yeshua himself spoke those words, but I believe that all scripture is his word.

Yes. There are no verses supposedly said by Jesus .
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Is the NT all about grace and love, whereas the tanach was full of wrath and judgment? Does the New Testament lay out new standards for us to live by, doing away with the need to follow the torah?

Nuclear bombs were not around 2,000 years ago when Jesus was alive.

New weapons require new instructions.

The United States has been mostly ruled by Christians. It has nukes.

"Thou shalt not kill" (Old testament commandment of God to the Jews) must be observed. Revelation says that if anyone attacks Iraq, the world will face God's wrath (including Revelation 15 (seven plagues, including COVID)).

President George W. Bush said that nukes were not off the table (that is, could be used). W. Bush also said that the UN (United Nations) was irrelevant, then he defunded it temporarily. Yet, when he realized that he could not get out of the predicament that he got into, he tried to put terrorist al Sodr in charge, and begged the UN to help him.

When Hillary Clinton found out that Russia hacked Podesta's emails (her campaign manager) and exposed her cheating scandal (getting debate questions ahead of time), she lashed out at Russia, claiming that she might nuke them.

In the nuclear age, we need calmer heads and rational thinkingl.

The New Testament is a new word of God to a new people under new circumstances.

No longer is it "eye for an eye" but it is "turn the other cheek" and "thou shalt not kill." True, those issues have been around for a long time, but ostensibly Christians should adhere to the standards set by Christ.
 

Batya

Always Forward
Nuclear bombs were not around 2,000 years ago when Jesus was alive.

New weapons require new instructions.

The United States has been mostly ruled by Christians. It has nukes.

"Thou shalt not kill" (Old testament commandment of God to the Jews) must be observed. Revelation says that if anyone attacks Iraq, the world will face God's wrath (including Revelation 15 (seven plagues, including COVID)).

President George W. Bush said that nukes were not off the table (that is, could be used). W. Bush also said that the UN (United Nations) was irrelevant, then he defunded it temporarily. Yet, when he realized that he could not get out of the predicament that he got into, he tried to put terrorist al Sodr in charge, and begged the UN to help him.

When Hillary Clinton found out that Russia hacked Podesta's emails (her campaign manager) and exposed her cheating scandal (getting debate questions ahead of time), she lashed out at Russia, claiming that she might nuke them.

In the nuclear age, we need calmer heads and rational thinkingl.

The New Testament is a new word of God to a new people under new circumstances.

No longer is it "eye for an eye" but it is "turn the other cheek" and "thou shalt not kill." True, those issues have been around for a long time, but ostensibly Christians should adhere to the standards set by Christ.
I don't believe the US is a Christian nation, if it ever was, I don't know. I believe it is a nation that will be judged as God sees fit.
In the Torah, YHWH said not to murder, but that did not mean don't go to war, as evidenced by the fact that they did so many times at his instruction. I personally believe that at this time we should not be getting engaged in wars and defending the systems of the world (as in, I myself would not join the military), if my country goes to war that is up to them, and I believe that YHWH's purpose will be done in that, as he says there will be a lot of war near the end of the age. When the Messiah returns, though, he will lead his people against their enemies, so there will again be war, albeit divinely led and sanctioned.
What about it makes it a new word of God though? Loving your enemy is a tanach precept, not originating in the NT. I am not saying there are no differences, but I want to know just what people think those are. So often I hear that the teachings of Yeshua were so very different than what is in the tanach, but really, most of what he said is already in the tanach.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Thou shalt not kill
This is a common mistranslation. The Hebrew is לא תרצח which means Thou shalt not murder, as opposed to לא תהרוג, Thou shalt not kill, which isn't written anywhere (except badly translated English bibles and those that copy from them...).
 

Batya

Always Forward
Didn't Jesus say to people that they have been forgiven, and to go and sin no more? Are you saying he didn't actually expect they could? Like saying, go and levitate yourself, or something he knew they could not do? Why would he say that, if he didn't think they could

Yes, but at this point we are not sinless, even Paul talked about how he did those things which he did not want to do. Our sin will be completely taken away when the Messiah returns, when we are given an incorruptible body. However all the particulars of that work out, at some point we will no longer sin.

I think you have it upside down. Plus, you are missing the surrounding verses with these citations which will affirm what I am saying. We don't sin because we break the rules. Breaking the rules is the result of sin, or falling short of the mark to begin with. If you were not out of balance to begin with, you would not fall over. It's not the falling over that makes you unbalanced, or out of true.
Where do you find that breaking the rules is different than sinning? What is falling short of the mark in your opinion? To what point can you break these rules before it becomes sin?

With that in mind, we need to add back in Ro. 3:20 a, to preface b.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

In other words, the law is what you measure your actions against your standing or falling. It's not by performing it, you are made righteous. Because even if you follow the letter of the law, yet on the inside you are unbalanced, out of true, even your "good works" are stained by sin. They are as "filthy rags", because they are not coming from a place of love and truth. They are not coming from God as the source.
I never said I thought we justified ourselves by the works of the law. I believe salvation is a free gift, but we are still called to walk in righteousness; not to earn right standing with God, but to do those things which please him. I understand that it is through Yeshua that our heart is cleansed, but just because one keeps the Torah doesn't mean they are trying to earn salvation. If Yeshua came to save us from sin, why would we continue walking in sin? Did the definition of sin change?

Therefore, the next verses conclude,

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
In other words, it is the transformation of your person, becoming filled with Divine Love, that your actions do not sin. "Love works no ill," Romans 13:10. Meaning, if you love, you will not be capable of sin. "Go and sin no more," is basically say, "walk in love, and you will sin no more".
So are you saying you believe that if you have love you won't sin? How does that fit with Yeshua turning people away from the kingdom of heaven because they were "workers of iniquity" i.e. anomia=lawlessness? In the same breath, Paul goes on to say this:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Now 1 John 3:4, you cited. Let's read that in context:

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
As you can see, what I have said is very much biblically supported. "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning". Why? Because Christ in them is Divine Love. and "love works no ill". That's why.
Right, if we are in him we are not to walk in sin. He came to redeem us from our sins, therefore because of his righteousness in us, we should turn away from said sins. Again though, what is sin? If we have his righteousness in us, does that make it right for us to do those things God has laid out as sin?

Again, you are coming at this backwards, or upside down. That greatest commandment affirms exactly what I am saying about God within as the source of all external actions, as opposed to us in our egos trying to be "good", with human effort, trying to conform to rules viewed as external to us.

The first commandment is to love God with your entire being. The reason for this is because it makes us filled with God's Love. Without that Love, we are not capable of seeing the other through the eyes of that Love. The second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is dependent upon that. If we are self absorbed, we are not able to love another as an extension of ourselves. All our actions are dependent upon connection with that Source of Divine Love, which is God.
And how do you love God? It's not just a feeling.

You don't connect to that by obeying a bunch of rules, but your heart is full of jeouslies, desires, resentments, angers, etc. You can follow those to a T, yet still have the heart impure. If you want to truly love your neighbor as yourself, you have to get the ego out of the way trying to gain for itself. And that is why the first commandment is to love God, not with your works, but with your mind, your heart, your intention, and everything in full surrender.

Nothing that comes from that, originates in the ego. It comes by setting the ego aside as the primary focus, even when it sneakily hides behind supposedly righteous works. And when that happens, there is no need to follow the rule book or the law to "obey God's will". You live it instead. You are it. That is the point of all of it, and what I believe that Jesus intended to teach, but few could understand, being conditioned to think it's something you do, rather than are.

When it says the law is written on the tablets of the heart, this is what that means. It originates from within you, not from a book of laws external to you which you make an effort to follow. That is what "saved" really means. You are free from the source of sin, or lawlessness.
Following the Torah is not just about a bunch of rules, it is very much about a relationship with God. True, keeping the Torah in and of itself does not cleanse your heart, it never has, it does no good to just walk through the actions. That's why throughout the tanach YHWH says he does not delight in their outward appearance of righteousness when their heart is not true to him (for example, Isaiah 1:10-17).
Keeping the Torah has nothing to do with ego (or shouldn't), it is not about doing it for yourself to make yourself better. It is simply doing what he asks us to do, things that he says are life and blessing. If you think that righteousness comes from within, will that righteousness look different from what he says is righteous in his word? "Being" righteous instead of doing righteously? If you "are" righteous, you would be walking in righteousness, and YHWH tells us what righteousness is.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I agree, I just wonder why most Christians insist we don't have to keep the torah anymore. If Yeshua had done away with the commandments he would not qualify as the Messiah.

It is sad. I think the reason originally comes from the Paul’s teachings that have been misunderstood, or intentionally twisted. By what the New Testament says, people should not obey the law so that they would gain reward from it. People should obey it, because they understand it is good and they love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

It seems to be difficult for many to see that what Paul for example says is much about what is the motive for doing right. It is not very righteous, if person does right only to avoid punishment, or to get reward from God. I think that is why Jesus said:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

I have understood that the Pharisees were outwardly good, they practiced right things to look good for other people, not because they thought it is good and right and loved God.

So, the law is good and it would be good if person understands it is good, because then he wants to freely obey it. But it is not good, if one obeys it only because he tries to earn salvation or eternal life by doing right. If doing right depends only on what reward person gets from it, it is not good.
 

Batya

Always Forward
It is sad. I think the reason originally comes from the Paul’s teachings that have been misunderstood, or intentionally twisted. By what the New Testament says, people should not obey the law so that they would gain reward from it. People should obey it, because they understand it is good and they love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

It seems to be difficult for many to see that what Paul for example says is much about what is the motive for doing right. It is not very righteous, if person does right only to avoid punishment, or to get reward from God. I think that is why Jesus said:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

I have understood that the Pharisees were outwardly good, they practiced right things to look good for other people, not because they thought it is good and right and loved God.

So, the law is good and it would be good if person understands it is good, because then he wants to freely obey it. But it is not good, if one obeys it only because he tries to earn salvation or eternal life by doing right. If doing right depends only on what reward person gets from it, it is not good.
Thank you, yes, I agree. You summed that up very nicely! :)
 
Did Yeshua come as a radical revolutionary to do away with an old, outdated system? Is the NT all about grace and love, whereas the tanach was full of wrath and judgment? Does the New Testament lay out new standards for us to live by, doing away with the need to follow the torah?
These are all things I've heard, and I want to know what y'all think about these and other things, and why. Keep in mind that YHWH does not change.

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Having actually read the Old Testament and New Testament several times and having spent decades studying them both, I think I can say with some authority(?) that I see no difference between the God of the Old Testament (Jesus Christ) and the God of the New Testament (Jesus Christ).
I see a lot of difference in what God was doing based on the people He was dealing with and the goals He had at the time, but this does not mean He changed.
The titles of these books could be different though. The Old Testament could be called "A group of books based on this other covenant" and the New Testament could called "This other group of books based on yet another covenant."
In that sense one can see that the New Testament is a Newer Covenant than the Older Covenant that the old testament is based on.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Did Yeshua come as a radical revolutionary to do away with an old, outdated system? Is the NT all about grace and love, whereas the tanach was full of wrath and judgment? Does the New Testament lay out new standards for us to live by, doing away with the need to follow the torah?
These are all things I've heard, and I want to know what y'all think about these and other things, and why. Keep in mind that YHWH does not change.

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Bible scholars don’t refer to “Old Testament” and “New Testament.” Its a little misleading, and inaccurate. Better terminology is “Hebrew Texts” and “Greek Texts.” If one reads the Tanach with a critical eye, one finds a God who is slow to anger, merciful, and who does not punish as we deserve. We find that most of the 613 Laws deal with compassionate treatment of strangers, aliens, and outsiders. Jesus’ compassion is really an extension of that mercy.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't believe that is biblically substantiated. We have not yet been made sinless, therefore we still need to go by the biblical standard as our measure of what is right and good. We know what sin is by the law (Romans 3:20 b), and sin is transgression of the Torah (1John 3:4).
Also, the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength- how do we know how to love him? From what I see, it is by walking in his ways. If you love me, keep my commandments. We can't just decide to love him our own way, he is a holy God, and he has laid out the way in which we should walk.
Our own being and actions do not fulfill the Torah unless we do as he says.
I disagree. Waaay too legalistic for Christian thought.
 
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