When "Inerrant" Really Means "Full Of Errors"

paarsurrey · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
What is the source from the first century that says the 4 gospels originally had no names?

Doesn't Anonymous means nameless, unnamed, having no names or without names, please?

"The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. The Canon of Muratori, Clement of Alexandria, and St. Irenæus bear distinct witness to the existence of those headings in the latter part of the second century of our era. Indeed, the manner in which Clement (Stromata I.21), and St. Irenæus (Against Heresies III.11.7) employ them implies that, at that early date, our present titles to the Gospels had been in current use for some considerable time. Hence, it may be inferred that they were prefixed to the evangelical narratives as early as the first part of that same century. That, however, they do not go back to the first century of the Christian era, or at least that they are not original, is a position generally held at the present day. It is felt that since they are similar for the four Gospels, although the same Gospels were composed at some interval from each other, those titles were not framed, and consequently not prefixed to each individual narrative, before the collection of the four Gospels was actually made. Besides, as well pointed out by Prof. Bacon, "the historical books of the New Testament differ from its apocalyptic and epistolary literature, as those of the Old Testament differ from its prophecy, in being invariably anonymous, and for the same reason."
" It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel and Gospels

Right, please?

Regards

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Church teaching is that the Comforter and Spirit of truth are the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost, but that makes no sense, because the disciples did not do all of the following things that it says the Comforter and Spirit of truth will do in these verses: John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14

Teach you all things

Call to remembrance what Jesus said

Testify of Jesus

Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you

Guide you into all truth

Speak what He hears and shew you things to come

Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have this account that indicates the Holy Spirit was to be sent by God AGAIN in the last days.:

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ok, we just disagree.

rational experiences · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
When Jesus returned to the spirit world he could then pour out the spirit of truth upon all flesh as he said he would. That spirit came on Pentecost.

A man as a human is a man and a human.

If a human dies his bio body is proclaimed deceased. It is the deceased bio self in the conditions of once living being conscious. Known and identified.

Dead is dead.

If some human said Jesus never died then it is an argument written after all events were witnessed.

So either a man human teacher bodily died and then revived or the story is not about a real living man.

Then you ask did science falsely teach using man woman male female themes in actual science status?

Yes. Symbolic inference yet was discussing relativity

Natural daylight God O earth owned gas spirits owned sacrifice itself. Day light. Day spirit is gods earth gases sacrifice. Natural and holy.

The thesis said O large vacuum hole opened in space. The thesis a space hole.

Who invented the increased opening of space,?

Man science did. Introduced it to God mass by converting destroying mass. Opened into more space.

Laws of relativity natural laws taught first. Not converting cause.

Natural highest law mother vacuum. A great big huge body.

Don't change laws the warning.

Day light the sacrifice of spirit gas stopped. The spirit of God.

Then when day went dark everyone thought they were going to die. We live by light being present.

Relative advice daylight never went anywhere. A cause was witnessed.

It would have been very scary.

Yet no one actually died. Without light however the constant we would die.

Irradiation effect caused sacrificed all life. Real as effect. Body came down from its place sacrifice. A relativity teaching.

Then spirit of sacrifice was re ignited. So it was given back what was naturally always owned. Light gases spirit burning.

To theory that as a copy pertains that science agreed to remove daylight. When it is a constant.

Not sensible was it!

Thesis. To sacrifice life of a Hu man evil.

Sacrifice of God gas spirit natural. That God sacrifice supports life living. Relativity teaching.

To think of God spirit burning light not evil.

To think of man hu man life burning very evil.

No man is God was a relativity in science laws teaching. Holy sacrifice belonged to God heavens and not anywhere else.

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

paarsurrey said:
Doesn't Anonymous means nameless, unnamed, having no names or without names, please?

"The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. The Canon of Muratori, Clement of Alexandria, and St. Irenæus bear distinct witness to the existence of those headings in the latter part of the second century of our era. Indeed, the manner in which Clement (Stromata I.21), and St. Irenæus (Against Heresies III.11.7) employ them implies that, at that early date, our present titles to the Gospels had been in current use for some considerable time. Hence, it may be inferred that they were prefixed to the evangelical narratives as early as the first part of that same century. That, however, they do not go back to the first century of the Christian era, or at least that they are not original, is a position generally held at the present day. It is felt that since they are similar for the four Gospels, although the same Gospels were composed at some interval from each other, those titles were not framed, and consequently not prefixed to each individual narrative, before the collection of the four Gospels was actually made. Besides, as well pointed out by Prof. Bacon, "the historical books of the New Testament differ from its apocalyptic and epistolary literature, as those of the Old Testament differ from its prophecy, in being invariably anonymous, and for the same reason."
" It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel and Gospels

Right, please?

Regards

No, not right, not proven. We don’t have any of the original books, so we don’t know that they were unnamed. What you cut and pasted is speculation and conjecture today about books that no longer exist,

Wrangler · Feb 14, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Maybe, but the Bible's track record is pretty poor at this point with not a single prophecy fulfilled yet.

Why do you even post here?

rational experiences · Feb 14, 2021

paarsurrey said:
Doesn't Anonymous means nameless, unnamed, having no names or without names, please?

"The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. The Canon of Muratori, Clement of Alexandria, and St. Irenæus bear distinct witness to the existence of those headings in the latter part of the second century of our era. Indeed, the manner in which Clement (Stromata I.21), and St. Irenæus (Against Heresies III.11.7) employ them implies that, at that early date, our present titles to the Gospels had been in current use for some considerable time. Hence, it may be inferred that they were prefixed to the evangelical narratives as early as the first part of that same century. That, however, they do not go back to the first century of the Christian era, or at least that they are not original, is a position generally held at the present day. It is felt that since they are similar for the four Gospels, although the same Gospels were composed at some interval from each other, those titles were not framed, and consequently not prefixed to each individual narrative, before the collection of the four Gospels was actually made. Besides, as well pointed out by Prof. Bacon, "the historical books of the New Testament differ from its apocalyptic and epistolary literature, as those of the Old Testament differ from its prophecy, in being invariably anonymous, and for the same reason."
" It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel and Gospels

Right, please?

Regards

+ Cross owns multi symbolic statements. Asides non existence to add. You cannot add onto natural.

Four earth sea of son the season one status.

Claiming four seasons is never expressed but are known. Only two seasons exist at one time balanced

Life death autumn. Life return spring.

Balanced.

Relativity teaching about information to be informed without it owning names. Do not give God names the advice

Yet to argue you had to use words.

The day is one statement a constant. Just as gases alight burning.

That day body day then experiences change within its natural alight spirit body. Heavens

Changes. Lightning...not one of the four.
Thunder. Not one of the four.
Rain. Not one of the four.

Relative advice against irrational science theists. Who tried to theory one day. The constant of life support on God earth.

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

rational experiences said:
A man as a human is a man and a human.

If a human dies his bio body is proclaimed deceased. It is the deceased bio self in the conditions of once living being conscious. Known and identified.

Dead is dead.

If some human said Jesus never died then it is an argument written after all events were witnessed.

So either a man human teacher bodily died and then revived or the story is not about a real living man.

Then you ask did science falsely teach using man woman male female themes in actual science status?

Yes. Symbolic inference yet was discussing relativity

Natural daylight God O earth owned gas spirits owned sacrifice itself. Day light. Day spirit is gods earth gases sacrifice. Natural and holy.

The thesis said O large vacuum hole opened in space. The thesis a space hole.

Who invented the increased opening of space,?

Man science did. Introduced it to God mass by converting destroying mass. Opened into more space.

Laws of relativity natural laws taught first. Not converting cause.

Natural highest law mother vacuum. A great big huge body.

Don't change laws the warning.

Day light the sacrifice of spirit gas stopped. The spirit of God.

Then when day went dark everyone thought they were going to die. We live by light being present.

Relative advice daylight never went anywhere. A cause was witnessed.

It would have been very scary.

Yet no one actually died. Without light however the constant we would die.

Irradiation effect caused sacrificed all life. Real as effect. Body came down from its place sacrifice. A relativity teaching.

Then spirit of sacrifice was re ignited. So it was given back what was naturally always owned. Light gases spirit burning.

To theory that as a copy pertains that science agreed to remove daylight. When it is a constant.

Not sensible was it!

Thesis. To sacrifice life of a Hu man evil.

Sacrifice of God gas spirit natural. That God sacrifice supports life living. Relativity teaching.

To think of God spirit burning light not evil.

To think of man hu man life burning very evil.

No man is God was a relativity in science laws teaching. Holy sacrifice belonged to God heavens and not anywhere else.

I believe Jesus was/is a miraculous individual. A divine being in a human body. Only his body died, he lived and returned in a new form 3 days latter.

Trailblazer · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
You are simply cutting and pasting from wiki without providing the source of who was present in the first century to collaborate your claim.

What source do you have to corroborate your claims?

Trailblazer · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
Ok, we just disagree.

That's ok by me.

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

Trailblazer said:
What source do you have to corroborate your claims?

We have the Gospels.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 14, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I believe that all of the Bible prophecies that refer to (a) the Coming of the Messiah and (b) the return of Christ have been fulfilled by the Coming of Baha'u'llah and what He did on His Mission.

That was all proven in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears

The prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet refer to what will happen during the Messianic Age. Some of these prophecies have been fulfilled or are in the process of being fulfilled. However, not all of them have yet been fulfilled because an age is a period of time and the Messianic Age will last no less than 1000 years (from the year 1852 AD).

Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Age which began with Adam, and that is why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. We are living in the Age of Fulfillment, which is the Messianic Age. All the Bible prophecies will be fulfilled during this age.

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60

At least we have birth and death dates for Baha'u'llah so we know he was a real person. That's a hell of a lot more than we can say for Jesus, whoever he really was or if he even existed.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
Even his contemporaries rejected him. The gospels began with collections of his sayings and interviews with eye witnesses. The Apostle John dictated his gospel. Luke interviewed eye witnesses. Mark was a first hand account.

Unfortunately we have no historic proof for this. Christians must take it on faith. I'd love to see secular historic proof for any of this. I might even come back to Christianity if there was.

Trailblazer · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
We have the Gospels.

The Gospels cannot be used as evidence for the Gospels because they have not been corroborated by any sources outside the Gospels. I mean anyone can write a story, but that story is no proof that anything in that story ever took place. That applies in particular to the stories of the bodily resurrection.

rational experiences · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
I believe Jesus was/is a miraculous individual. A divine being in a human body. Only his body died, he lived and returned in a new form 3 days latter.

All humans qualify to be divine beings. Via use parent human memory.

Human memory quotes recorded eternal spirit. Eternal spirit from eternal itself unconditional loving being. Eternal spirit converted inside it's spirit form after it was forced to move into returned mass. Heavens.

it's body became two human parents.

All bio life came out of eternal body and converted by water oxygen mass.

Why we live in it.
Why it nearly became our whole form.

We exist not fully converting like God history by heated radiation effect the teaching.

If you believe in divine. Parents own that status first. If you believe in self idolisation by egotism self status then you believed in Jesus and not father.

Science a percentile man conscious agreed practice. If you all agreed as brothers we would not exist today.

If you say Phi returned your thesis light constant it never went anywhere. The vacuum law interfered with its constant presence using correct terms as taught relative advice.

So if you say constant Jesus theme was refused three times then likely it went dark unnaturally three times until vacuum returned to its owned natural law......small bodied spatial condition and not the large mass equation that science used.

Mass constantly being removed eventuated into O one big space hole invented.

Ask why two different bodies human create a New human when a man was never ovary owner. Came from same place of body. The eternal form.

Particular teachings inform us that parents came from spirit. Why we tell the story God originally before bursting came from spirit. Space became present the outcome of bursting.

Ask brother did Phi exist. No. I caused fallout. If Phi never existed first then it was never returned either.

Fake ......life should be sacrificed theory.

Phi gets sacrificed as it never existed it was theoried by thinking. Thinking does not exist body does. Uses applied to think.

rational experiences · Feb 14, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Gospels cannot be used as evidence for the Gospels because they have not been corroborated by any sources outside the Gospels. I mean anyone can write a story, but that story is no proof that anything in that story ever took place. That applies in particular to the stories of the bodily resurrection.

As the body on the cross. Gas spirit heavens by mass was burning constant.

Light constant natural. Science thinking about it not natural.

If science said before cooling colder sun big bang blasted placing light constant into immaculate gases. Then first the sun owned no blasting.

It did blast and become hotter what science lied about.

Then the thinker quotes our parents in eternal came into heavens as eternal. Two same thoughts. Came into. We certainly were not the Sun that sacrificed the immaculate into a womb crossing constant were we!

How coercive word use gets life destroyed in thesis.

Trailblazer · Feb 14, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
At least we have birth and death dates for Baha'u'llah so we know he was a real person. That's a hell of a lot more than we can say for Jesus, whoever he really was or if he even existed.

Ubetcha, and we also have a recorded history of His Life and what He did on His Mission. Many of the people who recorded this history knew Baha'u'llah in person.

Baha'i history began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The two texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944).

These texts are free to read or download from the following websites:

Baha’i Reference Library online older version
Baha’i Reference Library online new version

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, covers the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

This is not in the Baha'i Reference Library, but it is free to read online.

I believe that Jesus existed and did certain things because Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus. I cannot say that I believe everything that is recorded in the Gospels because logically speaking stories are not proof of anything that is written in stories and there is nobody outside the stories living at the time that corroborated the stories.

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
At least we have birth and death dates for Baha'u'llah so we know he was a real person. That's a hell of a lot more than we can say for Jesus, whoever he really was or if he even existed.

Because Baha'u'llah was just 100 years ago, the Son of God incarnate 2000 years ago in a nation that largely rejected him, killed him and had no desire to preserve his memory.

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Gospels cannot be used as evidence for the Gospels because they have not been corroborated by any sources outside the Gospels. I mean anyone can write a story, but that story is no proof that anything in that story ever took place. That applies in particular to the stories of the bodily resurrection.

You sourced the Gospels in your argument but now say they are unreliable? So you discredited your own rebuttal.

Colt · Feb 14, 2021

SeekingAllTruth said:
Unfortunately we have no historic proof for this. Christians must take it on faith. I'd love to see secular historic proof for any of this. I might even come back to Christianity if there was.

That’s true for much if history. I’ve been all over Israel to the places mentioned in the stories. Knights of Templar ruins in Nazareth. The recent discovery of Magdella as well as the shrine of Baha'u'llah.

SeekingAllTruth · Feb 14, 2021

cOLTER said:
Because Baha'u'llah was just 100 years ago, the Son of God incarnate 2000 years ago in a nation that largely rejected him, killed him and had no desire to preserve his memory.

You're absolutely right, cOLTER. That's why I started the thread "If God Really wanted us to believe Jesus was His divine son come to die for our sins wouldn't He have made sure that massive amounts of Secular evidence were left behind?" It's a reasonable question. God either wants us to believe Jesus is divine or He doesn't. This idea of believing by faith rather than evidence that Christianity has devised is simply a feeble attempt to keep rational people from asking a pretty basic question and I think in today's culture it fails. More and more young people are saying, "Show me the evidence and I'll believe." The church leaders have nothing to produce to prove Jesus was real, sadly. So the Nones, as they are called, say "Well, then I'm not interested in Jesus" and move on to other religions that don't have all the stringent dogma Christianity has. God the Father has essentially shot Himself in the foot by not leaving behind enough secular evidence for Jesus to fill a thimble. Either that, or as I have been saying, He's a deist God who simply doesn't give a damn whether or not we believe in Jesus, which would pretty much disinherit Jesus from any divine role. Being a deist, God doesn't involve Himself in any world affairs nor does He seem to care what happens to us as evidenced by all the pain and suffering even the most vulnerable children suffer horribly from.

When "Inerrant" Really Means "Full Of Errors"

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