Colt
Well-Known Member
Just that Michael is referenced in Revelation and the Son was on the earth.
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WHY I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS GOD
- Thread starter mmarco
- Start date
Colt
Well-Known Member
Y
You are hiding behind demands for proof concerning a God which you can only find yourself.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Nope. Not buying it. You should stop saying things you have absolutely no valid basis to be stating. It is my honest, "heartfelt" opinion that you should be embarrassed for yourself.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Yes. Michael was somewhere else, while the so called Son born to that woman. Then how could those two be the same person?
Colt
Well-Known Member
The Book of Revelation is jumbled up. The son born to the women could be a reference to the birth of Jesus.
Colt
Well-Known Member
T
Not selling anything.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Only cause it ain't being bought...
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you'd like to believe that. The evidence displays otherwise. You're extremely intent on getting me to accept your ideas. You are proffering your ideas to me, but I want nothing to do with them - yet you keep trying to explain their finer features, and how it would just be better for me if I would just give in and begin believing as you do. These are things akin to what a salesman does to try and "set the hook."
And I truly believe the currency you're after is respect and validation. Well you aren't getting it on my dime. My currency in those items is limited to things that deserve it.
Colt
Well-Known Member
You are imagining that I'm intent on convincing you, I've put very little effort into it other than to concede that you will need to find God on your own. Atheist who join religious forums to heckle religious people are unreachable.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I understand that. But if you read that episode about Michael, it is a cosmic event where the dragon is thrown down, and they were thrown down to earth. So if Jesus was born on earth to Mary and that's event concerned here with the woman, how could both be the same person?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Thrown down means defeated but since the BOR didn't survive intact we can only speculate about what's there. The Urantia revelation gives us a lot more clarity about what's there.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Sure thing champ.
firedragon
Veteran Member
My question was different, your answer is irrelevant.
I presume if you read my question again you would probably understand what it is. I just am looking for a reconciliation.
Thanks in advance.
Colt
Well-Known Member
The narrative is a panorama of time. The context of the term heaven and earth is combining the two realms of spirit and matter all playing out with the times of the incarnation of the Son on our world as the focal point.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Is there any biblical evidence for that? Is there any text that says "The narrative is a panorama of time. The context of the term heaven and earth is combining the two realms of spirit" or anything similar to that?
Wrangler
Ask And You Will Receive
Only in the same way that all of Creation is a part of God.
A problem with trinitarianism is language. X of Y, means X is not Y. To say Hunter Biden is the son of Joe Biden is not day Hunter is not Joe.
To say Hunter is part of Joe is true but not in the coequal, coeternal, co-substantial way trinitarians want it to mean. Indeed, language: Father. Son. Not the same. Not equal, etc.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
It's a lot simpler than that in a way: It's a lot like children and a Parent, where the Parent really does allow you to be truly autonomous, and choose whether to relate with Him, though if some group starts doing too extreme an evil He did at times intervene to stop the ongoing evil, such as child sacrifice for instance, in a forceful total way, just as a Parent would do, ideally, and then all of those removed are given a 2nd chance actually, we learn later.
So, you are dealing with a Parent who is frankly far more mature than you or me.
So that while we are tempted to interfere too much or over parent or under parent, etc., He is....more even, patient, complete. More open to possibility. More allowing you to truly live your own life.
More allowing you to be saved from bad situations if you truly ask for help, but never imposing it on you.
It's a higher level of parenting than we are used to from our own mortal parents.
And...He lets you choose to go off into total evil or distrust or other choice you might choose, and still have this life, here, for now, temporarily.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Yes, the narrative in question does it. The women is both in heaven and on earth.
In heaven:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
In heaven:
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: Dragon is on the earth:------>and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Women is on earth:
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rebellion begins in heaven:
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19Behold, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy. Nothing will harm you. 20Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
Discussions about it in heaven:
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Colt
Well-Known Member
The Trinity is fixed in its eternal place, Jesus the Creator Son is a creation of the Trinity. But they are all indistinguishable unified in spirit. We can only know them as One.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Where does it say that the woman was on earth?
As far as I know, ereemon means an empty, desolate, uninhabited land. Thats not referring to earth. One can never mean "earth". Also, even if you wish this desert to be earth, yet, this is after the birth of her child. The birth takes place in heaven. If this child is Jesus, the war in heaven occurs. How could Michael in this war with all his angels fighting with this dragon with all his angels be the same child? It says "Kai", which means it is concurrent or immediate events.
With all of this, how could this Michael and Jesus be the same person?