There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

Left Coast · Feb 9, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
I am citing statements made in the Tanakh. One from the Torah and two from different Nevi'im that in English are called prophets.

Right, what passages? What's the reference/chapter and verse?

Again, as I stated before a translation won't help you with this. Only the Hebrew text. I know this may seem like I am being dodgy but it actually proves the point I was making about the language in regards to claims made by Christians who state that what they hold by is found in the Hebrew Tanakh. It further proves who actually has the ability to read it and know what it is in.

I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense. You've got to be able to fairly accurately translate the passages into English. Orthodox Jews have already done this for the entire Tanakh, so surely it's not impossible. If there are terms that don't have a direct translation, say what the words are and give an explanation of what they mean.

If there is anyone Jewish who is viewing this thread feel free to verify if my short and to the point translation matches what is written in the sections of the Tankah I provided.

What you gave seemed to be more of a summary than a translation. I'm interested in a translation.

Ehav4Ever · Feb 9, 2021

Left Coast said:
Right, what passages? What's the reference/chapter and verse?

I sent it to you as a private message.

Left Coast said:
I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense. You've got to be able to fairly accurately translate the passages into English. Orthodox Jews have already done this for the entire Tanakh, so surely it's not impossible. If there are terms that don't have a direct translation, say what the words are and give an explanation of what they mean.

Orthodox Jews, actually do something different. 1) Orthodox Jews try their best to teach their children Hebrew/Aramaic, so the don't need translation, or they have someone else teach their children Hebrew/Aramaic. 2) The only reason that some Jews have produced "English" translation is because some Jews did not grow up with point #1. 3) ALL Jews recognize that the translation is not equal to nor supperior to the original. Further to this point, a Jew would know that an English translation is not the standard for understanding the Tanakh. Thus, even in majority English speaking synagogues when the Torah is read it is read in Hebrew. (Irregarless of it being Orthodox or not). Most Orthodox synagogues in America will read the Torah in Hebrew w/o translation.

Left Coast said:
What you gave seemed to be more of a summary than a translation. I'm interested in a translation.

I sent you a private note. My suggestion is that you for them in a "Jewish Tanakh" where the Hebrew and commentary are present.

Left Coast · Feb 9, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
I sent it to you as a private message.

Orthodox Jews, actually do something different. 1) Orthodox Jews try their best to teach their children Hebrew/Aramaic, so the don't need translation, or they have someone else teach their children Hebrew/Aramaic. 2) The only reason that some Jews have produced "English" translation is because some Jews did not grow up with point #1. 3) ALL Jews recognize that the translation is not equal to nor supperior to the original. Further to this point, a Jew would know that an English translation is not the standard for understanding the Tanakh. Thus, even in majority English speaking synagogues when the Torah is read it is read in Hebrew. (Irregarless of it being Orthodox or not). Most Orthodox synagogues in America will read the Torah in Hebrew w/o translation.

I sent you a private note. My suggestion is that you for them in a "Jewish Tanakh" where the Hebrew and commentary are present.

Yes, Muslims feel similarly about the Qur'an in the original Arabic.

My hunch is that the issues here have less to do with people "not knowing the language" and more about interpretation of the text being baked into how the original text should be understood, on top of what they literally say.

Ehav4Ever · Feb 9, 2021

Left Coast said:
Yes, Muslims feel similarly about the Qur'an in the original Arabic.

My hunch is that the issues here have less to do with people "not knowing the language" and more about interpretation of the text being baked into how the original text should be understood, on top of what they literally say.

Some of it is really a matter of how one who knows the langauge can see things in how it is written that a person who doesn't know the language can't see. Thus, a person who does not have the language may need a lengthier commentary vs. the person who knows the languae and learned the language with the commentary built into the learning.

Also, if it is kept in the lanaguage is harder to be fooled by someone who just shows up one day and makes up their own meaning. I.e. the burdon of proof is high when there is no translation.

I have done a number of videos on this topic.

74x12 · Feb 9, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
We are unconcerned about converting the non-Jewish world. We live on the same planet with all peoples and we have history of working with people who are not Jewish, just like all sane people should and do. There is no such thing as a "gentile world" since there is a world full of "human people/nations." PS for those who don't the term "gentile" is not a Jewish term. The words we have are (גוי גויים) or (נוכרי נוכרים). These words when translated properly just mean "nations/peoples."

In fact, I just finished being on a non-Jewish podcast w/o any problem. We Jews further have no concept of converting anyone not-Jewish to the Torah and no concept of forcing the Noachide laws on the world. Including missionizing things they don't want to hear.

I notice that seems to bother some people that we are not chasing them down to become Jewish.

Gentile is just English for goyim.

Do you believe in heaven and hell or the equivalent? I know some Jews do and that they think it depends on how many good deeds you've done and how observant you are as to where you end up. So do you?

Ehav4Ever · Feb 9, 2021

74x12 said:
Gentile is just English for goyim.

Not true. Goyyim means nations. In later Jewish texts it means - nations that do Avodah Zara. Further, in the Hebrew Tanakh Israel/Jews are call a Goi. So, that means we Jews are also Gentiles, if your "translation" is correct.

74x12 said:
Do you believe in heaven and hell or the equivalent? I know some Jews do and that they think it depends on how many good deeds you've done and how observant you are as to where you end up. So do you?

As mentioned before, when Christians states terms they often mean something different than what Jews say. So, when Christians say "heaven and hell" it doesn't mean the same thing that it may mean to an English speaking Jew who would use such terms. For example, you say you know some Jews. Ask them what they mean by heaven and hell. Further, ask them what constitutes a "good deed." Then ask them what they say a Jew should be "obervant" to. Lastly, ask them to show you Hebrew texts where what they say is found and ask them to translate said texts.

So, generally Torath Mosheh Jews hold that there is an "Olam Hazeh" and an "Olam Haba." The Christian form of hell does not exit for us.

Ehav4Ever · Feb 9, 2021

74x12 said:
Do you believe in heaven and hell or the equivalent? I know some Jews do and that they think it depends on how many good deeds you've done and how observant you are as to where you end up. So do you?

BTW: to cut you off at the pass. We Jews have no Torah mandated concept about the mechanics of the Olam Haba that we Torah based Jews are required to hold by. We simply know that there is an Olam Haba and the mechanics will be what they are when it happens. Yet, again the Christian concept of heaven and hell is not Torath Mosheh.

Brickjectivity · Feb 9, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
Exactly, and thus there is no need for Jews to even consider Christianity since it is not for us to consider and there are enough people in the world who are happy with being Christians. There is no Jewish desire to convince Christians to drop what makes them happy to go for something else.

Thus, if we all just accept that people have their ways and views then the world will work fine and there is no need for anyone missionizing the other. See, we are getting somewhere.

...and I would not suggest otherwise. You may trust me. Worst case I'm a tourist.

I have my doubts that everyone in the world is ready just yet to let me have my views and leave me to them. That remains to happen.

loverofhumanity · Feb 9, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
In reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology.

According to most Jews, in reality, Christian theology is not a topic that really involves Jews since we are not in competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation thus we have no real stake in the vs. kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented by those not Jewish about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most Jews wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert Jews to Christianity.

Even the terminology used in "English" in this type of back and forth religious debate is not a Jews vs. Christian matter because if it were to take place in Hebrew you could end the discussion in about 10 minutes.

For example, if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

Further, Torah based Jews do not consider the New Testament to be historically accurate in various places, we consider the NT of unreliable authorship from start to finish, and we also view the NT's theological content to be foreign to Torath Mosheh. YET, as far as Torah based Jews are concerned this is not something that we must challenge Christians on. I.e. if Christians accept it then it is not our place to get involved.

Lastly, the "English word" messiah, along with a number of other "English" words used in conversations like this, means one thing to Christians and it means something completely different to Jews. For example:

Messiah: Christian definition = Jesus, dying for sins, sometimes god/sometimes not, personal salvation. (Definitions based on Greek NT and the Church Fathers).

messiah: Jewish definition = not the correct term, but only used due to presence in English speaking countries. Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in his lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.)

Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. You can take the vs. out and simply title such a thread "Christianity: [fill in the blank]" and you can do a seperate thread titled, "Judaism: The Future Davidic King" where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used w/o translation and basically be done with the whole thing quick and fast.

I liked the Jewish explanation of messiah.

Interesting is the interpretation of Jewish and Christian scriptures by Baha’u’llah.

Torah

.the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).

Gospels

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances

PruePhillip · Feb 9, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
... if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

Further, Torah based Jews do not consider the New Testament to be historically accurate in various places, we consider the NT of unreliable authorship from start to finish, and we also view the NT's theological content to be foreign to Torath Mosheh. YET, as far as Torah based Jews are concerned this is not something that we must challenge Christians on. I.e. if Christians accept it then it is not our place to get involved.

'Historically accurate' is difficult. Yes, there was a town called Nazareth, and a procurator called Pilot etc..
But as for the miracles they cannot be 'historic' anymore than the Tanakh miracles are 'historic.'
But just three verses to translate if you please:

“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom
it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his” Genesis 49:10

"I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been
destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God." Job 19:25

"On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of
David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they
have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son." Zechariah 12:9

Ehav4Ever · Feb 9, 2021

PruePhillip said:
'Historically accurate' is difficult. Yes, there was a town called Nazareth, and a procurator called Pilot etc..
But as for the miracles they cannot be 'historic' anymore than the Tanakh miracles are 'historic.'
But just three verses to translate if you please:

“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom
it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his” Genesis 49:10

"I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been
destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God." Job 19:25

"On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of
David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they
have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son." Zechariah 12:9

You have to remember that we Jews feel no compulsion to prove to the world that anything in the Tanakh is accurate.

In terms of what the texts you are asking about means. Would you be willing to do a Zoom with me where I show you from the Hebrew text what they mean? It would take about 10 minutes. I can do all the leg work to set up the zoom.

Clara Tea · Feb 9, 2021

[QUOTE="Ehav4Ever, post: 7026474, member: 68847"Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion[/QUOTE]

Agreed, Jews aren't proselytizing Christians. Some Christians consider it an affront that Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. They think that Jews insult Christ by not believing in him.

Colt · Feb 9, 2021

Left Coast said:
You make a good point that much of the discussion about Christianity and Judaism puts them at odds, when in reality they are often talking past each other with completely different understanding of certain concepts and terms.

However, it does strike me that if you're right about the Hebrew Bible being so allegedly clear, why do all Jews not agree with each other about how to understand or apply it? And this is not only the case now, it has been the case for millenia. The claim very much reminds me of Christians who claim that if other Christians "just read the Bible" they'd come to agree with them. It just doesn't work out that way in practice.

While the atonement doctrine was added after Jesus left (he never taught it) the original simple concept of Jesus liberated Jews, and many other enslaving religions, from the traditional yoke of ritualistic bondage.

Some Christians realize that Judaism is largely an evolved religion created by humans based on a vastly exaggerated revised history.

PruePhillip · Feb 9, 2021

Clara Tea said:
[QUOTE="Ehav4Ever, post: 7026474, member: 68847"Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion

Agreed, Jews aren't proselytizing Christians. Some Christians consider it an affront that Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. They think that Jews insult Christ by not believing in him.[/QUOTE]

Well, Jesus was offended. But not surprised. There's a lot of scripture of the
Redeemer in the Old Testament which speaks of Him being despised and
rejected - and Israel ending with His coming.

Left Coast · Feb 9, 2021

cOLTER said:
While the atonement doctrine was added after Jesus left (he never taught it) the original simple concept of Jesus liberated Jews, and many other enslaving religions, from the traditional yoke of ritualistic bondage.

Some Christians realize that Judaism is largely an evolved religion created by humans based on a vastly exaggerated revised history.

IMHO, Christianity is also an evolved religion created by humans based on a vastly exaggerated revised history. So that's a fascinating critique by you.

PruePhillip · Feb 10, 2021

Left Coast said:
IMHO, Christianity is also an evolved religion created by humans based on a vastly exaggerated revised history. So that's a fascinating critique by you.

I like to think one thing concerning the New Testament - it either happened or it didn't.
There's no middle ground. We believe what we want to believe, just as we do when
someone says the universe created itself when it didn't exist.

Ehav4Ever · Feb 10, 2021

PruePhillip said:
There's a lot of scripture of the Redeemer in the Old Testament which speaks of Him being despised and rejected - and Israel ending with His coming.

Really! Would you be willing to do a zoom where you show me this in a Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation? I.e. you name the book, chapter, and verse. I show it to you in Hebrew and a) you show me in the Hebrew w/o a translation where it says that or b) I read it to you in Hebrew, I translate it on the spot, and I show you how I came to translate it that way/and the sources that back me up w/o the use of a translation.

So far, no one has been willing to take up offer. It costs you nothing and who knows you may convince me. I am required to hold by the truth no matter where it comes from BTW.

PruePhillip · Feb 10, 2021

Ehav4Ever said:
Really! Would you be willing to do a zoom where you show me this in a Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation? I.e. you name the book, chapter, and verse. I show it to you in Hebrew and a) you show me in the Hebrew w/o a translation where it says that or b) I read it to you in Hebrew, I translate it on the spot, and I show you how I came to translate it that way/and the sources that back me up w/o the use of a translation.

So far, no one has been willing to take up offer. It costs you nothing and who knows you may convince me. I am required to hold by the truth no matter where it comes from BTW.

So when Job speaks of his Redeemer is being alive and one day standing on the earth,
who do you think he was speaking of, or is he yet to come?
And when Daniel said the enemy would come in like a flood and destroy the temple,
the altar, Jerusalem and he to whom all things belong, who was he speaking of, or is
this yet to happen also?

ps don't use Zoom, don't even know what it is. Text here, on this site, is fine.

Colt · Feb 10, 2021

PruePhillip said:
I like to think one thing concerning the New Testament - it either happened or it didn't.
There's no middle ground. We believe what we want to believe, just as we do when
someone says the universe created itself when it didn't exist.

With the NT at least we have the apostles and subsequent generations of believers. I think people believe what they think is true and doubt what they think is untrue. But that doesn't make things true or false.

Ehav4Ever · Feb 10, 2021

Clara Tea said:
Agreed, Jews aren't proselytizing Christians. Some Christians consider it an affront that Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. They think that Jews insult Christ by not believing in him.

Exactly, it is like this. What follows is me equating this to the Star Wars trilogy.

Return of the Jedi ten minutes before the credits.

Emperor - Luke. I am your father! Follow me into the dark side. You will love it over here.

Luke - Wait, that can't be true! The guy in the black breathing suit told me he was my father in the last movie, after he cut off my hand. Also, you are a Sith - you are guys are evil.

Emperor - Don't beleive him. Beleive me. You misunderstand. We Sith are the good guys. That is why we built these two Death Stars with low paid labor and shady contractors supported by Mustafa Mafia types. Join me for the good task of destabalizing the galaxay.

Luke - Why should I believe you? What is your last name?

Emperor - My last name is Palpatine. That proves that I am your father.

Luke - My last name is Skywalker and the guy in the black suit has the same last name as me, which even you said earlier. The force tells me he is my father. Do you have any proof that instead you are my father. Maybe a Midi-chlorian count, maybe a paternity test? In fact, what is my grandmother's name?

Emperor - No, I don't have any of that stuff and I know what I said earlier. I also have no idea who your grandmother was. I have no proof what so ever, even in the force which I am powerful in. Yet, beleive me anyway.

Luke - No thanks. Your claims seems to be really shaky and you even contradict what happened in the first two movies and also what happens in the next movies, including the prequals which I watched before showing up here.

Emperor - HOW DARE YOU NOT BELEIVE MY FLIMSY AND MADE UP CLAIMS!

There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

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