Mormons: What Don't You Accept?

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
On the contrary, it has everything to do with the Bible, which is one the primary elements of the Apostolic Deposit given to us by God. If all Bibles were damaged or destroyed, then part of God's Word to us would be lost, by definition, since the Bible is God's Word. Yes, the truths of God's Word will never pass away, that's self-evident and axiomatic in a Christian context. However, God has given us certain concrete forms of His Word which we have been given to protect...the promise to always be with us, guide into all truth, never let His words pass away, are for our benefit, not His. He was speaking to us when He said those things, with the knowledge that His words existed in concrete form on Earth. The promise to protect His words can only be understood in that way.

That's where we are going to have to disagree. The Bible is not God's Word - it is a written record of God's Word. Simple as that.

BTW - you say the Bible was given to us to protect, and then in the next breath say that God will never allow anything to happen to it. What, in your mind, are we (i.e. the Church) protecting it from?

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
If you would provide the verses you are refering to I can better address them.

Sure, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:18-19, John 16:13-15, Matthew 28:20, etc etc etc

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
That's where we are going to have to disagree. The Bible is not God's Word - it is a written record of God's Word. Simple as that.

So then God's promises to protect His Word are really nothing more than axiomatic truths with no real world applicability...even now the Church may be led astray in Earthly form so long as God Himself is always true, even though the Earthly institution that He established specifically to maintain His truths has gone astray...

BTW - you say the Bible was given to us to protect, and then in the next breath say that God will never allow anything to happen to it. What, in your mind, are we (i.e. the Church) protecting it from?

Corruption, Heresy, False interpretation, etc. God has promised us that He will guide the Church into all truth, never into heresy...a corruption of God's words in the Bible, leading to false interpretations, etc etc are promised not to occur by Christ.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
Sure, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:18-19, John 16:13-15, Matthew 28:20, etc etc etc

1 Tim 3:15 - interestingly enough, this is one that is different in the Joseph Smith Translation:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God.
16 The pillar and ground of the truth is (and without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness,) God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice, here, the "pillar and ground of truth" is Christ, not the Church. Take that for whatever it's worth to you (probably not much).

Matt 16: 18-19 - Katz went over this in another thread. I think I've already posted a link to it. If not, I can find it again.

John 16: 3-9 - I have no problem whatsoever there.

Matt 28: 20 - I do believe Christ was with the Apostles (and still is, for that matter) until "the end"

etc etc etc - Not sure where to find that one

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
So then God's promises to protect His Word are really nothing more than axiomatic truths with no real world applicability...even now the Church may be led astray in Earthly form so long as God Himself is always true, even though the Earthly institution that He established specifically to maintain His truths has gone astray...

And if it were, God's word would still not pass away

Corruption, Heresy, False interpretation, etc. God has promised us that He will guide the Church into all truth, never into heresy...a corruption of God's words in the Bible, leading to false interpretations, etc etc are promised not to occur by Christ.

My question was actually about your word usage. You said the Church is given the responsibility to protect the scriptures, then say that, essentially, it is impossible for them to fail in that responsibility. Doesn't sound like the Church is actually doing any protecting.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
Matt 28: 20 - I do believe Christ was with the Apostles (and still is, for that matter) until "the end"

Also, like I've said, I believe that there have been individuals throughout the period of the Apostacy that were being led by the Spirit. I just don't believe the Church (Eastern or Western) was.

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
1 Tim 3:15 - interestingly enough, this is one that is different in the Joseph Smith Translation:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God.
16 The pillar and ground of the truth is (and without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness,) God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice, here, the "pillar and ground of truth" is Christ, not the Church. Take that for whatever it's worth to you (probably not much).

Since that translation is not supported by the Greek nor historic interpretation, I'm guessing you're right.

Matt 16: 18-19 - Katz went over this in another thread. I think I've already posted a link to it. If not, I can find it again.

And I'm rpetty sure I was involved in that debate, was I not? We can double check, and if not I can respond here.

John 16: 3-9 - I have no problem whatsoever there.

Being guided into all truth leaves no room for guidance into heresy.

Matt 28: 20 - I do believe Christ was with the Apostles (and still is, for that matter) until "the end"

So you don't believe this promise has any universal application at all to the Church that the Apostles were the foundation of? Christ's words in the Gospels apply only to those He was directly speaking to, and have no further meaning?

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
Also, like I've said, I believe that there have been individuals throughout the period of the Apostacy that were being led by the Spirit. I just don't believe the Church (Eastern or Western) was.

I'm not sure how you can interpret that promise as being individual there; He wasn't speaking to an individual, but rather a group, which formed the foundation of the institution which He specifically set up to combat heresy and apostasy.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
Since that translation is not supported by the Greek nor historic interpretation, I'm guessing you're right.

Figured as much

Being guided into all truth leaves no room for guidance into heresy.

Heresy can still come when you reject the guidance though

So you don't believe this promise has any universal application at all to the Church that the Apostles were the foundation of? Christ's words in the Gospels apply only to those He was directly speaking to, and have no further meaning?

I believe he was talking to individuals. The promiss is made to any individual that wants it.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
I'm not sure how you can interpret that promise as being individual there; He wasn't speaking to an individual, but rather a group, which formed the foundation of the institution which He specifically set up to combat heresy and apostasy.

He was speaking to 11 individuals. He was also speaking to a group that kept the church on the right path the best they could while they were alive. It was after this group was gone that things really started going south.

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
Figured as much

Well I don't know how you expected anything different...you should probably know that when you confront me with a verse or translation, I'm going to look at context, the original language, and past precedent of interpretation; that's just Biblical Exegesis 101. When something doesn't jive with those elements (such as the odd translation given by Smith), I tend to reject it.

Heresy can still come when you reject the guidance though

The passage says nothing about rejecting the guidance...it says the Holy Spirit WILL guide into all truth; there is no question. Such assurance leaves no room for heresy.

I believe he was talking to individuals. The promiss is made to any individual that wants it

In one sense I buy it, but I think the institutional application of the verse is undeniable in context as well.

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
He was speaking to 11 individuals. He was also speaking to a group that kept the church on the right path the best they could while they were alive. It was after this group was gone that things really started going south.

Christ's promises are eternal; those 11 individuals certainly didn't seem too worried based on what we know of their writings; they set up the Church to continue quite swimmingly once they were gone.

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
My question was actually about your word usage. You said the Church is given the responsibility to protect the scriptures, then say that, essentially, it is impossible for them to fail in that responsibility. Doesn't sound like the Church is actually doing any protecting.

Oh, I think you're mistaken there. People have tried and still do try, but the point is that through the guidance of Christ in the Church they will never ultimately succeed.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
Christ's promises are eternal; those 11 individuals certainly didn't seem too worried based on what we know of their writings; they set up the Church to continue quite swimmingly once they were gone.

Is that why they were constantly warning about wolves entering the flock, there being a falling away, etc?

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
The passage says nothing about rejecting the guidance...it says the Holy Spirit WILL guide into all truth; there is no question. Such assurance leaves no room for heresy.

The Holy Spirit will GUIDE to all truth - no force there. If we, or the Church leadership, decide not to follow that guidance, we won't get to "all truth".

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
Is that why they were constantly warning about wolves entering the flock, there being a falling away, etc?

If they were constantly warning against it, and telling the churches exactly how to avoid it and combat it, that's much better evidence that the Church guards against heresy than succumbs to it.

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
The Holy Spirit will GUIDE to all truth - no force there. If we, or the Church leadership, decide not to follow that guidance, we won't get to "all truth".

Again, no condition is mentioned, no matter how you may try to parse the words....it is a prophecy, a promise. The Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth...nothing is mentioned about heresy, which is the antithesis of all truth promised to the Church.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
Again, no condition is mentioned, no matter how you may try to parse the words....it is a prophecy, a promise. The Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth...nothing is mentioned about heresy, which is the antithesis of all truth promised to the Church.

Again, the Church is not mentioned. He was talking to individuals.

FerventGodSeeker · Jan 8, 2007

SoyLeche said:
Again, the Church is not mentioned. He was talking to individuals.

And truly again, claiming that this promise has no universal application for the whole Church is nothing short of ridiculous. You yourself said that the Holy Spirit does guide the Church into all truth; you cannot have your cake and eat it too, sorry.

SoyLeche · Jan 8, 2007

FerventGodSeeker said:
And truly again, claiming that this promise has no universal application for the whole Church is nothing short of ridiculous. You yourself said that the Holy Spirit does guide the Church into all truth; you cannot have your cake and eat it too, sorry.

The church is made up of individuals.

Personally, I believe that the leaders of the Church are being led by the Spirit. I just don't think it's the same church you do.

I also believe that it is possible for the leadership of my church to go astray. Members of said leadership have strayed in the past, and others will probably do so in the future. I don't anticipate it happening anytime soon, but it could. Luckily, I have the promiss personally that the Spirit will lead me to all truth, so hopefully I will be able to recognize that if it ever happens.

Mormons: What Don't You Accept?

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