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Are the gospels reliable historical documents? // YES

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Josephus was a reporter, not a witness. He reported what he heard being discussed on the streets.
Exactly. I didn't want to get into that with leroy because he'd talk my ear off defending Josephus. This is his thread so he's trying to keep it going as long as he can. But true, Josephus in 96 CE would only have heard scuttlebutt circulating the Mediterranean, all of it hearsay. Of course he jotted down the rumors and we are where we are today, with only one "authentic" mention of Jesus going into the 2nd century 70 years after the supposed facts. Mighty fine "evidence" for Jesus' existence.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The Josephus reference to James seems to be authentic but that's a sliver to hang the authenticity of all 4 gospels on. I can't do it, leroy. Sorry.
If the gospels got the name of James correct, why not giving them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the other names of the other 3 brothers are also correct?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If the gospels got the name of James correct, why not giving them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the other names of the other 3 brothers are also correct?
Josephus wrote about what early Christians believed. So that is not really "getting it right'.

And the entire "James the brother of Jesus" passage is now thought to be added after the fact by another author:

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
In my opinion and the opinion of many scholars, Mark was referencing the Old Testament particularly psalm 22 in order to give credence to his Christ tale by making it appear that Jesus was fulfilling Ot prophecy. But it's the old "Which came first, the chicken or the egg" problem: was Jesus actually fulfilling OT prophecy OR were the gospel writers just fashioning OT prosaic scriptures into literal events to make it appear Jesus was fulfilling prophecies? It's quite simple for a fiction writer to grab a line like "Why have you forsaken me" out of something written centuries earlier and then put it in the mouth of your main character as he hangs on a cross and say, "See! jesus said the same words as David in Psalm 22. Jesus is fulfilling David's prophecy" even though the psalm was never meant to be prophetic.

Excellent response, by the way.
Many of the prophecies were likely written to appear to be fulfilled. The author of Mark was highly educated in myth storytelling and definitely used the OT narratives so using prophecies is extremely likely. Jesus is being portrayed as the new Moses and the religion is being taken into the "modern world" where savior gods were more popular and the temple ritual can be replaced.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Fulfilled Prophecies are too good to be true, historians know this , which is why we most be skeptical about those particular events……….. but so what?

It is still a historical fact that:

1 Jesus Existed

2 Did stuff that some interpreted as miracles

3 Was crucified and buried

4 He claimed to be divine , he claimed to have a special relationship with God

5 He had disciples

6 traveled around various towns in Palestine

7 was baptized by John the Baptist.

8 had brothers


Etc.

Only fact one could be a fact. There may have been a man named Jesus teaching religion. But historians are debating this right now.
I know of no biblical historian that believes the gospel Jesus is historical.
As PhD Carrier says:

"
When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.
No. We aren’t interested in that."

The rest are all stories from the gospels which in the last 3 posts I gave evidence that the information was copied /sourced from Mark.
Mark is writing fiction. He uses several literary mythic styles and transforms OT narratives from Psalms and Kings as well as a Jesus Ben Anneus story. It's also full of highly improbable events and fictional biographies using parables and religious/political messages were popular among Greek writers of that time.
So these are demonstrably fiction and outside sources are needed to confirm any events.
From a historical-critical perspective, whenever there are elements of myth found in a story, the rest of the story can no longer be used as reliable historical evidence (concerning any of the more plausible events found within the same story), due to the principle of contamination

"Nowhere in the Gospels do they ever name their sources of information, nor do they read as eye witness testimonies (nor do they identify themselves as such), nor is it mentioned why any sources used would be accurate to rely upon. The authors never discuss any historical method used, nor do they acknowledge how some contents may be less accurate than others, nor do they mention alternate possibilities of the events given the limited information they had from their sources. They never express amazement or any degree of rational skepticism no matter how implausible an event within the story may be — something we would expect from any rational historian (even one living in antiquity). The authors never explain why they changed what their sources said, nor do they even acknowledge that they did such a thing in the first place — despite the fact that Matthew and Luke clearly relied on Mark as a source (as did John, though less obviously so), for example, and then they all redacted Mark’s version as needed to serve their own literary and theological purposes (which explains some of the contradictions found between one Gospel and another). Instead, the Gospels appear to be fictional historical biographies, likely written by specially interested Christians whose intent was to edify Jesus, just like many other fictional historical biographies that were made for various heroes and sages in antiquity. In fact, all students of literary Greek (the authors of the Gospels wrote their manuscripts in literary Greek), commonly used this fictional biographical technique as a popular rhetorical device — where they were taught to invent narratives about famous and legendary people, as well as to build a symbolic or moral message within it, and where they were taught to make changes to traditional stories in order to make whatever point they desired within their own stories."
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If the gospels claimed that Jesus had a brother named James, and we can verify that and confirm that it is true, why not trusting the gosples when they say that he had other brothers (Joseph Simon and Judas)?


They do not say Jesus had a biologcal brother for sure. It's also likely he was being called a "brother in the lord". Paul later uses the Greek word for biological brother and it's not the same word. At best we cannot tell.

"So it’s just as likely, if not more so, that Paul means he met only the apostle Peter and only one other Judean Christian, a certain ‘brother James’. By calling him a brother of the Lord instead of an apostle, Paul is thus distinguishing this James from any apostles of the same name—just as we saw he used ‘brothers of the Lord’ to distinguish regular Christians from apostles in 1 Cor. 9.5. Indeed, this would explain his rare use of the complete phrase in only those two places: he otherwise uses the truncated ‘brother’ of his fellow Christians; yet every time he specifically distinguishes apostles from non-apostolic Christians he uses the full title for a member of the Christian congregation, ‘brother of the Lord’. This would be especially necessary to distinguish in such contexts ‘brothers of the apostles’ (which would include kin who were not believers) from ‘brothers of the Lord’, which also explains why he doesn’t truncate the phrase in precisely those two places.

The full argument is here:
Ehrman and James the Brother of the Lord • Richard Carrier
You may not care about that debate but the point is we cannot confirm or verify that Jesus had a brother because it's equally possible he was being called a "brother in the Lord". Carrier is making his argument based on all of Paul's original Greek writings.

Although in his recent Jesus historicity study (the most recent done since 1926 by an actual Doctrate in NT history) Carrier still counts this in favor of historicity (Jesus was an actual religious teacher). But he still ends with 3-1 in favor of mythicism which surprised him as well. He realized that the assumptions historians have been making about Jesus didn't hold up to actually checking facts
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Because there's no outside sources unsullied by church influence to corroborate these accounts.
Again you are being unrealistically too skeptic. By your logic, we can’t know when/where was Alexander the Great born because we don’t have any non-greek sources to corroborate that information.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The Josephus reference to James seems to be authentic but that's a sliver to hang the authenticity of all 4 gospels on. I can't do it, leroy. Sorry.

again if the authors of the gospels got most of the verifiable details correct, why not giving them the benefit of the doubt with the rest fo the details?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
But these premises have been debunked. As I said, you're ignoring others' explanatory posts.
These aren't first person sources, nor have they been corroborated by disinterested third parties. Their claims are, at best, hearsay -- as has been explained to you.

What does this have to do with the reliability of the Gospels? You're presuming they got one brother right. You're presuming they got Jesus right. The source itself is questionable, why would genealogical conclusions based on it be less so?
Interpretations based on apocryphal sources are, themselves, apocryphal.
No, we can't. We can't assume anything. You haven't been reading the posts. You're still accepting the Jesus folklore as axiomatic. Any conclusions drawn from questionable premises are, themselves, questionable.
We know nothing for sure of who Jesus was or what he/they did. It's folklore all the way down.
And these premises have been debunked. Read the posts!
We're questioning your premises. Why do you keep assuming we'd accept any conclusions based on them, however logical?
Defend your premises first, then propose corollaries.
It's been shown you. Sources have been cited. You choose to ignore them.
PLEASE -- stop it. Stop pretending you haven't been given the evidence. READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS!

But these premises have been debunked. As I said, you're ignoring others' explanatory posts.

Then it becomes inexplicable why is it that you are unable to quote any of my claims + the supposed refutation.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Josephus was a reporter, not a witness. He reported what he heard being discussed on the streets.


So what? Should we drop all Josephus work just because he didn’t witness any of the events that he reports in his documents?............it is another case where this rule* only applies with statements that contradict you personally don’t like.,
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Only fact one could be a fact. There may have been a man named Jesus teaching religion. But historians are debating this right now.
I know of no biblical historian that believes the gospel Jesus is historical.
As PhD Carrier says:

"
When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.
No. We aren’t interested in that."

The rest are all stories from the gospels which in the last 3 posts I gave evidence that the information was copied /sourced from Mark.
Mark is writing fiction. He uses several literary mythic styles and transforms OT narratives from Psalms and Kings as well as a Jesus Ben Anneus story. It's also full of highly improbable events and fictional biographies using parables and religious/political messages were popular among Greek writers of that time.
So these are demonstrably fiction and outside sources are needed to confirm any events.
From a historical-critical perspective, whenever there are elements of myth found in a story, the rest of the story can no longer be used as reliable historical evidence (concerning any of the more plausible events found within the same story), due to the principle of contamination

"Nowhere in the Gospels do they ever name their sources of information, nor do they read as eye witness testimonies (nor do they identify themselves as such), nor is it mentioned why any sources used would be accurate to rely upon. The authors never discuss any historical method used, nor do they acknowledge how some contents may be less accurate than others, nor do they mention alternate possibilities of the events given the limited information they had from their sources. They never express amazement or any degree of rational skepticism no matter how implausible an event within the story may be — something we would expect from any rational historian (even one living in antiquity). The authors never explain why they changed what their sources said, nor do they even acknowledge that they did such a thing in the first place — despite the fact that Matthew and Luke clearly relied on Mark as a source (as did John, though less obviously so), for example, and then they all redacted Mark’s version as needed to serve their own literary and theological purposes (which explains some of the contradictions found between one Gospel and another). Instead, the Gospels appear to be fictional historical biographies, likely written by specially interested Christians whose intent was to edify Jesus, just like many other fictional historical biographies that were made for various heroes and sages in antiquity. In fact, all students of literary Greek (the authors of the Gospels wrote their manuscripts in literary Greek), commonly used this fictional biographical technique as a popular rhetorical device — where they were taught to invent narratives about famous and legendary people, as well as to build a symbolic or moral message within it, and where they were taught to make changes to traditional stories in order to make whatever point they desired within their own stories."
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark


well focues on any specific point from this list

It is still a historical fact that:

1 Jesus Existed

2 Did stuff that some interpreted as miracles

3 Was crucified and buried

4 He claimed to be divine , he claimed to have a special relationship with God

5 He had disciples

6 traveled around various towns in Palestine

7 was baptized by John the Baptist.

8 had brothers
Why would you say that the specific point that you selected is non-historical?
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
There is nothing to argue with here.

I think the problem is, people want 100% corroboration for everything that happened as if there was a video recording in those days for historical verification

Yet, as one person wrote,

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

That's how some people think... I've met people who actually reject searching for patterns or likelihoods on their own, and require already-established evidence for *anything* before offering any sort of consideration.

...But finding patterns and connecting the dots is the fundamental building block of human abstract thinking. Without it, our thinking would resemble something more like how goats or sheep think.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
See @Valjean I can quote a specific claim that I disagree with
They do not say Jesus had a biologcal brother for sure. It's also likely he was being called a "brother in the lord". Paul later uses the Greek word for biological brother and it's not the same word. At best we cannot tell.

and then I will provide the reasons for why I disagree. (why cant you do the same with my claims?)


1 Given the context of multiple texts ( Galatians 1:18-19 for example) , it’s clear that the author is talking about biololical brothers. We have these type of examples both in Paul and the gospels.

Galatians 1:18-19 for example
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother

The point that Paul made was to show that James had a different relation with James than with Peter, if they where “Spiritual brothers” then Paul would have not excluded Peter from that description.

mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
In this context its obvious that the author is talking about biologival brothers.


2 From the point of view of the authors of the NT This has zero theological significance, James could have been a “spiritual brother” and that would not affect any doctrine of the early church …. So why would they lie?

3 Josephus also mentions “James the brother of Jesus”

you see @Valjean
I am providing the exact reason for why I disagree with “ @joelr “ that way he can defend his position against these specific arguments. Why can’t you do the same with my claims? Why wouldn’t you quote a specific claim and explain why you disagree? this is the way reasonable conversations are suppose to be.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I think I've posted something similar in the past, but let's just look at Chapter 1 of the earliest Gospel, Mark:

The beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

As it is written in the prophet Isaiah,

“See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way;
the voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”

It's already clear we're not dealing with a "historical" document, but rather a religious one.

John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And people from the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him, and were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Obviously absurd exaggeration. Again, this is not history. It's myth.

Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the thong of his sandals. I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove on him. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”

...

*blink. Blink*

So just at the magic moment when Jesus gets baptized, the sky splits open, "the Spirit" comes down "like a dove" on him, and God's voice booms down approval from heaven a la Monty Python.

This is not history. It is myth, folks.

And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. He was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels waited on him.

Again, if we replaced the supernatural beings here with that of any other tradition, any Christian would see this as myth, not history.

Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.”

As Jesus passed along the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the sea—for they were fishermen. And Jesus said to them, “Follow me and I will make you fish for people.” And immediately they left their nets and followed him.

Absurdly implausible as history. You just met a guy, he says one sentence to you, and you abandon your job and whole life for 3 years? No. Sorry. That dog don't hunt.

As he went a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John, who were in their boat mending the nets. Immediately he called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men, and followed him.

More absurdly implausible gullibility. This, again, is not history. (Note also how in Mark everything happens "immediately." Another sign that, again, we'renot dealing with history, but intentionally stylized literature).

They went to Capernaum; and when the sabbath came, he entered the synagogue and taught. They were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Just then there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out, “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.” But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him. They were all amazed, and they kept on asking one another, “What is this? A new teaching—with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.” At once his fame began to spread throughout the surrounding region of Galilee.

At his first teaching appearance in a synagogue, a dramatic encounter happens with a demon-possessed guy who, of course, Jesus exorcises in equally dramatic, Hollywood-worthy fashion. Jesus becomes immediately famous throughout the whole region.

Again: not history.

As soon as they left the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. Now Simon’s mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told him about her at once. He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up. Then the fever left her, and she began to serve them.

Jesus magically heals Peter's mother-in-law. This is the stuff of fantasy, not history.

That evening, at sunset, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. And the whole city was gathered around the door. And he cured many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him.

Jesus miraculously heals many people and exorcises more demons. "The whole city" gathers at Jesus' place.

Again - this is not history.

In the morning, while it was still very dark, he got up and went out to a deserted place, and there he prayed. And Simon and his companions hunted for him. When they found him, they said to him, “Everyone is searching for you.” He answered, “Let us go on to the neighboring towns, so that I may proclaim the message there also; for that is what I came out to do.” And he went throughout Galilee, proclaiming the message in their synagogues and casting out demons.

A leper came to him begging him, and kneeling he said to him, “If you choose, you can make me clean.” Moved with pity, Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, “I do choose. Be made clean!” Immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. After sternly warning him he sent him away at once, saying to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely, and to spread the word, so that Jesus could no longer go into a town openly, but stayed out in the country; and people came to him from every quarter.

Jesus magically heals a guy of leprosy, and because the guy spreads the word, Jesus gets so famous he can't even go into cities anymore.

Ahem.

Again, this is not history. It is magic on top of absurd implausibility and exaggeration.

And this is no exception to the rest of the content of the Gospels. The rest is much the same.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
I think I've posted something similar in the past, but let's just look at Chapter 1 of the earliest Gospel, Mark:



It's already clear we're not dealing with a "historical" document, but rather a religious one.



Obviously absurd exaggeration. Again, this is not history. It's myth.



...

*blink. Blink*

So just at the magic moment when Jesus gets baptized, the sky splits open, "the Spirit" comes down "like a dove" on him, and God's voice booms down approval from heaven a la Monty Python.

This is not history. It is myth, folks.



Again, if we replaced the supernatural beings here with that of any other tradition, any Christian would see this as myth, not history.



Absurdly implausible as history. You just met a guy, he says one sentence to you, and you abandon your job and whole life for 3 years? No. Sorry. That dog don't hunt.



More absurdly implausible gullibility. This, again, is not history. (Note also how in Mark everything happens "immediately." Another sign that, again, we'renot dealing with history, but intentionally stylized literature).



At his first teaching appearance in a synagogue, a dramatic encounter happens with a demon-possessed guy who, of course, Jesus exorcises in equally dramatic, Hollywood-worthy fashion. Jesus becomes immediately famous throughout the whole region.

Again: not history.



Jesus magically heals Peter's mother-in-law. This is the stuff of fantasy, not history.



Jesus miraculously heals many people and exorcises more demons. "The whole city" gathers at Jesus' place.

Again - this is not history.



Jesus magically heals a guy of leprosy, and because the guy spreads the word, Jesus gets so famous he can't even go into cities anymore.

Ahem.

Again, this is not history. It is magic on top of absurd implausibility and exaggeration.

And this is no exception to the rest of the content of the Gospels. The rest is much the same.

Again, this is not history. It is magic on top of absurd implausibility and exaggeration.

And this is no exception to the rest of the content of the Gospels. The rest is much the same

AND how do you know that this are not historical facts?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
AND how do you know that this are not historical facts?

I don't "know" they aren't. I don't "know" just about anything. But in terms of probability, the point is that they are absurdly unrealistic and implausible as history. Again, if you read equivalent events in any sacred text of any other tradition, you'd write them off as obvious myth. Not history.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The reason I would argue that the Gospels are reliable from a historical point of view is because I belive that points 1,2 and 3 are ture:

1 the authors intended to report what actually happened

2 The authors had access to reliable sources.

3 So if an author tries to be accurate and has reliable sources it follows (inductively) that his work is reliable.

if you disagree with ether 1,2 or 3 please let me know why you disagree.




1 the authors intended to report what actually happened

Given the literary genera of the text (Greco roman biography) and the fact that the gosspels are fool of embarrassing details* it seems probable that point 1 is true

2 The authors had access to reliable sources.

Given that most of the political, historical, demographic and geographical details** in the gospels are accurate … it seems probable that the authors had access to good sources, otherwise they would have not known those details.

---

*Embarrassing details: Jesus had a humiliating death, Peter denied Jesus, The empty tomb was discovered by woman, he was buried in the tomb of a Jewish Sanhedrin, Jesus had limited knowledge, etc. all these details represented obstacles for the early Christians, (things would have been easier without those embarrassing details)

** There really was a Pilate, there really was a Caiphas, the ratio of common names vs uncommon names are consistent, there really was a Jewish Sanhedrin that had some power and influence over the romans, they villages, towns cities etc. really excisted…………onlyh someone who was there or who had acces to reliable source could have known all these.
I am sure that G-Mark is a deposition but which has been added to.

I think that both G-Luke G-Matthew are a collection of other peoples' depositions, but very valuable.

imo G-John is a compilation of many accounts, anecdotes and reports.

And so, Yes, the gospels have reliable material within them.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I don't "know" they aren't. I don't "know" just about anything. But in terms of probability, the point is that they are absurdly unrealistic and implausible as history. Again, if you read equivalent events in any sacred text of any other tradition, you'd write them off as obvious myth. Not history.
Am I correct in thinking that you do not believe any part of any account written in any of the gospels?

Is that the case for you?
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Many of the prophecies were likely written to appear to be fulfilled. The author of Mark was highly educated in myth storytelling and definitely used the OT narratives so using prophecies is extremely likely. Jesus is being portrayed as the new Moses and the religion is being taken into the "modern world" where savior gods were more popular and the temple ritual can be replaced.
I'm not a scholar of course so this is just my opinion: Mark was the first to do this. I"m not sure if he was trying to convert pagans to Christianity with his gospel the way the later authors were. I read somewhere that Mark's gospel was written as a passion play, sort of like the Greek tragedies, meant to be played on stage or something. Consequently, he wasn't bringing in all the supernatural stuff found in the later gospels. It's pretty bare bones, kind of like an outline upon which later authors would pile on their own bits of supernatural fantastic wizardry and fluff the story. Jesus is just an ordinary prophet in Mark's play, not the god son we see in John.

The OT scriptures Mark drew on were 500-1000 years old and obviously written for that time. Nobody in the OT had the slightest inkling Jesus would come along so how could they possibly be about him? That's why we have all these bizarre passages being painfully twisted and turned into something that sounds just remotely like a prophecy being fulfilled. The writers are simply trying to pound a square a peg into a round hole and not doing a very good job of it, like the "suffering servant" thing in Isaiah, which it is stated right there a chapter earlier that Israel is God's suffering servant, not Jesus. But count on a 1st century pulp fiction writer trying to get a point across to use the most wildly inaccurate, irrelevant scriptures to prop up a mythical being.
 
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