How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

dybmh said:

Can you find anything in Jewish scripture to support this. I searched and coudn't find anything which matches the power of faith as described in the gospels.

Click to expand...

Jesus was talking about faith in the context of overcoming difficulties, not about tricks. Matthew 21:21 Commentaries: And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

(21) If ye have faith, and doubt not.—The promise, in its very form, excludes a literal fulfilment. The phrase to “remove mountains” (as in 1Corinthians 13:2) was a natural hyperbole for overcoming difficulties, and our Lord in pointing to “this mountain”—as He had done before to Hermon (Matthew 17:20)—did but give greater vividness to an illustration which the disciples would readily understand. A mere physical miracle, such as the removal of the mountain, could never be in itself the object of the prayer of a faith such as our Lord described. The hyperbole is used here, as elsewhere, to impress on men’s mind the truth which lies beneath it.

Click to expand...

dybmh said:

The strongest evidence would come from Tanach. It would need to be a story of a miracle which required faith.

Click to expand...

Jesus was talking in hyperbole about overcoming difficulties. His comment about faith was not literal.

Skywalker said:

Jesus was talking about faith in the context of overcoming difficulties, not about tricks. Matthew 21:21 Commentaries: And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

Click to expand...

Yes, I read this. But it doesn't seem relevant to the curse on the fig tree it's talking about moving mountains.

dybmh said:

Yes, I read this. But it doesn't seem relevant to the curse on the fig tree.

Click to expand...

Jesus wasn't talking literally about having faith and doubting not, when he told the apostles that they could do the same thing that he did.

dybmh said:

Yes, I read this. But it doesn't seem relevant to the curse on the fig tree it's talking about moving mountains.

Click to expand...

Jesus was talking in hyperbole about overcoming difficulties.

dybmh said:

Yes, I read this. But it doesn't seem relevant to the curse on the fig tree it's talking about moving mountains.

Click to expand...

Talking in hyperbole about overcoming difficulty isn't the same as talking about moving mountains. Matthew 21:21 Commentaries: And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

It was not likely that any such material miracle would literally be needed, and no one would ever pray for such a sign; but the expression is hyperbolically used to denote the performance of things most difficult and apparently impossible (see Zechariah 4:7; 1 Corinthians 13:2). Matthew 21:21

Click to expand...

Skywalker said:

Jesus wasn't talking literally about having faith and doubting not, when he told the apostles that they could do the same thing that he did.

Click to expand...

Skywalker said:

Jesus was talking in hyperbole about overcoming difficulties.

Click to expand...

Skywalker said:

Talking in hyperbole about overcoming difficulty isn't the same as talking about moving mountains. Matthew 21:21 Commentaries: And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

Click to expand...

Does this mean that the previous post citing "the power of faith" is wrong?

Is "the power of faith" a thing in the gospels, or is it all hyperbole?

dybmh said:

Does this mean that the previous post citing "the power of faith" is wrong?

Is "the power of faith" a thing in the gospels, or is it all hyperbole?

Click to expand...

I believe in faith as in trusting God, but as in not knowing if a prayer will come true, that's not for us to know.

dybmh said:

Does this mean that the previous post citing "the power of faith" is wrong?

Is "the power of faith" a thing in the gospels, or is it all hyperbole?

Click to expand...

In the context of what Jesus said, if ye have faith and doubt not was hyperbole.

My previous post about the power of faith was wrong.

Skywalker said:

There's nothing unbiblical about a Christian wearing Totafot or not working on the sabbath and not eating certain foods or wearing tsitsiyot or celebrating Jewish festivals.

Click to expand...

Actually, yes, there is, but your statement doesn't answer what I asked. Since you have made a practice of not answering direct points, but instead, making tangential comments and then inserting a snippet from some webpage which substantiates an irrelevant point, I won't hold out hope that your response to this will be useful, so I will go back to not responding to your random statements. Have a nice day.

rosends said:

Actually, yes, there is, but your statement doesn't answer what I asked. Since you have made a practice of not answering direct points, but instead, making tangential comments and then inserting a snippet from some webpage which substantiates an irrelevant point, I won't hold out hope that your response to this will be useful, so I will go back to not responding to your random statements. Have a nice day.

Click to expand...

Do you believe a certain amount of Jewish things being done by a Christian looks like two religions? My pastor said about James 1:27 that religion isn't a good term for following Jesus. Someone said that God only created one religion-Old Testament Judaism.

dybmh said:

I haven't found any promise for eternal life in Tanach. However to get right with God, I think Daniel 4:27 is good advice for anyone.

The pascal lamb sacrifice wasn't for atonement. It's nation building (Exodus 12:43). I see the foreshadowing, but the message I get from it is that Jesus was creating a new religious movement, a new assembly, or a new congregation.

From my perspective, this isn't needed. Knowledge of good and evil was inevitable. At some point desire would be combined with self-delusion and commandments would be broken. Desire and delusion both existed in people before Eve and Adam ate the forbidden fruit. Desire was given when God commanded to be "fruitful"; delusion/imagination was given when God brought the animals to Adam to be named. So I don't see anything which should be reversed. The human traits which lead to the first sin were already part of the human soul. To the contrary knowing how imagination and desire can be formed into good or evil is useful knowledge.

Click to expand...

You can't compare how the legal system works to God having a hell, because there is no legal equivalent of our sins separating us from God.

metis said:

What are you talking about? There are more than just one covenant found in the scriptures.

Click to expand...

That's why I believe the idea of the Messiah bring a New Covenant is not contrary to the Tanakh.

Skywalker said:

You can't compare how the legal system works to God having a hell, because there is no legal equivalent of our sins separating us from God.

Click to expand...

Hi Skywalker,

How are you?

metis said:

Maybe check this out: Who is God's Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

As a Christian, which I also am, one should be willing to admit that your interpretation is clearly not correct for a variety of reasons, but even with this being the case Jesus still can be believed in as a Messiah. Therefore, in no way does this diminish Jesus, what he was and still is, nor lessen the importance of what he taught.

Isaiah clearly is about the Babylonian exile and the return to Israel, and we know this because of names and places, some that changed names over the centuries, plus how the Law [the 613 Commandments] are integral to the text, which rather clearly does not and cannot apply to Christianity. Probably most Catholic and mainline Protestant theologians know this because of their rather intense training in both Jewish and Christian theology, but I have found many fundamentalist Protestant theologians not being as well theologically astute, and this includes the church I grew up in btw, or they feel they have to spout the "company line" or possibly lose their jobs. Tolerance of opinions is not a fundamentalist virtue, let me tell ya.

Anyhow, ...

Click to expand...

People confuse the first and second coming of Jesus with messiah ben joseph and messiah son of david. Messiah son of Joseph suffering and dying is mentioned in the writings of rabbis.

Messiah is not a man.
Symbolism man of God son immaculate clear gas sacrificed burning.

Planets son. Earth. Earth heavens ownership not human gas spirit.

Gas burning sacrifice.

We live as man son human in cold water body.

Compare our little flame light to mass that mass body would burn us to death. Science uses mass.

Son of god a God thesis claiming God was man like as God O earth in heat spurted it's spirit gas into the space womb.

Science once symbolised teaching by inference to self.

When you place teachings first with science it makes sense.

God earth inferred a father who conceived with space womb immaculate spirit.

Satan sun consuming hell attacked immaculate son sacrificed it by placing it into a crossing.

Immaculate crossed into sacrifice to be dies....the day. Water evaporation above our head kept our light flame safe.

Science made it fall out burning.

All humans by mass human sacrificed was not just one man.

Los of humans hurt waited to be healed when ground water by savior asteroid star put back pressure by gas mass.

Humans safe claim I am a star. Others await their returned water oxygenation.

A healer spirit aware medical teaching.

Left Coast said:

I have a question about this:

Does this mean Jewish folks believe the Messiah would abolish the current democratic Israeli government to establish a monarchy? Or I suppose, abolish all democracies?

Click to expand...

I don't know if you ever got an answer for this, but here goes.

According to Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism, the general idea is that the Davidic king won't need to abolish anything. It is held that the presence of such a person who can lead, based on Torah and halakha, will inspire the entire Jewish nation to transform itself into a Torah based nation. I.e. the monarchy is only a section of what the Torah details and when the Jewish people want a Torah based nation then there will be the ability for Torah based Davidic king to exist.

The nations of the world will operate as what works best for them, and thier people, in a way where it doesn't conflict with other nations. Again, based on their own choice after seeing the reality and the benefit to operate for the best interest of humanity.

Ehav4Ever said:

I don't know if you ever got an answer for this, but here goes.

According to Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism, the general idea is that the Davidic king won't need to abolish anything. It is held that the presence of such a person who can lead, based on Torah and halakha, will inspire the entire Jewish nation to transform itself into a Torah based nation. I.e. the monarchy is only a section of what the Torah details and when the Jewish people want a Torah based nation then there will be the ability for Torah based Davidic king to exist.

The nations of the world will operate as what works best for them, and thier people, in a way where it doesn't conflict with other nations. Again, based on their own choice after seeing the reality and the benefit to operate for the best interest of humanity.

Click to expand...

Jesus will rule the nations of the world righteously from Jerusalem, and Jesus and the first disciples were Jewish. Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

Skywalker said:

Jesus will rule the nations of the world righteously from Jerusalem, and Jesus and the first disciples were Jewish. Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

Click to expand...

That is the Christian story we have heard from some time now.

Ehav4Ever said:

That is the Christian story we have heard from some time now.

Click to expand...

What the New Testament says is consistent with the Messiah transforming Israel into a Torah based nation.