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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
David mentioned dwelling in heaven with God in the Psalms, and this was before the Persian invasion. Psalm 23:6
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Yes in Gods tent to be in the prescence of God. This is not like th econcept of heaven where all good sould go. Stop trying to rescue these myths. They were obviously influenced by Persian beliefs. You cannot change this.

Skywalker said:
Are you saying that if you didn't believe Noah's Ark and the creation narrative were taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Mesopotamian myths you wouldn't think that Christian sources not mentioning Zoroastrianism is proof they aren't borrowed from them? Some Christians think Adam and Eve could have details that are allegories.
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No the proof is that the stories are extremely similar and the concepts they took from the Persians were radically different from Judaism at the time. In fact as I posted, many Jewish religious leaders did not want to support these new idea but eventually came around.
all scholarship believes the Persians influenced Judaism during this period. I have sourced many PhD scholars. There is no argument.
If it makes you feel better to just deny deny deny then go for it?! I don't care?

Even if Jewish theologians came up with then by themselves, they are still fiction. But they did not. Noah was borrowed from Gilamesh. No writers talked about this? Neither would they when they stole savior concepts?
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
The modern concept of heaven and God vs Satan is a Persian concept. So they were progressive in that sense.
The firmament is ridiculous bronze age cosmology that is simply wrong. The Hindu had a far more progressive creation story and timeline.
The firmament and celestial temples were in the upper atmosphere. It's all complete nonsense. The NT talks about heaven because they learned a better version of the fiction and adopted it. OT cosmology is awful. The NT is heaven, Satan, saviors, apoctaliptic fiction ---all taken from the Perians.
Sorry, it's the Persians who shaped Christianity along with Greek and mystery religions.
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The book of Job mentions the evil nature of Satan. Job 2:3

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
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Job, like Psalms, was before the Persian invasion of the Hebrews.
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
The flood story existing in other faiths is evidence that there was a global flood. There are other possibilities for the flood story being in other faiths besides the Bible borrowing from them.
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No science ruled out a worldwide flood. The Epic of Gilamesh is far older than Noah so Noah copied. I'm not debating flood stories with you. You are way to much in denial.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Psalms not being influenced by the Persian invasions debunks the belief that the Christian belief of heaven is from Zoroastrianism.
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Nope, Why don't you try to see why it was dated to after the Babylonian captivity. Here is a hint, not everything had to be based on Zoroastrianism.
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
The book of Job mentions the evil nature of Satan. Job 2:3



Job, like Psalms, was before the Persian invasion of the Hebrews.
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Yup, we already talked about this exact thing. Satan works with God, toturing Job, inflicting a plague.....
Later they adopted the Persian version where God and Satan are enemies at war.

Now you are going in circles. You haven't made one single good point. I'm tired of just constantly correcting you because you refuse to accept your religion is borrowwed myths.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
Yes in Gods tent to be in the prescence of God. This is not like th econcept of heaven where all good sould go. Stop trying to rescue these myths. They were obviously influenced by Persian beliefs. You cannot change this.



No the proof is that the stories are extremely similar and the concepts they took from the Persians were radically different from Judaism at the time. In fact as I posted, many Jewish religious leaders did not want to support these new idea but eventually came around.
all scholarship believes the Persians influenced Judaism during this period. I have sourced many PhD scholars. There is no argument.
If it makes you feel better to just deny deny deny then go for it?! I don't care?

Even if Jewish theologians came up with then by themselves, they are still fiction. But they did not. Noah was borrowed from Gilamesh. No writers talked about this? Neither would they when they stole savior concepts?
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The Bible doesn't say the good go to heaven it says the redeemed go to heaven. The Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. Nothing in Psalm 23:6 hints at universalism, therefore, it doesn't support that the Christian belief of heaven is taken from the Persian invasion of the Hebrews.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
Here's the exact quote:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,

Do you see the name jesus mentioned anywhere in there? And bear in mind this was written circa 120 CE 90 years after an event tacitus never even witnessed. Consequently it is pure hearsay.
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Tacitus mentioned Jesus. Roman Historian Tacitus Mentions Jesus: Our Best Secular Source | Reasons for Jesus

Here is a full quote of the cite of our concern, from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome’s fire of 64 AD:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities.

CHRISTUS, THE FOUNDER OF THE NAME, WAS PUT TO DEATH BY PONTIUS PILATE, PROCURATOR OF JUDEA IN THE REIGN OF TIBERIUS:

but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular.

Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
both are myths both are fiction
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How is Christianity on the same level as other beliefs about eternal life? Christianity is a narrow path. Islam and Buddhism are easier because they teach nirvana and salvation by works. The pagan beliefs of the first century didn't have the same beliefs as Christians on God being holy and just.
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
The Bible doesn't say the good go to heaven it says the redeemed go to heaven. The Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. Nothing in Psalm 23:6 hints at universalism, therefore, it doesn't support that the Christian belief of heaven is taken from the Persian invasion of the Hebrews.
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In Judaism there is no afterlife besides going back to your grave. Heaven is where God dwells.

The after they copied the Persians: - immortality of the soul, resurrection of the dead, human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there, The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness


do you get it now?


During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
The evidence is the Jewish religion had no afterlife, heaven, hell, world ends in fire and members get resurrected but the Persians did. For centuries the Jews did not have anything at all like these concepts.
Then, after the occupation, suddenly all these and more were added to the Jewish faith. That is evidence.
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Psalms mentioned heaven and hell and that was before the Persians invaded the Jews.
 
joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
Tacitus mentioned Jesus. Roman Historian Tacitus Mentions Jesus: Our Best Secular Source | Reasons for Jesus
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Tacitus mentioned the cult and a story from the gospels


...To get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Chrestians[43] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

— Tacitus' Annals 15.44, see Tacitus on Christ
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
In Judaism there is no afterlife besides going back to your grave. Heaven is where God dwells.

The after they copied the Persians: - immortality of the soul, resurrection of the dead, human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there, The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness


do you get it now?


During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]
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Judaism is not a direct continuation of the faith of the Israelites. They believe in the Old Testament and rabbinic tradition. It's similar to how the Catholic Church has the catechism and the Bible. The Psalms mention hell and dwelling in the house of the lord.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
No way. I cannot believe you are still asking these questions? Sin forgiveness was something the Jews were really into. So when they took the myth they added the things to it that they wanted.
Sin forgiving may have been part of other mystery religions but those gospels were destroyed by the church.
All that matters is the dying/rising god-human who gives salvation to humanity. This was the popular idea. The Persian savior was also virgin born.
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Tammuz was not a Savior from sin. What pagan god gave salvation to humanity from their sins? Is Jesus A Knock-Off Of Pagan Gods? 15 “Dying & Rising” Pagan Savior Gods Debunked | Reasons for Jesus

Tammuz was also called a “healer” (as a profession), and regarded as a savior, but as Langdon notes (25) those who referred to Tammuz by these names “have not those spiritual doctrines which these words convey in Christian doctrine” in mind, but use the words “in the sense that all life depended upon his sacrifice and especially upon his return from hell.”

This means physical, not spiritual life: Tammuz healed medically, but as Langdon reminds us, “[e]very deity, male or female, possessed this power,” so Tammuz is not unusual in this regard. Tammuz saved, but not from sin: He saved from starvation and physical death. He was never looked upon as one to rescue from eternal damnation.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
The evidence is the Jewish religion had no afterlife, heaven, hell, world ends in fire and members get resurrected but the Persians did. For centuries the Jews did not have anything at all like these concepts.
Then, after the occupation, suddenly all these and more were added to the Jewish faith. That is evidence.
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Hell is mentioned in Daniel 12: 2 and Proverbs.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

The Lord makes it clear that there will be a time when it is too late to repent and even the cries for mercy from the wicked will go unheard by God:

“Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me, since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD.” –Proverbs 1:28-29
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joelr

joelr

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
The Ten Commandments were given to show us that we can't keep God's laws, a concept that is different from Hinduism.
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The 10 Commandments of Hinduism are :
  • Satya (Truth)
  • Ahimsa (Non-violence)
  • Brahmacharya (Celibacy, non-adultery)
  • Asteya (No desire to possess or steal)
  • Aparighara (Non-corrupt)
  • Shaucha (Cleanliness)
  • Santosh (Contentment)
  • Swadhyaya (Reading of scriptures)
  • Tapas (Austerity, perseverance, penance)
    Ishwarpranidhan (Regular prayers)


the 10 commandments were a lame rip-off of the 256 Code of Hammaurabi from Egypt
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
Please read this. This explicitely says the Jews were heavily influenced by the Persians

It does mention heaven but not in the same way, it's where God lives, here is that mention:


"The God of the Israelites is described as ruling both Heaven and Earth (Genesis 14:19 22 24:3, Psalm 146:6).[27] Other passages, such as 1 Kings 8:27 state that even the vastness of Heaven cannot contain God's majesty.[27] A number of passages throughout the Hebrew Bible indicate that Heaven and Earth will one day come to an end (Psalm 102:26–27, Isaiah 13:5, 14:26, 24:18, 51:6, Jeremiah 4:23–28, and Zephaniah 1:2–3 and 18).[27] This view is paralleled in other ancient Near Eastern cultures, which also regarded Heaven and Earth as vulnerable and subject to dissolution.[27] However, the Hebrew Bible differs from other ancient Near Eastern cultures in that it portrays the God of Israel as independent of creation and unthreatened by its potential destruction.[27] Because most of the Hebrew Bible concerns the God of Israel's relationship with his people, most of the events described in it take place on Earth, not in Heaven.[30] The Deuteronomistic source, Deuteronomistic History, and Priestly source all portray the Temple in Jerusalem as the sole channel of communication between Earth and Heaven.[31]"


BUT THEN, 2nd temple period (PERSIAN INVASION)


"During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.["
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The Christian concept of heaven being in Psalm 23:6 is a logical inference and a good possibility.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
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The Hebrew Bible mentions Abraham being a friend of God.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
The 10 Commandments of Hinduism are :
  • Satya (Truth)
  • Ahimsa (Non-violence)
  • Brahmacharya (Celibacy, non-adultery)
  • Asteya (No desire to possess or steal)
  • Aparighara (Non-corrupt)
  • Shaucha (Cleanliness)
  • Santosh (Contentment)
  • Swadhyaya (Reading of scriptures)
  • Tapas (Austerity, perseverance, penance)
    Ishwarpranidhan (Regular prayers)


the 10 commandments were a lame rip-off of the 256 Code of Hammaurabi from Egypt
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There are similarities between the code of Hammurabi and the Ten Commandments because of universal moral principles about respecting oneself and others.
 
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