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Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
But what if I have the Truth!!:(?

Seriously that is what you should do. I am not a "There is no God!" atheist. I am a "I have not seen adequate evidence of a god or of the need for one" atheist. Give me enough valid evidence and I will change my mind. It is hard to say how much it would take, but it is clearly more than none. Many theists when asked how much evidence would it take to change their mind will make the error of saying that no amount of evidence will do so. I don't know if you watched the Ken Ham-Bill Nye debate but you can see the moment that Ham lost the debate when he stated that no amount of evidence would change his mind and Nye said given adequate evidence he would change his mind. It immediately became clear who was debating rationally.

And of course evolution does not disprove God. It only disproves the "God" of the Young Earth and Old Earth Creationists. I always find it ironic when Christians have the gall to tell their God how he had to make the world.

I am the same type of atheist as you. I consider atheists who say that there is no god/s to be the equivalent of believers who believe because of flaws in their critical thinking. One shouldn't come to a conclusion about something if the topic is unexaminable and unfalsifiable.

A lot of theists like to bring up the strong atheist strawman with me, and most likely you as well, and I find that they struggle to understand the critical thinking element of my viewpoints.

I have seen the youtube pic of the Ken Ham-Bill Nye debate but haven't watched it. I did go through a phase where I watched the atheist experience and Matt Dillahunty has the same view as us, and he says that atheists who say that there definitely is no god are atheists for the wrong reasons.

The important point is HOW we come to a conclusion, not the conclusion itself.

When I get into a debate with theists it is largely got to do with their specific religion and its claims about god than the god concept itself.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I hadn’t heard of confirmation bias before so thanks for that, but after reading about that it doesn’t apply to my life at all. Have you considered that you may have fallen victim to that with science?
Scientific theories are testable in multiple ways by independent sources. Believers in the Bible never come up with proper tests for their beliefs. In other words, no. Confirmation bias is avoided in the sciences but embraced in religions. And even though you deny it if you do not have reliable evidence for your beliefs, and that does not mean reliable to you, then even with your denial you probably still are a victim of confirmation bias.
 

37818

Active Member
The sole reason genuine Christians know God is that God made Himself known unto them by causing them to be "born again." References: John 3:3. John 1:12-13. Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16. 1 John 5:9-13. Romans 1:16. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The sole reason genuine Christians know God is that God made Himself known unto them by causing them to be "born again." References: John 3:3. John 1:12-13. Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16. 1 John 5:9-13. Romans 1:16. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Not a very genuine reason since other religions will have similar but different "tests". Being "born again" is simply extreme confirmation bias. And some of the worst "sinners" that I have ever known were so called born again Christians. There is a verse that is often abused by born again Christians that makes them think that they cannot sin any longer. Well guess what? They can and with that attitude they are often worse than they were before. They pretend that God justifies their actions therefore it is not sin.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There's nothing new to learn, once you know the truth everything else is exposed for what it is.
I could say the same thing about my religious beliefs because I know they are true, but there is always something NEW to learn. I am a true seeker and seek knowledge so I learn something new every day -- about other religions, and about many other things such as history and science and psychology.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
She quotes or should I say (misquotes) the Bible all them time, so I assumed she was a Christian since the whole Bible is about the Lord Jesus Christ from cover to cover
That is laughable. I quote directly from the Bible, KJV, you just don't like what I quote because it proves that you are wrong and that Jesus is never coming back to earth -- NEVER.

Another thing that is laughable is saying that the WHOLE Bible is about Jesus Christ, I cannot even stop laughing.

The Old Testament is mostly about Moses and the other Prophets and NONE the OT prophecies that refer to the Messiah of the end times are about Jesus. ALL those prophecies refer to Baha'u'llah and I have proof since He already fulfilled them -- on the ground. Those prophecies which have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age, which we entered in 1852 when Baha'u'llah first heard from God.

A revelation from God - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I study the NKJV, which does teach that Jesus is coming back. Last time I checked, the clouds were a part of the earth but you're welcome to believe they're a part of deep space
NO, the NKJV absolutely does not say that Jesus is coming back.
I already told you that the Son of man in the clouds does not refer to Jesus and posted the link to my thread but apparently you never read it. Here it is:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person.

How do you write in 3rd person?

Third person refers to people “on the outside.” You either write about someone by name or use third person pronouns. Third person pronouns include: he, she, it; his, her, its; him, her, it; himself, herself, itself; they; them; their; themselves.
6 Ways to Write in Third Person - wikiHow

Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and Jesus says “also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Moreover, not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. Rather, Jesus said His work was finished in the world and He was no more in the world.

Why didn’t Jesus say He was going to return to earth if He had been planning to return to earth? If Jesus was planning to return to earth why did Jesus say I have finished my work, the world will see me no more, and I am no more in the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
By the way, interpreting Mark 14:12 correctly is not an essential to the Christian faith. But belief in the bodily resurrection and in the future second appearing are essentials of the faith.
No, believing in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not essential to the Christian faith.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3

http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

Believing in the future second coming is also not essential to the Christian faith, because if Jesus did not rise, Jesus can never return in the same body. As Jesus promised, His Spirit did return as I explained to you before:

37818 said: and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Trailblazer said: Jesus did appear a second time, but not in the same body, and that is what Christians simply cannot accept....
but it is all in the New Testament.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


Jesus was a Comforter.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus promised to send the the another Comforter who would bring the Holy Spi
rit, which was Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
 
Scientific theories are testable in multiple ways by independent sources. Believers in the Bible never come up with proper tests for their beliefs. In other words, no. Confirmation bias is avoided in the sciences but embraced in religions. And even though you deny it if you do not have reliable evidence for your beliefs, and that does not mean reliable to you, then even with your denial you probably still are a victim of confirmation bias.
Is Science infallible?
 
.Really? Have you even read the Bible?

But at any rate, the Bible is not God. People that interpret the Bible literally make a false idol of the Bible.

Here are some very serious questions: Can God lie? Would he purposefully mislead people? And if so to what purpose.
God cannot lie and He doesn’t, Jesus Christ is perfect, never sinned and no deceit found in His mouth.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
God cannot lie and He doesn’t, Jesus Christ is perfect, never sinned and no deceit found in His mouth.
Then certain events in Genesis never happened.

The Bible never tells you that it is literally true. Why would you believe that it is? If you understood the sciences you would see that YEC's and other such literalists are calling their God a liar.

The early Christian Geologists that first refuted the flood did not believe that God lied either. That is why they realized that the Flood of Noah never happened.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
God proved the Bible in my life and did for me what He said. He has been faithful to keep His promises to me that are written in the Bible.
And the odds are huge that all that is is confirmation bias. If something good happens it is God fulfilling his promises. If something bad happens you find someone else or something else to blame. Unless nothing bad at all has happened in your life it is very clear that confirmation bias is what is happening, not God replying to prayer.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God proved the Bible in my life and did for me what He said. He has been faithful to keep His promises to me that are written in the Bible.
Maybe that's true, but any religious person could say the same thing about their religious scriptures, so how does that prove that the Bible is any better than any other scriptures?

Also, what about other people who have adhered to the Bible but have not found that God has been faithful to them to keep His promises that are written in the Bible?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Videos are not evidence. And YouTube only removes harmful idiocy.

What evidence do you have for your claims?

EDIT: Edited to make clear that YouTube is the one only removes harmful idiocy.
You've seen the evidence and you've chosen to ignore it, that way you can always plead ignorance to defend your position
 
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