I'm not very clever, if I was meant, so I don't answer this.
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Who Is an Israelite?
- Thread starter thomas t
- Start date
74x12
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that it did. I'm just saying that Jesus' Israel is not the earthly nation of Israel. It's a spiritual kingdom.
Then you don't really understand the verse or you would give your own explanation.
There are many reasons it should be considered the tree of Israel from the context. Like verses 24-26 make it pretty clear. There is really no debate about it.
True but that doesn't mean gentiles cannot be inwardly Jews.
You're grasping at straws. The fact you can be Abraham's son by having the faith of Abraham should imply that you can be Israel's son by the same way.
By the way I can even provide more scriptures. But let's stick with these for now.
In the NT I find who is now a Jew is mentioned at Romans 2:28-29 ( Not necessarily by fleshly descent ) .
So, since Pentecost we are speaking about ' spiritual Jews' ' spiritual Israelites ' aka the Christian congregation.
So, the nation of 'spiritual Israel' is separate from fleshly national Israel.- see 1 Peter 2:9,5
Jerusalem *above* is now the seat of government - Galatians 4:26
In my opinion, you have nothing to show that the olive tree is in fact Israel.
So let's see verses 24-26:
Israelites are called natural branches in verse 24. That does not mean the tree is Israel.
Germans are natural branches in the tree of the European Union.
That does not mean that all members of the European Union are in fact Germany. Germany is not the European Union.
Same with Israel here.
BTW, if the author really wanted to convey the message that he was talking about the tree of Israel... why say Olive in stead of Israel?
The same applies to Germany and the EU.
If I say Germany i mean Germany, and when I say Europe I mean Europe. There is no point in simply equating everything.
In verse 26, it says all Israel will be saved.
That does not mean that all saved ones are Israel.
True.
This does not prove your point though.
The onus is still on you to show that the Olive is Israel. So far you just said verses 24-26 will show, but they didn't. See above.
According to you.
But if this feels right or plausible to you, this does not mean it is plausible for anyone else, let alone God.
Actually, I'm not grasping straws, I think.
that's how your Jehova Witnesses talk apparently.
This doesn't make it truth though.
To the best of my knowledge, there is absolutely no Bible verse indicating that spiritual Jews are in fact Christians.
There is no verse indicating that spiritual Israel is Christianity, either.
Spiritual Germans are not Englishmen, and spiritual French are not Polish, either.
Spiritual Italy is not Sweden and spiritual Africa is not America, either.
Jer 11:16 The LORD called your name, A green olive tree, beautiful with goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he has kindled fire on it, and its branches are broken.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of Hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you, because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have worked for themselves in provoking me to anger by offering incense to Baal.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of Hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you, because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have worked for themselves in provoking me to anger by offering incense to Baal.
Actually the name was "Beautiful Green Olive Tree".
Note that it was written in past tense.
In my opinion, it seems they lost a title then.
If anyone wants to show that, in the New Testament, Israel is still called like that... they need to present scriptural evidence!
rosends
Well-Known Member
The word Israelite is an English term used by some to label people who lived before English was around. It has no actual historical basis.
The Children of Israel were a thing biblically. The Jews were a thing biblically. The nations of Israel and Judah were a thing biblically. Modern Israelis are a thing post biblically. Using Israelite as a thing causes confusion.
The Children of Israel were a thing biblically. The Jews were a thing biblically. The nations of Israel and Judah were a thing biblically. Modern Israelis are a thing post biblically. Using Israelite as a thing causes confusion.
I am convinced the proponents of taking New Testament's Israel as a metaphor for the Christian church would use this Hebrew word here:
Hebrew Concordance: hay·yiś·rə·’ê·lî -- 2 Occurrences
rosends
Well-Known Member
That would be an English choice. The Hebrew means "of Israel" as a reference to membership in the group known as the Children of Israel. In each of those places, the text is identifying a person as a member of the 12 tribes-collective specifically. It does not create some new category, distinct from the biblical identification; assigning it a separate English word frees the interpreter up to envision it as an innovative status. There are many examples of the text speaking about anyone from among the descendants of the 12 tribes as "of the children of Israel" so this term is connected to that concept, not a new word "Israelite."
Also, I note that in the first instance, the term is distinct from Yisraeleet (a female of Israel) which also appears in the text so it clearly isn't being used fully generically -- there is no equivalent distinction made in the English based on gender.
By what the Bible tells, circumcision and keeping the law is what defines a Jew.
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29
Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9
Because of those, a Christian can be called a Jew, if he has that circumcision of heart.
Obviously, some may disagree and say that Bible is wrong in that.
The author of the Christian book of Romans has no authority to say who is part of Israel.
Are you drawing some sort of distinction between "Israelite" and "Israeli"?
Actually, I think this article is more helpful to the OP.
Groups claiming affiliation with Israelites - Wikipedia
Listen, I do not attack your Talmud, so stay away from my Bible.
"Ethnicity" is irrelevant here.
I'm descended from Picts; that does not make me a Pict.
To the extent that the "Israelite" civilization was a thing, it ended thousands of years ago. There are no Israelites today.
There are certainly people who are descended from Israelites, and there are people who practice religions derived from Israelite religions, and some people to whom both of these apply, but that doesn't make them Israelites.
74x12
Well-Known Member
It's not a literal olive tree; it's a metaphor for Israel.
Israel is also called an olive tree in Hosea 14:1-6 and in Jeremiah 11:16 it's either Jerusalem, Judah, Israel or all three.
Well looking at verse 24 again we see they can be grafted into their own olive tree.
So that's an important detail here. It is their tree. It must be Israel.
Romans 11:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
for if thou, out of the olive tree, wild by nature, wast cut out, and, contrary to nature, wast graffed into a good olive tree, how much rather shall they, who [are] according to nature, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Really though the olive is for oil in ancient Israel and oil is symbolic of the anointing. The anointing is our connection with God. The tree is not so much Israel alone but Jesus Christ Himself who said I am the vine and ye are the branches ... without me ye can do nothing. Who is not just the offspring of David but also the root. (Revelation 22:16) Again with the metaphor of roots like in Romans 11:18. So the point here is that as I said at first Jesus is the eternal Israel and the Jews themselves are the natural branches but because they did not believe in Jesus they were broken off. Now gentiles can also partake if they believe ... they can be grafted in and partake of the anointing.
So there are really two Israels. Jacob was named Israel (Genesis 32:28) but he is not the resurrection and the life. Jesus Christ is. (john 11:25) So in the resurrection Jesus is the head of Israel being the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) and the head of the body (Ephesians 5:23) and anyone who are members of the body of Christ (which will include Jacob) will be Israel because Jesus is Israel.
Finally my point is that the resurrection begins now within anyone who has Jesus Christ. So inwardly they are Israel even if they are gentiles according to the flesh because they wait for the redemption of their body. (Romans 8:23)
exchemist
Veteran Member
Yes, possibly, though this article also acknowledges that the term Israelite is a historical one rather than a modern one. None of the groups mentioned in the article claims to be Israelites, just that they are descended from them.