Does God Play "Hide and Seek"?

thomas t said:

so, how on earth would the Russian tactics to sacrifice the capital would have worked out if Napoleon wouldn't have attacked?
It's the same thing.

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It really isn't. Russia couldn't have wiped out Napoleon and his complete army with the blink of an eye, just because it wanted to.

God (in the bible story) could have done that. Instead, he deliberately went for the option where he got himself killed and as such sacrificed himself to himself to act as a loophole for a messed up system he in the end is ultimately responsible for himself.

In fact, thinking about it... the story makes more sense as god punishing himself for the mess he created instead of him "dying" for the "sins of others".

In any case, we are talking about an omnipotent, all-knowing creator of everything here. Everything that happens, by definition happens only because he allows it to happen. Which includes him being "killed". Quotes, because immortal beings off course can't die............................

PureX said:

God "hides" a lot like air is "invisible".

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Air isn't "invisible". It's instead extremely measureable and detectable.

The way god hides is more like how a leprechaun hides his pot of gold.

PureX said:

Sure. It is the prime directive of capitalism, after all.

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It's not.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Air isn't "invisible". It's instead extremely measureable and detectable.

The way god hides is more like how a leprechaun hides his pot of gold.

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And not even that well. We can all see rainbows.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Air isn't "invisible". It's instead extremely measureable and detectable.

The way god hides is more like how a leprechaun hides his pot of gold.

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You completely missed the point. It's about perception, not physics.

TagliatelliMonster said:

It's not.

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It's people with more money than they need, using it to get as much more money as they can. That's greed. And that's capitalism.

PureX said:

You completely missed the point. It's about perception, not physics.

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The point doesn't make sense. Air is very objectively detectable. In a multitude of ways even. So it fails miserably as the analogy you tried to make it out to be.


You used the word "invisble". But what you should have used is undetectable.
They are not the same thing.

Magnetic fields are "invisible". They aren't undetectable.

Your god is invisible and undetectable.

PureX said:

It's people with more money than they need, using it to get as much more money as they can. That's greed. And that's capitalism.

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Neither is capitalism.

A poor person making little money in a business he freely operates, owns and runs in a free market place, is also capitalism.

Capitalism is about being able to privately own a business and its operations, including its means of production, and doing all that while getting to keep the profits (if there are profits) and being held responsible for the losses (if there are losses).

It's a corner stone of freedom and a free marketplace.

You don't like freedom and a free market place?

That some people get filthy rich running their business and freely investing in things with ROI's is a feature, not a bug nor a prerequisite or obligation.


You should get that stick out of your.... you know.

thomas t said:

In Interfaith Discussion, someone said so.
Since I want to debate, let me open up a thread in the debate section now.

In my opinion it is not childish to play hide and seek.
For - the Christian - God it makes sense, in my view.

Last time he landed on the cross.
Why should he bother to come into an environment in which people want to kill him (again)?
Even if he is powerful enough to prevent others from killing him - the mere experience of people trying to kill him must be an unpleasant one, I guess.

This is arguing for the Christian God conception. At least seen from my point of view.

Anyone please feel free to add their views on how this issue is handled in other religions...

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It is true that we can't see God with our eyes, but maybe we don't have to. When I look at a building, I don't need to see the architect and builders to believe they exist. The building didn't just spring out of the ground one day, so even if the people who made the building are not physically there, their work is enough for me to believe their existence.
I don't believe that God is hiding from people because he's afraid of how humans are going to treat him. First, based on bible scripture, I believe Jesus was the son of God and not God himself, so 2 different entities. According to those scriptures, God wasn't killed by humans, that was his son, Jesus who died. Sure it must have been unpleasant, but Jesus came to the earth with a mission, and losing his life was part of it, so his mission was successful. If you look at bible prophecy, the next time Jesus shows up, he's not going to be killed again; he'll be coming to clean the "house" and he won't be afraid of humans.

thomas t said:

In Interfaith Discussion, someone said so.
Since I want to debate, let me open up a thread in the debate section now.

In my opinion it is not childish to play hide and seek.
For - the Christian - God it makes sense, in my view.

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I think the problem comes in when one wants to ascribe too many wide and varied ideas to God that are all "omni" (al-encompassing, maximum/best or immaculate).

Take this example you have provided - the idea of "playing hide and seek." If one accepts that such is a fairly accurate reflection of what God is doing (by directing people to seek Him out before actually "revealing" Himself - seems fair to me, based on descriptions I have been given), and then we pair that with other ideas that Christians often hold - for instance, the idea that God is "perfect," and that He loves everyone - then we find ourselves necessarily contemplating whether or not the "perfect" way to treat our loved ones would be to hide from them and only interact with them once they have sought us out. That sounds patently ridiculous to me, honestly. I think it would to any of us rationally contemplating such a situation.

God, however, gets a free pass on all sorts of behavioral shenanigans that we simply wouldn't put up with from any other loved one in our lives without requesting some form of explanation or chastising them outright for behaving like idiots. Why is that?

thomas t said:

In Interfaith Discussion, someone said so.
Since I want to debate, let me open up a thread in the debate section now.

In my opinion it is not childish to play hide and seek.
For - the Christian - God it makes sense, in my view.

Last time he landed on the cross.
Why should he bother to come into an environment in which people want to kill him (again)?
Even if he is powerful enough to prevent others from killing him - the mere experience of people trying to kill him must be an unpleasant one, I guess.

This is arguing for the Christian God conception. At least seen from my point of view.

Anyone please feel free to add their views on how this issue is handled in other religions...

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Free will is required of God. This means that we are free to believe or not.

If the hand of God reached down from heaven to stop a dam from rupturing, and it was caught on the 6 O'clock news, then everyone would be forced to believe. If forced, they are not free to disbelieve.

We are supposed to be free to be good or evil. That allows good spirits to go to heaven, and that forces bad spirits to be locked in hell, where none but the most powerful evil demons can escape (like the two demons, dragon and beast mentioned in Revelation who became presidents of the United States and attacked Iraq). According to the bible, those two demons were from the bottomless pit of hell. The bible says that they ruled the most powerful nation in the world (Revelation 17:18).

Life, therefore, is a purification process for God. God puts a tiny piece of himself (called a soul or spirit) in each one of us, and that soul is tested for goodness. That soul has to be free to go its own way, and too much knowledge of God would change its natural course.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Wasn't that exactly his plan all along?

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yes. It was his plan very much in the way the Russians planned to abondon their capital the moment Napoleon attacked.

TagliatelliMonster said:

How does one "kill" an immortal being?

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if the immortal being incarnates you can kill the body.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Well.......... considering this god is supposedly all knowing and all powerfull, if one would assume the bible stories as correct one could only conclude that he PLANNED to be "killed" on the cross and could have easily have it turned out differently if he so wanted to.

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God's "omnipotence" is restricted, in my opinion.
He can't create the suqare triangle now.
He set up the rule: triangles have three sides... and that's how it is.
Equally, he set up the rule: everybody has free choice and that's where we are right now.

TagliatelliMonster said:

I'ld rather say that humans wanting to "killing him" would rather be comparable to 2 ants trying to give a human a beating.

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However, God says in the Bible we are like him.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Sounds like you think that this christian god is so weak that he can't even defend himself and stand up to a mob of puny humans.

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he could.
But what would he do if all his followers after would have been under threat of being killed, too? Just for their religion? save them, too? This is against the creation rule of free choice if it happens every single time, I think.
Everyone one earth has the possibility to shoose freely what they do.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Vee said:

I don't believe that God is hiding from people because he's afraid of how humans are going to treat him.

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Well, I wasn't saying that God was afraid.
It would simply get on his nerves to go into an environment in which everyone wants to kill, in my opinion.

Vee said:

First, based on bible scripture, I believe Jesus was the son of God and not God himself, so 2 different entities.

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that's your take. You know that not everyone believes like this, so we can keep this for another thread!
Anyway...
the situation does not change if it was merely his son and not part of himself, in my opinion.
Earth doesn't get any more pleasant for God to stay if they "only" killed his son.
Are you a mother? Would you like the place where people killed your child?
I think, this is how God might feel, too!

Vee said:

Sure it must have been unpleasant, but Jesus came to the earth with a mission, and losing his life was part of it, so his mission was successful.

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Look, if you were a fireman with a mission to enter a building to save a child... would you go into another burning building just like that some time after?
no because still, it's unpleasant!

Vee said:

f you look at bible prophecy, the next time Jesus shows up, he's not going to be killed again; he'll be coming to clean the "house" and he won't be afraid of humans.

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So let me rephrase:
Does God play hide and seek during the time till his second coming?

thomas t said:

yes. It was his plan very much in the way the Russians planned to abondon their capital the moment Napoleon attacked.

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The russians did that because they didn't have the power to obliterate Napoleon along with his army in the blink of an eye and didn't feel like they had a choice. It's a pretty desperate thing to do after all...

Are you saying your god is as weak as the Russians were? The all-knowing omnipotent creator of literally everything "had no other choice" and was as "desperate" as the Russians were?

Does that even remotely make sense to you?

if the immortal being incarnates you can kill the body.

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Only because he allows it.

And then he continues to be an immortal being who can create a trillion more of such bodies without breaking a sweat. This is like deleting a file on your local pc while a trillion copies still exist in the cloud. A pretty pointless thing to do...

He could also easily regenerate said body or even make it invulnerable.
In either case, the very concept of "killing" an immortal being, is a contradiction in terms. No matter how many ad hoc "explanations" or excuses you can come up with.

God's "omnipotence" is restricted, in my opinion.

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Then it's not "omni".

He can't create the suqare triangle now.

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Because that's a contradiction in terms. It's a self-contradictory thing that can't exist by definition. I don't see how that is relevant here at all...

He set up the rule: triangles have three sides... and that's how it is.

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Errr... no. "triangle" is a label we humans use to identify a geometric shape with 3 straight sides and 3 angles. As in: if it has more then that, then by definition it's not a triangle.

Equally, he set up the rule: everybody has free choice and that's where we are right now.

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Again, I don't see how that is relevant here at all.
Total red herring.

However, God says in the Bible we are like him.

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The bible says a lot of things.
However, when it comes to "powers", clearly god is nothing like humans.

he could.
But what would he do if all his followers after would have been under threat of being killed, too?

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About the same thing as being under threat of eternal hell, I'ld guess. I mean, the complete religion is one gigantic guilt trip that preys on fear.
At least then they'ld know he actually exists instead of having to believe it on bad evidence.

Just for their religion? save them, too? This is against the creation rule of free choice

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It totally is not and your very religion proves it is not.
Satan for example knows for a fact that god exists (in the story). Yet that didn't stop him from rebelling against this god, now did it?

Knowing (instead of having to believe on bad evidence) does not at all interfere with free will.
You make a nonsense, demonstrably false, argument here.

Everyone one earth has the possibility to shoose freely what they do.

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They'ld have the ability to choose regardless.
So I have no clue what you are on about. You seem all over the place.

thomas t said:

yes, the fireman also intentionally enters the house to save someone.

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Except that the fireman did not start the fire....

thomas t said:

Thank you for making me think.
it's like Russia having planned to burn down their own capital when Napoleon approached.
It was part of the Russian plan, wasn't it?


I don't think so.
You can't blame an innocent human being for murder just for having shown up the wrong way.
If I show up the wrong way in a bar, I don't want to be shot for it. I have a right to life.
So does God.
I don't think so.
BTW there are countless humans who believe without ever having encountered him or his voice or... or... . They just read the Bible and believe, isn't this great?

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BTW there are countless humans who believe without ever having encountered him or his voice or... or... . They just read the Bible and believe, isn't this great?

No, it's not great. In fact it's the opposite of great. It's a sign that a huge portion of the population isn't capable of using reasoned thought and logic when reaching conclusions about reality. That's like saying that there are countless people who believe in Q-anon, without ever having encountered any actual evidence for the claims... they just read some b.s. on the Internet and believe! Isn't that GREAT?

thomas t said:

yes, the fireman also intentionally enters the house to save someone.

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Nowhere near the same thing.

Jesus came to Earth specifically to be sacrificed. That was literally his main purpose. God had decided that he couldn't forgive humanity's sins unless someone was killed (which makes no sense in the first place, but...), and that's why he sent Jesus.

Are you suggesting that someone has to die in the housefire, and the fireman goes in so he can die instead of whoever lives there?

TagliatelliMonster said:

The russians did that because they didn't have the power to obliterate Napoleon along with his army in the blink of an eye and didn't feel like they had a choice. It's a pretty desperate thing to do after all...

Are you saying your god is as weak as the Russians were? The all-knowing omnipotent creator of literally everything "had no other choice" and was as "desperate" as the Russians were?

Does that even remotely make sense to you?

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Jesus had powers... however, the next followers would be as powerless as the Russians. They didn't just execute Jesus, they executed many more Christians for their faith.
So, you think that the boss for his extraordinary powers could nicely have escaped death only to have his followers die a horrible death in persecution? Is this the loving colleague?
No, Jesus accepts the same death they would have designed for every Christian during the first centuries...
And I don't make ad hoc explanations here.


But now you say:

TagliatelliMonster said:

They'ld have the ability to choose regardless.
So I have no clue what you are on about. You seem all over the place.

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People sometimes choose to murder.
God is not the one who will stop one and every murderer.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Then it's not "omni".

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Bible says God's powers are limitless.
This includes setting up rules in creation and being determined to leave them in place.
These rules may restrict what people call "omni".
A true limit on God's powers would be to be obliged to change creation rules every single time it may seem appropriate (to atheists...).

This limit does not exist... so he leaves certain creation rules in place.
Such as free will.
This is at least my stance on the topic of creation rules.
When people choose to murder, God lets this happen by default.
Because he chose to set up the creation rule of free will.
There is no red herring involved in my argument.

TagliatelliMonster said:

About the same thing as being under threat of eternal hell, I'ld guess. I mean, the complete religion is one gigantic guilt trip that preys on fear.
At least then they'ld know he actually exists instead of having to believe it on bad evidence.

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this comparison is bad, I think.
They killed Jesus although he was not guilty.
When humans receive punishment after death, it's because they deserve it and I believe God is fair.

TagliatelliMonster said:

It totally is not and your very religion proves it is not.
Satan for example knows for a fact that god exists (in the story). Yet that didn't stop him from rebelling against this god, now did it?

Knowing (instead of having to believe on bad evidence) does not at all interfere with free will.
You make a nonsense, demonstrably false, argument here.

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Well, Satan rebelled.
I don't make a nonsense argument here, I think.

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TagliatelliMonster said:

And then he continues to be an immortal being who can create a trillion more of such bodies without breaking a sweat.

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God according to the Bible sometimes sweats when working, it seems. See Isaiah 43:24.

Note also that according to the Bible, humans are given tremendous powers, too.
They could say to a mountain it shall move and it will move, it just requires faith.
So, according to a Biblical understanding, men are similar to God.

Mestemia said:

Except that the fireman did not start the fire....

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neither did God, in my opinion.

Tiberius said:

Nowhere near the same thing.

Jesus came to Earth specifically to be sacrificed. That was literally his main purpose. God had decided that he couldn't forgive humanity's sins unless someone was killed (which makes no sense in the first place, but...), and that's why he sent Jesus.

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+

Tiberius said:

Are you suggesting that someone has to die in the housefire, and the fireman goes in so he can die instead of whoever lives there?

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no, that wasn't my point here.
Let me put it this way:
On Wednesday the fireman was asked if he would save a child from a burning building (in case).
The fire department offers him 100€ extra for such a service.
The fireman agrees and offers the department to make a donation of 100€ in this case.
Later, the same exact scenario happened and the fireman was asked to save the child.
So he did.
He was given the 100€. But since he said he would make the donation ... he gave it back to the department.
After, the department bought a tree worth 100€.

The tree is the free pass to receive forgiveness. It is applicable to all humanity... on condition that they believe this story.
Wednesday was the day before the creation of the foundations of the earth.
And Jesus was the fireman.
Nice, isn't it?
To be precise, people "only" need to believe He is Lord and get the baptism and this is how they get the the free pass.
I believe Jesus is Lord!

This is at least how I see the story.