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Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

I see you are placing your interpretation at the same level of Christ and as such, make the same claim.

Thus I personally have a choice between all of the people that say they are giving the correct meaning of God's given scriptures.

Luckily Jesus also told us how to tell a True Prophet, so many that give their opinion on scripture, thinking they have any authority to do so, will fall way short of those requirements.

Regards Tony


I do not apply anything and I do not claim that I am only studying it
In the Bible, many are as misunderstood as a healthy foot
Acts 3: 7 He took him by the right hand and helped him to his feet; and the joints of the chrome were strengthened.
Acts 3: 8 He jumped to his feet, straightened up, and began to walk. He went into the temple with them, walked, leaped with joy, and praised God.
here the passage belongs to it
and as for the loaves he spoke of the leaven of the Pharisee
and if you think that god will not punish others like jews etc ... don't think that not to end up in a worse scenario i just said that there are several ways to calculate the date and that date one points to 2070 + - the other to 2017 (2018) and the third I forgot why do you think the sign happened?
Revelation 12: 1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
literally in heaven the sign was not on earth and in 2017 and is not written and will there be signs and various indications? so the prophet or jesus can already be here and stay somewhere here on earth or the prophet he is writing about there, but find out for yourself
for it is written
Daniel 12: 9 And he said, Go, Daniel, my words are mysterious and sealed till the time of the end.
isn't there a single letter that proves your prophet for the one to come to me because only one should have come and his name is written there and it was supposed to be Elias who will restore everything or am I wrong? and then should Christ come so that Elias will come first and restore everything right?
Isn't it the only word that supports the religion of the Bahai, for the prophecies also say, just like the serpents, that many different sects arise? and in the Bible are called prostitutes and prostitutes who went after another god, false

I know you have nothing to argue so you don't even have to try but the key will give you the first verse and the species in genesis there should be the key to unlock the book but watch out for the verses it also applies
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not apply anything and I do not claim that I am only studying it
In the Bible, many are as misunderstood as a healthy foot
Acts 3: 7 He took him by the right hand and helped him to his feet; and the joints of the chrome were strengthened.
Acts 3: 8 He jumped to his feet, straightened up, and began to walk. He went into the temple with them, walked, leaped with joy, and praised God.
here the passage belongs to it
and as for the loaves he spoke of the leaven of the Pharisee
and if you think that god will not punish others like jews etc ... don't think that not to end up in a worse scenario i just said that there are several ways to calculate the date and that date one points to 2070 + - the other to 2017 (2018) and the third I forgot why do you think the sign happened?
Revelation 12: 1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
literally in heaven the sign was not on earth and in 2017 and is not written and will there be signs and various indications? so the prophet or jesus can already be here and stay somewhere here on earth or the prophet he is writing about there, but find out for yourself
for it is written
Daniel 12: 9 And he said, Go, Daniel, my words are mysterious and sealed till the time of the end.
isn't there a single letter that proves your prophet for the one to come to me because only one should have come and his name is written there and it was supposed to be Elias who will restore everything or am I wrong? and then should Christ come so that Elias will come first and restore everything right?
Isn't it the only word that supports the religion of the Bahai, for the prophecies also say, just like the serpents, that many different sects arise? and in the Bible are called prostitutes and prostitutes who went after another god, false

I know you have nothing to argue so you don't even have to try but the key will give you the first verse and the species in genesis there should be the key to unlock the book but watch out for the verses it also applies

The Bible tells of Muhammad and the Bab who was the also the Elijah of this age, who prepared the way for Baha'u'llah.

You are right and I do not need to argue that.

Regards Tony
 
The Bible tells of Muhammad and the Bab who was the also the Elijah of this age, who prepared the way for Baha'u'llah.

You are right and I do not need to argue that.

Regards Tony

o Muhammad speaks of your prophet but not and the exact date there is approximately so here I tried to seal the books but your prophet is not there anywhere? what's wrong in the book of the Bible or in your prophets?

and please stop giving appreciation when you belong to the same religion to support your members
just discuss and if someone writes something, refute it with their own letter, but if it can not be refuted, you better not even answer and think about the letter of all religions
they wanted to deceive God but God deceived them in her own religion
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
o Muhammad speaks of your prophet but not and the exact date there is approximately so here I tried to seal the books but your prophet is not there anywhere? what's wrong in the book of the Bible or in your prophets?

and please stop giving appreciation when you belong to the same religion to support your members
just discuss and if someone writes something, refute it with their own letter, but if it can not be refuted, you better not even answer and think about the letter of all religions
they wanted to deceive God but God deceived them in her own religion

I will leave it all with you, I have offered all that I should.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
My question.

From SAQ...
In the beginning of the eleventh chapter of the Revelation of St. John it is said... “The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them”: 9 this beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muḥammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God.
10 —that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory—meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses—in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.
11 “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.​

Okay, are Hadiths considered to be the inerrant "Word of God"? Then, can you go over the prophecies of the Mahdi, of Jesus coming back and the 12th Imam again. And how you believe these were fulfilled by The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Thanks.
But revelation 11, is talking about the duration of religion of the two witnesses, which is 1260 days.
However, Bani Ummayeh, is a tribe, who was present at the time of Muhammad, and even immediately after passing of Muhammad, they claimed successorship.
By end of 1260 years, the Religion was renewed through manifestation of the Bab, so, the Bani Ummayeh did not have control over religion of God any longer. In Bahai view, there is only one Religion. The religion was under influence of the beast for 1260 years, but when the Bab came, He established the Religion again.
Bani Ummayeh had never have anything to do with Babi, or Bahai faith, even though they still lived on.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
But revelation 11, is talking about the duration of religion of the two witnesses, which is 1260 days.
However, Bani Ummayeh, is a tribe, who was present at the time of Muhammad, and even immediately after passing of Muhammad, they claimed successorship.
By end of 1260 years, the Religion was renewed through manifestation of the Bab, so, the Bani Ummayeh did not have control over religion of God any longer. In Bahai view, there is only one Religion. The religion was under influence of the beast for 1260 years, but when the Bab came, He established the Religion again.
Bani Ummayeh had never have anything to do with Babi, or Bahai faith, even though they still lived on.
The Bible tells of Muhammad and the Bab
Yes, in the Baha'i interpretation. So, let's look at Rev 11...
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”​
The Gentiles will trample the holy city for 42 months, which Baha'is change to 1260 lunar years. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days, changed to 1260 lunar years.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.​
The 3 1/2 days are changed to 1260 lunar years.

So, When did the Umayyad get control of Islam? It was not 621AD. When did they lose power? It was not 1844. If the two witnesses prophecy for 1260 years, how can they also be dead for 1260 years and how can the "beast" also be in power for those same 1260 years? Plus, the Gentiles are trampling Jerusalem for those same 1260 lunar years from 621 to 1844? A lot of creative manipulation of things to make it work. But if Baha'is believe it, then great. Whatever you need to do to convince yourself that prophecy has been fulfilled. But are you doing the same thing with the Mahdi, the 12th Imam, and the return of Jesus? It is a good enough explanation for Baha'is but, as with the other "fulfilled" prophecies, can you see how some people are skeptical?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Here Susan

"My major source of information is the book The Bahá'í Faith and Ahmadiyyat: A Comparative Analysis (دین بہائی اور احمدیت: ایک تقابلی جائزہ). This book is a work of apologia that was written in response to an Ahmedi magazine that published a series of articles targeting the Baha’i Faith. The relevant pages of the book from which the following historical information is extracted can be found here.

-- Sulaymán Khan Ilyas Tankabni, popularly known as Jamál Effendi, came to the Indian subcontinent on the instruction of Bahá'u'lláh. He spread the message of the Baha’i Faith from 1872-1898 in areas including the Indian subcontinent, Burma, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Turkey. Jamál Effendi had a comprehensive meeting with Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in which he gave Mirza Ghulam Ahmed the glad-tidings of the appearance of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. He also granted him with a trunk filled with Baha’i Writings for him to study them. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in his book Al-Balagh (also known as Faryad-e-Dard) mentions a detailed list of his academic studies where he also mentions The Bábi literature. Before claiming to be the Mehdi and the second coming of the Christ, he had read the Bábi and Baha’i literature. (Personal opinion: It is apparent that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed took help from the Bábi and Baha’i literature in trying to justify his later claims. It also gives me hints as to why some of the reformative teachings of Ahmadiyya Movement are similar to the Baha’i Writings for example the forbiddance of physical Jihad, ignoring for a moment that Ahmedis did not follow it faithfully. It is also of mention here that some views of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed were exactly in accordance with the conventionally held Islamic beliefs and later on they came in accordance with the Baha’I Faith. For example, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed first had the belief that Jesus Christ was taken up in the skies with his bodily existence and did not die on the cross. But, later on, when he made the claim to be the symbolic second coming of the Christ, he changed his view and brought it in alignment with the Baha’i view that Christ had died on the cross and that the second coming is spiritual and not physical.)

-- In the year 1900, Hakeem Noor-ud-Din, the Chief Secretary of Mirza Ghualm Ahmed, established a connection with Mirza Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpaygani through letters. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpaygani was in Cairo during that time. Hakeem Noor-ud-Din asked him complex religious questions to which Abu'l-Fadl responded in the form of a book (name mentioned on page 140 of the aforementioned source book).

-- In the year 1904, Mehmood Zarkani – a distinguished Baha’i scholar – welcomed Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (through a local Lahore newspaper) to arrange a public gathering whose audience should consist of thinkers and academics who are neither Baha’i nor Ahmedi. Both Mehmood Zarkani and Ghulam Ahmed would put forth their respective arguments and then the audience will decide whose arguments have more gravity. Ghulam Ahmed refused by saying that he is unable to do so because he is busy. His refusal is mentioned on the second page of his book Lecture Lahore (first published on 3rd September 1904). Mehmood Zarkani once again welcomed him for a public discussion but did not receive any response.

-- On 3rd September 1907, Syed Mustafa Rumi published an extensive article for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in a local newspaper of Lahore in which he argued that on one hand Ghulam Ahmed admits that The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh hold precedence of time over him and then moves on to claim that he himself is the first claimant of being the Mehdi and Christ without negating and refuting the claim of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. Moreover, in his book Al-Badar which was published on 1st August 1907, he himself describes his criterion for the truthfulness of a claimant of revelation and wrote that in the time of Muhammad there were many others who claimed to be Messengers but all of them made their claims after Muhammad did. Likewise, no one before me can say that he has claimed to the Messiah after receiving revelation from God. (By his own standard he is not the rightful claimant). Ghulam Ahmed did not respond to the article.

Ghulam Ahmed wrote more than 80 books and did not shy away from writing against anyone or any relevant religion (or even sects) except The Bábi and Baha’i Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is popular among his followers for his numerous live debates (locally known as munazra) during his lifetime. But he did not accept any invitation of any public discussion from Baha’i scholars in his entire lifespan. This silence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is suspicious to say the least.

The successors of Ghulam Ahmed say that Bahá'u'lláh claimed to be God (اہلویت) and therefore was not relevant to Ghulam Ahmed. According to them Ghulam Ahmed addressed the claimants of being Mehdi and Messiah and not those who claimed to be God. This is wrong on so many levels. First, Bahá'u'lláh did not claim to be God. Second, Ghulam Ahmed did address those who made the claim of being God. For instance, an Indian priest with the name Picket claimed to be God and Ghulam Ahmed addressed the claim of this priest in the 4rd February’s issue of the Sunday Circle London newspaper, 1903. Lastly, why was the claim of The Báb not addressed? Even Ahmadiyya authors admit that the claim of The Báb was of being Mehdi. At least, The Báb’s claim should have been addressed by Ghulam Ahmed given the fact that he admittedly even benefited from the Writings of The Báb."

https://www.reddit.com/r/ahmadiyya/comments/68sb70/dear_ahmadi_brothers_how_do_you_respond_to_these/

Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg " Baha’i view that Christ had died on the cross"

The Ahmadiyya view based on reasonable arguments is that "Jesus did not die on the Cross". Right, please?
#132
Regards
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Magenta^.
I get that they perhaps have been "commanded" never to be straightforwad. Right, please?

Regards
Unless Baha'u'llah or Abdul Baha said something specific, Baha'is are left with making things up to fill in the gaps. But then those "answers" are just the opinions and interpretations of individual Baha'is. And, in time, then will we have these "man-made" traditions come to be believed as being true? I think it's already happened.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So the hadiths about Jesus coming together with the Mahdi (and even praying together) are false? He does not seem to have had much impact for a world savior/redeemer? Most of the world's Muslims don't seem to believe in him? I think the prophesy said that after the Mahdi comes, everyone would become Muslim. Is that still going to happen?

Most of those who claim Mahdi has already come, also claim he is Jesus and Mahdi both. One person, both characters.

I would like to say that this is an ahadith based concept, but rather than going into argument over the validity of Mahdi and the second coming of Jesus, those who claim they have already come tend to cherry pick from a few ahadith but neglect a large number of them to propagate their theology. If you see, you would note this fact everyday. Also you would notice that most of these claimants have no scholarship in ahadith but they only know the one's quoted by their proponents themselves, and their websites. They dont have root knowledge. Most. Maybe not all, but I am yet to meet someone who has direct knowledge of all of this and not the knowledge gained by their apologetic websites.

Peace.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Unless Baha'u'llah or Abdul Baha said something specific, Baha'is are left with making things up to fill in the gaps. But then those "answers" are just the opinions and interpretations of individual Baha'is. And, in time, then will we have these "man-made" traditions come to be believed as being true? I think it's already happened.
The upper strata of the Bahaism people is already hidden from them behind the veil of "infallibility" only the "unfortunate" common/ordinary Bahais have been left outside, and they constantly fear excommunication. Right friend, please?

Regards
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Magenta^.
I get that they perhaps have been "commanded" never to be straightforwad. Right, please?

Regards
I went back and opened up this "spoiler" alert from Tony. Lots of words here, so I spaced out it sentence. Did you ever read through all this? And then he did another one in post 189 for Baha'u'llah.

The Báb, acclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Essence of Essences,” the “Sea of Seas,” the “Point round Whom the realities of the Prophets and Messengers revolve,” “from Whom God hath caused to proceed the knowledge of all that was and shall be,” Whose “rank excelleth that of all the Prophets,” and Whose “Revelation transcendeth the comprehension and understanding of all their chosen ones,” had delivered His Message and discharged His mission.

He Who was, in the words of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá, the “Morn of Truth” and “Harbinger of the Most Great Light,” Whose advent at once signalized the termination of the “Prophetic Cycle” and the inception of the “Cycle of Fulfillment,” had simultaneously through His Revelation banished the shades of night that had descended upon His country, and proclaimed the impending rise of that Incomparable Orb Whose radiance was to envelop the whole of mankind.

He, as affirmed by Himself, “the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things,” “one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God,” the “Mystic Fane,” the “Great Announcement,” the “Flame of that supernal Light that glowed upon Sinai,” the “Remembrance of God” concerning Whom “a separate Covenant hath been established with each and every Prophet” had, through His advent, at once fulfilled the promise of all ages and ushered in the consummation of all Revelations.

He the “Qá’im” (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí‘ahs, the “Mihdí” (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnís, the “Return of John the Baptist” expected by the Christians, the “Úshídar-Máh” referred to in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the “Return of Elijah” anticipated by the Jews, Whose Revelation was to show forth “the signs and tokens of all the Prophets”, Who was to “manifest the perfection of Moses, the radiance of Jesus and the patience of Job” had appeared, proclaimed His Cause, been mercilessly persecuted and died gloriously.

The “Second Woe,” spoken of in the Apocalypse of St. John the Divine, had, at long last, appeared, and the first of the two “Messengers,” Whose appearance had been prophesied in the Qur’án, had been sent down.

The first “Trumpet-Blast”, destined to smite the earth with extermination, announced in the latter Book, had finally been sounded. “The Inevitable,” “The Catastrophe,” “The Resurrection,” “The Earthquake of the Last Hour,” foretold by that same Book, had all come to pass.

The “clear tokens” had been “sent down,” and the “Spirit” had “breathed,” and the “souls” had “waked up,” and the “heaven” had been “cleft,” and the “angels” had “ranged in order,” and the “stars” had been “blotted out,” and the “earth” had “cast forth her burden,” and “Paradise” had been “brought near,” and “hell” had been “made to blaze,” and the “Book” had been “set,” and the “Bridge” had been “laid out,” and the “Balance” had been “set up,” and the “mountains scattered in dust.”

The “cleansing of the Sanctuary,” prophesied by Daniel and confirmed by Jesus Christ in His reference to “the abomination of desolation,” had been accomplished.

The “day whose length shall be a thousand years,” foretold by the Apostle of God in His Book, had terminated. The “forty and two months,” during which the “Holy City,” as predicted by St. John the Divine, would be trodden under foot, had elapsed.

The “time of the end” had been ushered in, and the first of the “two Witnesses” into Whom, “after three days and a half the Spirit of Life from God” would enter, had arisen and had “ascended up to heaven in a cloud.”

The “remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest,” according to Islamic tradition, out of the “twenty and seven letters” of which Knowledge has been declared to consist, had been revealed. The “Man Child,” mentioned in the Book of Revelation, destined to “rule all nations with a rod of iron,” had released, through His coming, the creative energies which, reinforced by the effusions of a swiftly succeeding and infinitely mightier Revelation, were to instill into the entire human race the capacity to achieve its organic unification, attain maturity and thereby reach the final stage in its age-long evolution.

The clarion-call addressed to the “concourse of kings and of the sons of kings,” marking the inception of a process which, accelerated by Bahá’u’lláh’s subsequent warnings to the entire company of the monarchs of East and West, was to produce so widespread a revolution in the fortunes of royalty, had been raised in the Qayyumú’l-Asmá’.

The “Order,” whose foundation the Promised One was to establish in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, and the features of which the Center of the Covenant was to delineate in His Testament, and whose administrative framework the entire body of His followers are now erecting, had been categorically announced in the Persian Bayán.
(God Passes By)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Didn't Bab also claim "to be the return of all the Prophets" , please?
Can one tell exactly:
  1. What claims did Bab make, please?
  2. What claims did Bahaullah make, please?
  3. What same claims did both of them make, please?
  1. Again, lots of words. One glaring thing is that it says that Baha'u'llah is the “Prince of this world”. But Christians say this is a reference to Satan. I'm sure you'll find lots of other problems with the claims that Baha'is are making here. But then, I don't think they really care. They believe this is the truth no matter what "problems" people find with it. But really, how many people read all of this word for word? I can't imagine what it would be like reading a whole book of things like this.
This is the other "spoiler" alert link that is about Baha'u'llah.
To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”; the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” to Shí‘ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

In the name He bore He combined those of the Imám Ḥusayn, the most illustrious of the successors of the Apostle of God—the brightest “star” shining in the “crown” mentioned in the Revelation of St. John—and of the Imám ‘Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, the second of the two “witnesses” extolled in that same Book. He was formally designated Bahá’u’lláh, an appellation specifically recorded in the Persian Bayán, signifying at once the glory, the light and the splendor of God, and was styled the “Lord of Lords,” the “Most Great Name,” the “Ancient Beauty,” the “Pen of the Most High,” the “Hidden Name,” the “Preserved Treasure,” “He Whom God will make manifest,” the “Most Great Light,” the “All-Highest Horizon,” the “Most Great Ocean,” the “Supreme Heaven,” the “Pre-Existent Root,” the “Self-Subsistent,” the “Day-Star of the Universe,” the “Great Announcement,” the “Speaker on Sinai,” the “Sifter of Men,” the “Wronged One of the World,” the “Desire of the Nations,” the “Lord of the Covenant,” the “Tree beyond which there is no passing.” He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sásáníyán dynasty. He was moreover a descendant of Jesse, and belonged, through His father, Mírzá ‘Abbás, better known as Mírzá Buzurg—a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fatḥ-‘Alí Sháh—to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mázindarán.

To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,” the “Everlasting Father,” the “Prince of Peace,” the “Wonderful,” the “Counsellor,” the “Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse” and the “Branch grown out of His roots,” Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,” Who “will come with strong hand,” Who “shall judge among the nations,” Who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked,” and Who “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the “Lord of Hosts” and the “King of Glory.” To Him Haggai had referred as the “Desire of all nations,” and Zachariah as the “Branch” Who “shall grow up out of His place,” and “shall build the Temple of the Lord.” Zachariah had extolled Him as the “Lord” Who “shall be king over all the earth,” while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the “day of Jehovah,” the latter describing it as “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.” His Day Ezekiel and Daniel had, moreover, both acclaimed as the “day of the Lord,” and Malachi described as “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” when “the Sun of Righteousness” will “arise, with healing in His wings,” whilst Daniel had pronounced His advent as signalizing the end of the “abomination that maketh desolate.”

To His Dispensation the sacred books of the followers of Zoroaster had referred as that in which the sun must needs be brought to a standstill for no less than one whole month. To Him Zoroaster must have alluded when, according to tradition, He foretold that a period of three thousand years of conflict and contention must needs precede the advent of the World-Savior Sháh-Bahrám, Who would triumph over Ahriman and usher in an era of blessedness and peace.

He alone is meant by the prophecy attributed to Gautama Buddha Himself, that “a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship” should, in the fullness of time, arise and reveal “His boundless glory.” To Him the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus had referred as the “Most Great Spirit,” the “Tenth Avatar,” the “Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna.”

To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.”

To Him Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, had alluded in His Book as the “Great Announcement,” and declared His Day to be the Day whereon “God” will “come down” “overshadowed with clouds,” the Day whereon “thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank,” and “The Spirit shall arise and the angels shall be ranged in order.” His advent He, in that Book, in a súrih said to have been termed by Him “the heart of the Qur’án,” had foreshadowed as that of the “third” Messenger, sent down to “strengthen” the two who preceded Him. To His Day He, in the pages of that same Book, had paid a glowing tribute, glorifying it as the “Great Day,” the “Last Day,” the “Day of God,” the “Day of Judgment,” the “Day of Reckoning,” the “Day of Mutual Deceit,” the “Day of Severing,” the “Day of Sighing,” the “Day of Meeting,” the Day “when the Decree shall be accomplished,” the Day whereon the second “Trumpet blast” will be sounded, the “Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the world,” and “all shall come to Him in humble guise,” the Day when “thou shalt see the mountains, which thou thinkest so firm, pass away with the passing of a cloud,” the Day “wherein account shall be taken,” “the approaching Day, when men’s hearts shall rise up, choking them, into their throats,” the Day when “all that are in the heavens and all that are on the earth shall be terror-stricken, save him whom God pleaseth to deliver,” the Day whereon “every suckling woman shall forsake her sucking babe, and every woman that hath a burden in her womb shall cast her burden,” the Day “when the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord, and the Book shall be set, and the Prophets shall be brought up, and the witnesses; and judgment shall be given between them with equity; and none shall be wronged.”

The plenitude of His glory the Apostle of God had, moreover, as attested by Bahá’u’lláh Himself, compared to the “full moon on its fourteenth night.” His station the Imám ‘Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, had, according to the same testimony, identified with “Him Who conversed with Moses from the Burning Bush on Sinai.” To the transcendent character of His mission the Imám Ḥusayn had, again according to Bahá’u’lláh, borne witness as a “Revelation whose Revealer will be He Who revealed” the Apostle of God Himself.

About Him Shaykh Aḥmad-i-Aḥsá’í, the herald of the Bábí Dispensation, who had foreshadowed the “strange happenings” that would transpire “between the years sixty and sixty-seven,” and had categorically affirmed the inevitability of His Revelation had, as previously mentioned, written the following: “The Mystery of this Cause must needs be made manifest, and the Secret of this Message must needs be divulged. I can say no more, I can appoint no time. His Cause will be made known after Ḥín (68)” (i.e., after a while).

Siyyid Káẓim-i-Rashtí, Shaykh Aḥmad’s disciple and successor, had likewise written: “The Qá’im must needs be put to death. After He has been slain the world will have attained the age of eighteen.” In his Sharḥ-i-Qaṣídiy-i-Lámíyyíh he had even alluded to the name “Bahá.” Furthermore, to his disciples, as his days drew to a close, he had significantly declared: “Verily, I say, after the Qá’im the Qayyúm will be made manifest. For when the star of the former has set the sun of the beauty of Ḥusayn will rise and illuminate the whole world. Then will be unfolded in all its glory the ‘Mystery’ and the ‘Secret’ spoken of by Shaykh Aḥmad.… To have attained unto that Day of Days is to have attained unto the crowning glory of past generations, and one goodly deed performed in that age is equal to the pious worship of countless centuries.”[/QUOTE]
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The upper strata of the Bahaism people is already hidden from them behind the veil of "infallibility" only the "unfortunate" common/ordinary Bahais have been left outside, and they constantly fear excommunication. Right friend, please?

Regards
I know the common Baha'i, especially in the U.S. in the 70's, were attracted to the Baha'i Faith because they stood for peace, equality between men and women and the abolishment of racism. I agree with all those things. But then, because it is a religion, there are lots of other things that must be believed. There are several contradictions between the beliefs of all the different religions. Baha'is then have to find a way to explain away those contradictions. Same thing with the prophecies of the different religions... who's going to come and when and where? For Christians does Jesus return to Iran? How about with Islam? Where does Jesus return to? For Jews does their Messiah come to them from Iran or from Jerusalem? Baha'is have their "mystical", "symbolic" interpretations that make all the details unimportant. They will say that those things had a "spiritual" meaning and fulfillment and were never meant to be taken as literal. How can a person argue against that? They make prophecies say whatever they need them to say. And, of course, their interpretation is the correct one. No matter what other people say.

Oh, is the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar the year prophesied for the return of Christ? But then, again, it was the year the Bab came as the return of "Elijah" not as "Jesus". But that's a minor detail.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Most of those who claim Mahdi has already come, also claim he is Jesus and Mahdi both. One person, both characters.

I would like to say that this is an ahadith based concept, but rather than going into argument over the validity of Mahdi and the second coming of Jesus, those who claim they have already come tend to cherry pick from a few ahadith but neglect a large number of them to propagate their theology. If you see, you would note this fact everyday. Also you would notice that most of these claimants have no scholarship in ahadith but they only know the one's quoted by their proponents themselves, and their websites. They dont have root knowledge. Most. Maybe not all, but I am yet to meet someone who has direct knowledge of all of this and not the knowledge gained by their apologetic websites.

Peace.
Bab and Bahaullah, I get for one, only quoted the Shia Ahadith and their claims were from that point of view.
I was suggested to read Kitab-i-Iqan and I read it in the original Farsi and its translations in Arabic and English. Bahaullah quoted many Ahadith but neither he provided the reference of such Ahadith nor the translators. Since one seems to be well-versed in Shia Ahadith, can one check the validity of them and provide references of such Ahadith, please? Right, please?
A side note:
Bahaullah left Islam and he did not claim to be a Bahai, please. Right, please?

Regards
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes, in the Baha'i interpretation. So, let's look at Rev 11...
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”​
The Gentiles will trample the holy city for 42 months, which Baha'is change to 1260 lunar years. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days, changed to 1260 lunar years.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.​
The 3 1/2 days are changed to 1260 lunar years.

So, When did the Umayyad get control of Islam? It was not 621AD. When did they lose power? It was not 1844. If the two witnesses prophecy for 1260 years, how can they also be dead for 1260 years and how can the "beast" also be in power for those same 1260 years? Plus, the Gentiles are trampling Jerusalem for those same 1260 lunar years from 621 to 1844? A lot of creative manipulation of things to make it work. But if Baha'is believe it, then great. Whatever you need to do to convince yourself that prophecy has been fulfilled. But are you doing the same thing with the Mahdi, the 12th Imam, and the return of Jesus? It is a good enough explanation for Baha'is but, as with the other "fulfilled" prophecies, can you see how some people are skeptical?
Does the Bible say, the beast lives for 1260 days, 3.5 days, or 42 months?
I am just trying to understand where you see the inconsistencies in Bahai interpretation.

As regards to gentiles, according to the Bible, the Jerusalem would be given to gentiles for 1260 days.
It started from the first year in Islamic Calendar, until 1260 years later.
It does not mean that there would not be a single gentiles in Jerusalem after 1844. But since Islamic dispensation ended with manifestation of the Bab in the year 1844, and in the same year we see, according to history Jerusalem started to become more populated with Jews, we see this as a fulfillment of this prophecy.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, in the Baha'i interpretation. So, let's look at Rev 11...
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”​
The Gentiles will trample the holy city for 42 months, which Baha'is change to 1260 lunar years. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days, changed to 1260 lunar years.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.​
The 3 1/2 days are changed to 1260 lunar years.

So, When did the Umayyad get control of Islam? It was not 621AD. When did they lose power? It was not 1844. If the two witnesses prophecy for 1260 years, how can they also be dead for 1260 years and how can the "beast" also be in power for those same 1260 years? Plus, the Gentiles are trampling Jerusalem for those same 1260 lunar years from 621 to 1844? A lot of creative manipulation of things to make it work. But if Baha'is believe it, then great. Whatever you need to do to convince yourself that prophecy has been fulfilled. But are you doing the same thing with the Mahdi, the 12th Imam, and the return of Jesus? It is a good enough explanation for Baha'is but, as with the other "fulfilled" prophecies, can you see how some people are skeptical?

Good morning CG.

The prophecy is basically saying that there is a faith that lasts for 1260 years.

Thus in AD1844, which is also AH1260, the Bab abrogates Islam with the proclamation of a New Message from God. Amazing, the Bible foretold of the Islam Calendar. Using different prophecies, some Christians were waiting for Christ to return in AD1844.

The Dead Body.

Islam was built on a broken Covenant, when Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was to be the appointed successor to Muhammad as the head of the community, was pushed aside by those claiming He was too young. (Sunni Line)

Even though Islam was still able to prosper in the Message given by Muhammad, it was spiritually dead. A faith with Laws without spirit (Much the same as Jewish Faith, thus Old Cloths). The Baha'i Writings explain this in much detail. Shia Islam was built on the knowing the Covenant was broken and the Sunni line was in error.

Muhammad also gave this division in Prophecy, with a saying all Muslims use.... . "There is no God, but God"..... This was a God given play on words, where the Negation becomes before the Affirmation, confirming the Bible passage about the dead body of Islam.

"There is no God" (Negation), "But God" (Affirmation). There is much written on this.

Big topic CG, each day we miss more opportunity to pursue all that we can be.

I wish for you all happiness and Faith.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Okay, are Hadiths considered to be the inerrant "Word of God"? Then, can you go over the prophecies of the Mahdi, of Jesus coming back and the 12th Imam again. And how you believe these were fulfilled by The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

There are much more than a 1000 hadithes regarding the Mahdi, 12th Imam, the Qaim, the return of Christ, which are found in both Sunni and Shia sources. Shia Hadithes uses terms such as the Qaim, the Mahdi, the return of Imam Hussein. Sunni Hadithes uses terms such as the Mahdi, and return of Christ.

But to the best of my knowledge all of them are fulfilled.
In Bahai theology, these prophecies are about two persons, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Some of The hadithes may not have been preserved perfectly accurate, but they originated from the Prophet, and its knowledge had come from God, in Bahai view. There could be a small number of incorrect hadithes, but as far as we are talking about prophecies of The Mahdi, or Qaim, or return of Christ, I have not seen anything that does not fit with Bahai revelation or theology.

I cannot quote thousands of hadithes here, but if you found a hadith that you think it is not fulfilled or it is incompatible with Bahai Faith, quote it, and we look at it.
You know, in Bahai view, the Hadithes also contain symbols, many of them are figurative, and have a hidden meaning. Not all hadithes are to be taken literally.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg " Baha’i view that Christ had died on the cross"

The Ahmadiyya view based on reasonable arguments is that "Jesus did not die on the Cross". Right, please?
#132
Regards

That is OK Paarsurrey, you are free to see it that way.

Likewise Baha'u'llah has given much on this topic, that is more intune with science.

Regards Tony
 
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