Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

iris89 · Dec 27, 2004

Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

Some doubt the deity of Christ, but one of the greatest Bible scholars of all times, the great German Bible scholar and translator, Dr. J. J. Griesbach; Nor the Bible scholar and translator James Moffat, translator of "The New Testament: A New Translation," who stated in his translation at John 1:1, "... the Logos was divine"; Nor the Bible scholar and translator E. J. Goodspeed translator of ": An American Translation," who stated in his translation at John 1:1, "... and the Word was divine".

The point of Christ's divinity was made very pointedly by the great scholars and translators of the British Empire in their translation, "The New English Bible, (NEB)" at John 1:1 that reads, "When all things began, the Word already was, The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.".

Now let's reason together, we all know that a son is a lot like the father from our own experience. So if Jesus (Yeshua) is the Son of God as testified to in over 40 scriptures in the Bible, we would expect that he would be a lot like his Father (YHWH). What would this mean, simply that he would be a deity like his Father (YHWH) and that he would be divine like his Father (YHWH). Why do some take this statement of what should be obvious to all with an explanation of surprise? Because they wrongly believe he and his father are one and the same; an impossibility as should be obvious to all.

Now let's look at what the meaning of divinity is in several dictionaries:

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
divine (GOD-LIKE) adjective
connected with a god, or like a god:
The Ayatollah described the earthquake in Iran as a divine test.
Some fans seem to regard footballers as divine beings.
England have fallen so far behind in the championship that their only hope of victory is divine intervention (= help from God).
Just because you've been promoted that doesn't give you a divine right (= one like that of a god) to tell us all what to do.

Oxford Dictionary
divine = /d"van/ adjective (-r, -st) 1 of, from, or like God or a god; sacred. 2 colloquial excellent. verb (-ning) 1 discover by intuition or guessing. 2 foresee. 3 practise divination. noun theologian. divining-rod dowser's forked twig. divinely adverb.

Wordsmyth Dictionary
a religious scholar or clergyman. Similar Words exegete , minister , cleric , clergyman , bishop , theologian , prelate , priest , religious
Definition 2. (cap.) God (usu. prec. by the). Synonyms Godhead {godhead (2)} , Divinity {divinity (2)} , Omnipotent {omnipotent} , Omniscient {omniscient} , God {god (2)} , Deity {deity (4)} Similar Words celestial
Definition 3. (sometimes cap.) the spiritual or godlike, as opposed to the earthly or worldly. Similar Words divinity

It is like Jesus (Yeshua) said at Matthew 23:24, but let's look at the context, Matthew 23:13-33, " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater d**nation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the d**nation of hell?" ((Authorized King James Bible; AV)

Let's be inline with Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things that become sound doctrine:" (Douay Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB), and not in line with 2 Corinthians 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them."(DRCB) who do NOT recognize Jesus (Yeshua) as a separate divine being from his Father (YHWH) who is his Father's (YHWH's) master worker and is an obedient Son and follows his Father's (YHWH's) directions.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

robtex · Dec 27, 2004

See a lot of Biblical specualation on Christ. Was wondering why there is a lack of collaborating sources that are primary (meaning they dont use the bible as a source). Have you ever found any and if so what are they?

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 27, 2004

iris89 said:
Why Do Some Doubt The Deity of Christ?

Because the history of Jesus is unevidenced, the deity of Jesus is certainly unevidenced, and the New Testament is rather bad story telling.

HelpMe · Dec 27, 2004

because the definition is often skewed.

robtex · Dec 28, 2004

iris89 i can a return question based on yours. Why is it that millions of Christians over thousands of years doing millions and maybe billions of hours of research have failed to turn up any proof to his existance. Nothing nada? Doens't that strike you as odd? And before you pull the belief tatic realize that with that many resources and manpower if he walked the earth something would have turned up by now espcially some fella walking around doing miracles.

HelpMe · Dec 28, 2004

there is evidence.

you(and others), as a skeptic understandably simply choose to deny our sources.

jewscout · Dec 28, 2004

For starters i've never put much stock in the Gospels anyways. So if i don't believe in what is written there why should i accept the divinity of a dead first century palestinian jew?

robtex · Dec 28, 2004

HelpMe said:
there is evidence.

you(and others), as a skeptic understandably simply choose to deny our sources.

could you please list those sources outside the bible that are primary in nature?

HelpMe · Dec 28, 2004

1-there is no reason the sources should have to be outside of the bible.(but there is)
2-present more evidence for the existence of anyone who lived more than 500 years ago.and if in your mind you are able to do so, compare that person to the poor 'jew' yeshua was.
3-check the "historacrisy(sp) of christ thread", i believe pah started it.

iris89 · Dec 28, 2004

Hi Robetex and Everyone:

You want to know about Jesus (Yeshua) and his existance, go to my article:

Documentary on our Savior Jesus (Yeshua);

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabnafrm10.showMessage?topicID=57.topic

And some other sources/resources are as follows:

The Day I Was Crucified...as told by Jesus the Christ by Gene Edwards [religion unknown]

Ancient historians books and writing, none of whom were Christian:
The Roman author Suetonius (around A.D. 120) compiled biographies of the first twelve Roman emperors [Julius Caesar (died B.C.44) through Domitian (died A.D. 96)]. Writing about the emperor Claudius (A.D. 41-54) he stated "Because the Jews at Rome cause continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, (Chrestus, a common slave-name, was popular misspelling of the name of Christ) he expelled them from the city" (Claudius 25:4) A Biblical account of this event is recorded by the physician Luke, "He found a certain Jew named Aquila, a man of Pontus by race, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome" (Acts 18:2).
Tactius in his Romans Annals (written between 115 and 117 A.D.) spoke of the Christians. "They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the Procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius" (Tactius, Annals, XV, 44)
Pliny the younger, imperial legate of the Roman province of Bithynia located in N.W. Asia Minor, wrote to the Emperor Trajan with a description of the Christian's worship. "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honor it. After this, it was their custom to separate, and them meet again to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind" (From Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, by F. F. Bruce, Eerdman Publishers).
About 52 A.D., Thallus, a freedman of Tiberius, wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his day. His history disappeared but was known by Julius Africanus. Julius Africanus describes the earthquake and the preternatural darkness which accompanied the crucifixion of Christ, and says that Thallus in Book three explained the darkness as an eclipse of the sun. (He also points out that this explanation was unacceptable becuase Jesus was crucified at full moon when no eclipse of the sun is possible) (Jesus and Chrisitan Origins Outside the New Testament, F. F. Bruce).
Josephus, the Jewish historian, speak of Jesus being condemned to the cross by Pilate and that "the tribe of Christians, so name from him, are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3, 3). Josephus further speaks of James, the brother of Jesus who is called the Christ. (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:9, 1).
Proving the historic Jesus, By Harry V. Martin, Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995 [religion unknown]

Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament by William F. Albright

Retrospect and Prospect in New Testament Archaeology

Talmud: Talmudic writings of most value concerning the historical Jesus are those compiled between 70 A.D. and 200 A.D.. The most significant test is Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of Passover Yeshua was hanged (Babylonian Talmud). Lucian: Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer whose works contain sarcastic critiques of Christianity: The Christians, you know, worship a man to this daythe distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account (Death of Pelegrine, 11-13).

The early Jewish Rabbis of the first century did not deny that Jesus performed miracles, but they tried to attribute them to acts of sorcery.

A passage taken from the Babylonia Sanhedrin written sometime between 95-110 A.D. states:

"During the time of Passover they executed Yeshu (of Nazareth). An announcement was made for forty days before this saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) will be stoned in that he has practiced sorcery and deceived and led Israel astray. Let everyone who knows contrary, come and plead for his defense. But they found nothing in his defense and crucified him . . ."

These false allegations by the Jewish leaders trying to say that Jesus performed these miracles by practicing sorcery and magic arts can also be found in the Bible. Luke 11:14-20 states:

"And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute spoke; and the multitudes marveled. But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."

Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven. But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub. "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. "But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

An early mention of the miracles of Christ comes from Julian the Apostate (Roman Emperor from 361-363 A.D.) who was an enemy of Christianity, he wrote:

"Jesus . . . has now been honored for about three hundred years; having done nothing throughout his lifetime that was worthy of fame, unless anyone thinks it a very great work to heal the lame and the blind and to cast out demons in the towns of Bethsaida and Bethany."

This statement shows that it was commonly accepted that Jesus performed miracles in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany as recorded in the bible.

Jewish rabbinical writings found in the Talmud also give witness to the fact that Jesus had the power to heal. One such writing from around 100 A.D. involves the case of Rabbi Eleazar ben Dama who a was bitten by a poisonous snake:

'Jacob of Kephar Sama arrived to heal him in the name of Jesus [Yeshua]. But Rabbi Ishmael did not permit it. He said:"Ben Dama, you must not do so!"

(Ben Dama) replied: "I will bring you proof (from the scriptures) that he may heal me!" But he died before he was able to produce the proof.' --Tosefta, Hullin 2.22-23

"The Life and Works of Flavius Josephus' as translated by William Whiston, A.M., published by the John C. Winston Company confirms this fact on page 534 and also mentions his brother, James, on page 598.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

jewscout · Dec 28, 2004

I don't know about ya'll but where i come from when someone dies and comes back to life they aren't the son of G-d, they're a zombie.....
and do you know what we do to zombies? That's right kids a bullet to the head, flamethrower, or grenade/explosive devise.
That's the only way to handle the living dead by golly!

just call on ZART:Zombie Armed Response Team

iris89 · Dec 28, 2004

Hi Everyone

Here is something else I ran across while looking for something else.

There are still many people today who make the claim that Jesus never existed, that He was only a mythical character.

However, those who make such an accusation are certainly not historians, but are surprisingly ignorant of the facts.

The New Testament contains twenty-seven separate documents which were written in the first century A.D. These writings contain the story of the life of Jesus and the beginnings of the Christian church from about 4 B.C. until the decade of the A.D. nineties.

The facts were recorded by eyewitnesses, who gave firsthand testimony to what they had seen and hear. "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Live" (1 John 1:1, NASB).

Moreover, the existence of Jesus is recorded by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who was born in A.D. 37, "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.

"He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those who loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities, XVIII, III).

Although this passage has been contested because of the reference to Jesus being the Christ and rising from the dead, the fact of His existence is not in question.

Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 112), a Roman historian, writing about the reign of Nero, refers to Jesus Christ and the existence of Christians in Rome (Annals, XV, 44), Tacitus, elsewhere in his Histories, refers to Christianity when alluding to the burning of the temple of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This has been preserved by Sulpicius Severus (Chronicles 30:6).

There are other references to Jesus or His followers, such as the Roman historian, Seutonius (A.D. 120) in Life of Claudius, 25.4, and Lives of the Caesars, 26.2, and Pliny the younger (A.D. 112) in his Epistles, X. 96.

This testimony, both Christian and non-Christian, is more than sufficient to lay to rest any idea that Jesus, in fact, never existed. In light of the evidence, it is absurd to hold such a view. We know more about the life of Jesus than just about any other figure in the ancient world. His birth, life, and death are revealed in much more detail than most ancient figures whose existence is taken for granted by historians.

After examining the evidence about the life of Christ from contemporary sources apart from the New Testament, Roderic Dunkerley concluded, "In none of these various testimonies to the fact of Christ is there any slightest hint or idea that he was not a real historical person.

"Indeed it has been argued--and I think very rightly--that myth theories of the beginnings of Christianity are modern speculative hypotheses motivated by unreasoning prejudice and dislike. 'It would never enter anyone's head,' says Merezhovsky, 'to ask whether Jesus had lived, unless before asking the question the mind had been darkened by the wish that he had not lived'" (Roderic Dunkerley, Beyond the Gospels, pp. 29, 30).

From the book, "Answers to Tough Questions," by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart

And, here is some information from Jewish and other sources:

Josephus on John the Baptist

The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 5, Section 2

Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise), thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him.

Josephus on Jesus Christ

The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3"

The Babylonian Talmud on Jesus

Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"

The Babylonian Talmud on Jesus

Sanhedrin 107b (200-500 C.E.)

"One day he (Rabbi Joshua) was reciting the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) when Jesus came before him. He intended to receive him and made a sign to him. He (Jesus) thinking that it was to repel him, went, put up a brick and worshiped it.....And a Master has said, 'Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led Israel astray.'"

ROMAN SOURCES

Pliny the Younger on Christians

Letter to Trajan 10.96 - (c.111-117 C.E.)

"I have never been present at an examination of Christians. Consequently, I do not know the nature of the extent of the punishments usually meted out to them, nor the grounds for starting an investigation and how far it should be pressed....I have asked them if they are Christians, and if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for execution; for, whatever the nature of their admission, I am convinced that their stubbornness and unshakeable obstinacy ought not to go unpunished.....they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."

Suetonius on Christians

Vita Nero (De Vita Caesarum - Nero)16.11-13 (c.110 C.E.)

"Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."

Tacitus on Jesus and Christianity

The Roman Annals 15.44 (c.115-117 C.E.)

"But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."

Barnabas

The Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter 15

"This is why we also observe the eighth day with rejoicing, on which Jesus also rose from the dead, and having shown himself ascended to heaven."

The Didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) (c. 65-69 A.D.)

The Didache 14:1

"And on the Lord's Day, after you have come together, break bread and offer the Eucharist, having first confessed your offences, so that your sacrifice may be pure."

The Dead Sea Scrolls

(c. 50-100 C.E.)

RESOURCES

Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash, H.L. Strack and G. Stemberger

Jesus Under Fire, J.P. Moreland, Michael Wilkins and Edwin M. Yamauchi

The Letters, Pliny the Younger

Nero, the End of a Dynasty, M.T. Griffin

The Roman Annals, Tacitus

The Works of Josephus, Flavius Josephus

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

huajiro · Dec 28, 2004

People doubt Christ because he was a "man". I cannot with any certainty say that anyone existed who I have never met.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 28, 2004

It is a very tiresome and worthless laundry list. If and when you wish to debate them one by one, feel free to start an appropriate thread. It will be fun to see how very little you know about the subject ...

iris89 · Dec 28, 2004

Hi Everyone

Here is more sources of data proving the existence of Jesus (Yeshua) for the unreasonable doubter.

Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash, H.L. Strack and G. Stemberger

Jesus Under Fire, J.P. Moreland, Michael Wilkins and Edwin M. Yamauchi

And here are links that will provide you to 100s of reference sources between the two of them:

The first is a Catholic source, the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Early Historical Documents on Jesus:

http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3dCatholic%2bencyclopedia%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=Catholic+encyclopedia&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d01E1A288B4C608B04%26sid%3d1D945899D753A1D14%26qid%3dA1F014C21A068E4E993180361B6B5FB3%26io%3d1%26sv%3dz6f5372c5%26o%3d0%26ask%3dCatholic%2bencyclopedia%26uip%3dd894f45b%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dNEW%2bADVENT%253a%2bHome%26ac%3d3%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d102%26te_id%3d%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.newadvent.org%2f&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.newadvent.org%2f&qte=0&o=0&abs=Besides+hosting+the+Summa+Theologica+and+the+1913+Catholic+Encyclopedia%2c+this+site+offers+a+Catholic+FAQ%2c+selected+writings+by+the+Fathers+of+the...&tit=NEW+ADVENT%3a+Home&bin=566d6d18ea561a09639eca56636f523f%26s%3d2317893728&cat=wp&purl=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fi%2fb.html%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d01E1A288B4C608B04%26sid%3d1D945899D753A1D14%26qid%3dA1F014C21A068E4E993180361B6B5FB3%26io%3d%26sv%3dz6f5372c5%26o%3d0%26ask%3dCatholic%2bencyclopedia%26uip%3dd894f45b%26en%3dbm%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3d%26ac%3d24%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fmyjeeves.ask.com%2faction%2fsnip&Complete=1

The second is a Jewish source, the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Documents on Jesus:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/search_results.jsp?searchType=1&pageNum=1&search=documents+on+jesus&searchOpt=0&x=6&y=15

And, another link:

When God's (YHWH's) Kingdom Starts Rulling:
examining-doctrines.com/f...wtopic=204

And on the Quran (Koran) on Jesus:

Ayah 7

7. íÎÑÌ ãä Èíä ÇáÕáÈ æÇáÊÑÇÆÈ
Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi

íÎÑÌ = "Yakhruju"

"Yakhruju" definition:

He comes out. Appears, emerges, brings out. It comes from the root "kharaja", which means to go out, go forth, come forth, deport, attack, rebel against.

References:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 150

The Koran
Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
Mohamed Ahmed
p. 419

Èíä = "bayni"

"bayni" definition:

Between; Before. It comes from the root "bana", which means to be distinct and separate, far away, remote from, divorced, clear, obvious, explain.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 70-71

ÕáÈ = "ssulbi"

"ssulbi" definition:

Backbone; Loins; Spine. It comes from the root "salaba/saliba", which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

The Koran
Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
Mohamed Ahmed
p. 71

Reviewing "al" again

Çá= "al"

"al" definition:

The definite article. In Arabic it is used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to donate comprehensiveness, that is to say all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.

It is also used to indicate something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the writer or reader.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 25

ÇáÕáÈ = "al" + "ssulbi" = "alssulbi" = backbone/loins/spine

ÊÑÇÆÈ = "ttara-ibi"

"ttara-ibi" definition:

Plural noun. Breast bone; Upper part of girls chest. The rib bones. It comes from the root "tariba", which means to have much earth, be full of earth, have dust in his hands, be destitute.

References:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 74

The Koran
Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
Mohamed Ahmed
p. 55

æÇáÊÑÇÆÈ = "wa" + "al" + "ttara-ibi" = "waalttara-ibi" = and the breast bone/rib bones

Thus, we have this Literal rendering of 86:7

He comes out/emerges/appears from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones.

Lets examine all of the ayahs in the Koran that mention crucifixion:

And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly. (4:157)

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

æãÇÕáÈæå = "wama salaboohu"

"wama salaboohu" definition:

They did not cause death by crucification. It comes from the root "salaba/saliba", which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

But (the) reward (of) those who embattle/fight Allah and His messenger, and they strive/endeavor in the earth/Planet Earth corruption/disorder, that they be killed or they be crucified, or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposites, or they be expelled/exiled from the land, that (is) for them shame/scandal/disgrace in the present world, and for them in the end (other life is) a great torture. (5:33)

Innama jazao allatheena yuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna fee al-ardi fasadan an yuqattaloo aw yusallaboo aw tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin aw yunfaw mina al-ardi thalika lahum khizyun fee alddunya walahum fee al-akhirati AAathabun AAatheemun

íÕáÈæÇ = "yusallaboo"

"yusallaboo" definition:

They will crucify till death. It comes from the root "salaba/saliba", which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

"You my two companions/friends (of) the prison/jail, but, one of you so he gives drink an intoxicant (to) his lord, and but the other, so he be crucified/placed on a cross , so the birds eat from his head, the matter/affair which in it you ask for an opinion/clarification was passed judgment/ordered." (12:41)

Ya sahibayi alssijni amma ahadukuma fayasqee rabbahu khamran waamma al-akharu fayuslabu fata/kulu alttayru min ra/sihi qudiya al-amru allathee feehi tastaftiyani

ÝíÕáÈ = "fayuslabu"

"fayuslabu" definition:

Will be crucified till death. It comes from the root "salaba/saliba", which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

"I will cut off/amputate your hands and your feet from opposites, then I will crucify you/place you on crosses all/all together." (7:124)

LaoqatiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin thumma laosallibannakum ajmaAAeena

He said: "You believed to him before that I permit for you, that he truly (is) your biggest/greatest who taught/instructed you the magic/sorcery, so I will cut off/sever your hands and your feet from opposites (sides), and I will crucify you in the palm trees' trunks/stems, and you will know which of us (is) stronger (in) torture and more lasting." (20:71)

Qala amantum lahu qabla an athana lakum innahu lakabeerukumu allathee AAallamakumu alssihra falaoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin walaosallibannakum fee juthooAAi alnnakhli walataAAlamunna ayyuna ashaddu AAathaban waabqa

He said: "You believed to him before that I permit/allow for you, that he truly is your greatest/teacher and leader who taught/instructed you the magic/sorcery, so you will/shall know I will cut off/sever your hands and your feet from opposites (sides), and I will crucify you/place you on crosses all/all together." (26:49)

Qala amantum lahu qabla an athana lakum innahu lakabeerukumu allathee AAallamakumu alssihra falasawfa taAAlamoona laoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin walaosallibannakum ajmaAAeena

æáÇÕáÈäßã = "walaosallibannakum"

"walaosallibannakum" definition:

I will surely crucify till death. It comes from the root "salaba/saliba", which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

Key point from all of the crucifixion ayahs:

1) Every time crucifixion is mentioned in the Koran, the word used to describe the event can be traced back to the same root words "salaba/saliba" as utilized in ayah 7

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 28, 2004

Deut. 32.8 said:
It is a very tiresome and worthless laundry list. If and when you wish to debate them one by one, feel free to start an appropriate thread. It will be fun to see how very little you know about the subject ...

Apparently, Iris89 you are better at regurgitating slop than arguing positions. That's OK; we all have our strengths and weaknesses. But this is a 'debate' forum. My offer stands.

iris89 · Dec 28, 2004

Hi Deut. 32.8

Your statement,

Apparently, Iris89 you are better at regurgitating slop than arguing positions. That's OK; we all have our strengths and weaknesses. But this is a 'debate' forum. My offer stands.

Is entirely wrong, I am not regurgitating slop, but bring the facts to light with respect my leader and savior Jesus (Yeshua). I offer reality, not nonsense.

Now here is more showing that the Quran (Koran) clearly speaks of Jesus' (Yeshua's) crucifiction:

They will crucify till death. It comes from the root salaba/saliba, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

"You my two companions/friends (of) the prison/jail, but, one of you so he gives drink an intoxicant (to) his lord, and but the other, so he be crucified/placed on a cross , so the birds eat from his head, the matter/affair which in it you ask for an opinion/clarification was passed judgment/ordered." (12:41)

Ya sahibayi alssijni amma ahadukuma fayasqee rabbahu khamran waamma al-akharu fayuslabu fata/kulu alttayru min ra/sihi qudiya al-amru allathee feehi tastaftiyani

ÝíÕáÈ = fayuslabu

fayuslabu definition:

Will be crucified till death. It comes from the root salaba/saliba, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

"I will cut off/amputate your hands and your feet from opposites, then I will crucify you/place you on crosses all/all together." (7:124)

LaoqatiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin thumma laosallibannakum ajmaAAeena

He said: "You believed to him before that I permit for you, that he truly (is) your biggest/greatest who taught/instructed you the magic/sorcery, so I will cut off/sever your hands and your feet from opposites (sides), and I will crucify you in the palm trees' trunks/stems, and you will know which of us (is) stronger (in) torture and more lasting." (20:71)

Qala amantum lahu qabla an athana lakum innahu lakabeerukumu allathee AAallamakumu alssihra falaoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin walaosallibannakum fee juthooAAi alnnakhli walataAAlamunna ayyuna ashaddu AAathaban waabqa

He said: "You believed to him before that I permit/allow for you, that he truly is your greatest/teacher and leader who taught/instructed you the magic/sorcery, so you will/shall know I will cut off/sever your hands and your feet from opposites (sides), and I will crucify you/place you on crosses all/all together." (26:49)

Qala amantum lahu qabla an athana lakum innahu lakabeerukumu allathee AAallamakumu alssihra falasawfa taAAlamoona laoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin walaosallibannakum ajmaAAeena

æáÇÕáÈäßã = walaosallibannakum

walaosallibannakum definition:

I will surely crucify till death. It comes from the root salaba/saliba, which means to put to death by crucifixion, extract marrow from bones.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 318

Key point from all of the crucifixion ayahs:

1) Every time crucifixion is mentioned in the Koran, the word used to describe the event can be traced back to the same root words salaba/saliba as utilized in ayah 7

Summary:

1) Ayah 7 tells us from where mankind was created
2) It describes the source of the water ma-in that is in motion
3) This source of the water comes from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones
4) alssulbi which is rendered backbone/loins/spine, comes from the root salaba/saliba, which means TO PUT TO DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION,
5) Furthermore, investigating all the Koranic passages dealing with the crucifixion, trace their origins back to the roots salaba/saliba
6) The definite article al in addition to signifying all aspects of a subject, can also be used to denote something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the reader or writer
7) This water is described as coming from the human anatomy
8 ) This water, from which mankind is created, comes from alttariqi
9) alttariqi has been given human attributes

Integrated Summary of the Sura title & ayahs 1-7:

1) The Sura title, alttariqi unites the following three aspects: One who comes at night; One who knocks; Morning Star
2) Ayah 1 begins by acknowledging and joining all al aspects of heaven ssama and all al aspects of ttariqi
3) This sets the stage for the rest of the Sura
4) Ayah 2 asks how you came to the knowledge of alttariqi
5) Thus, the premise has been established that alttariqi is already known
6) Ayah 3 describes alttariqi as a rising star/planet having piercing brightness
7) Ayah 4 further elaborates on alttariqi proclaiming that ALL souls gather on it as a guardian
8 ) This gathering of spirits involves a punishment
9) This punishment involves blood
10) Ayah 5 is directly linked to ayah 4 by the sequence marker fa on lyanthuri proclaiming that not only do ALL souls gather on it as a guardian, but mankind has an intimate connection with alttariqi
11) This intimate connection, from which mankind is created is sacred/consecrated
12) To consecrate is to devote irrevocably to the worship of God
13) Ayah 6 expands upon ayah 5 and tells us from what mankind was created
14) The water ma-in in ayah 6 is described as large in quantity by the root maha, which means to hold much water
15) The large volume of water is in motion; pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully
16) Comparing all of the Koranic fluid-based creation passages, clearly shows that Sura 86 is not referring to creation via an emitted drop nutfah, nor is it referring to creation via stagnant, insignificant water
17) The creation of man spoken of in this Sura is unique from everything else mentioned in the entire Koran
18 ) Both Blood and Water have been mentioned
19) Ayah 7 tells us from where mankind was created
20) It describes the source of the water ma-in that is in motion
21) This source of the water comes from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones
22) alssulbi which is rendered backbone/loins/spine, comes from the root salaba/saliba, which means TO PUT TO DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION,
23) Furthermore, investigating all the Koranic passages dealing with the crucifixion, trace their origins back to the roots salaba/saliba
24) The definite article al in addition to signifying all aspects of a subject, can also be used to denote something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the reader or writer
25) This water is described as coming from the human anatomy
26) This water, from which mankind is created, comes from alttariqi
27) alttariqi has been given human attributes

and:

Ayah 8

8. Çäå Úáí ÑÌÚå áÞÇÏÑ
Innahu AAala rajAAihi laqadirun

Çä = Inna

Inna definition:

If; When; Indeed; Not; Because. It is conditional.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 35

å = hu/ha

hu/ha definition:

A letter used as caution. It is used here as a postfix to the possessive pronoun as ha/hu meaning his.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 584

Çäå = Inna + hu/ha = Innahu = When His

Úáí = AAala

AAala definition:

Highest; Lofty; Illustrious; Eminent. It comes from the root ala, which means to be high, elevated, lofty, exalted, ascend, overcome, be proud, be upon, be over, go up, rise in rank or dignity, raise, take up, mount, overtop.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 385 - 386

ÑÌÚå = rajAAihi

rajAA" definition:

He turned back, He returned, He brought back. The word is masculine and singular. It comes from the root rajaa, which means to return, turn back, turn off, upon anyone, come back, repeat, answer, bring answer, be brought back.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 202 - 203

ÑÌÚå = rajAA" + ihi = rajAAihi = He returned

á = la

la definition:

Prefix: An affirmative intensifying particle, used as a corroborative.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 504 - 505

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

iris89 · Dec 28, 2004

Hi Everyone

I do not debate fact as that is a useless activity. I did NOT make my post on this forum, but the Biblical form; it was moved. I think debates as stupid; discussions of fact are quite a different matter as they can be upbuilding as Jesus (Yeshua) showed during his time on earth.

Facts and resources should be presented, not debated.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 28, 2004

iris89 said:
I did NOT make my post on this forum, but the Biblical form; it was moved.

Then I stand corrected. I will leave you and your baseless 'facts' to whoever wishes to dance to your tune.

linwood · Dec 28, 2004

I do not debate fact as that is a useless activity. I did NOT make my post on this forum, but the Biblical form; it was moved. I think debates as stupid; discussions of fact are quite a different matter as they can be upbuilding as Jesus (Yeshua) showed during his time on earth.

Of course you`re right why would one wish to substantiate their beliefs?
Especially if they cannot stand up to scrutiny.

Is it just me or do we seem to have an influx of Christians (JW`s mostly) here lately simply regurgitating crap from assorted religious sites without one word of their personal feelings or analysis of any topic?

It`s as if they just swallow all this stuff and the thought of questioning it is abhorent to them.

weird

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