One God? Two Gods? Three? One God, different moods and personalities?

This is mainly an academic endeavor... I have no dog in the fight. I just like learning things. And partly, ok largely, prompted by the recent Abrahamic God threads.

Backstory: I was raised Catholic, left Catholicism and joined the Eastern Orthodox Church when I was 23 years old. I remained Orthodox for about the next 10 years, though I faded away from it. The theology and cosmology just didn’t make sense to me anymore. I took a few side trips through Agnosticism, Deism, Agnostic Deism, Coastinginneutralism (meaning I was apathetic) for a good 10 years, finally landing in Hinduism. This is my last stop.

I was raised on the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament. I was pretty devout, even as a kid, going to Mass regularly by myself and with my friends. We lived in Vailsburg section of Newark, where our church was walking distance. I liked Jesus but I was terrified of God. I feared going to Hell for every f-bomb I launched, every time I did what most 13 year olds boys do (I swear the priests in the confessionals knew my voice), every time I missed Mass. This is what we were taught... that God is judge, jury and executioner, not necessarily in that order.

As I got older I came to the conclusion there had to be two Gods, or one bipolar God (yeeks! ). The God of the Old Testament that we knew, or was taught, was that jealous, angry, vengeful, genocidal God. The one to condemn a wayward soul to burn in Hell for eternity. Not a nice fellow a’tall. And then there is the God Jesus talked about... a loving father who feeds even the birds. The father Jesus told his audience “Who among you would give your child a serpent instead of a fish, or a stone instead of bread? So, if as evil as you are, you give good things to your children, how much more good things will your father in Heaven give you?” But this God was never really publicized.

If you’re still with me, or awake...

My questions to Christians, Muslims, Baha’is (I can never spell it right), and especially Jews because after all, he was their God first...

1. How do you reconcile the two disparate natures and personalities of God from Old Testament to New Testament? (that’s mainly for the Christians, but others are free to weigh in).
2. How do Jews actually see God, given the not-so-nice stories of smiting, knocking down cities and killing the inhabitants right down to the children (Jericho)? Afaik Jews worship the God more like the one Jesus spoke of.

All faiths are welcome to weigh. Please no debating, and please keep it civil. I know God can be a touchy subject.

In my best Linda Richman, “Talk amongst ya selves”.

Jainarayan said:

This is mainly an academic endeavor... I have no dog in the fight. I just like learning things. And partly, ok largely, prompted by the recent Abrahamic God threads.

Backstory: I was raised Catholic, left Catholicism and joined the Eastern Orthodox Church when I was 23 years old. I remained Orthodox for about the next 10 years, though I faded away from it. The theology and cosmology just didn’t make sense to me anymore. I took a few side trips through Agnosticism, Deism, Agnostic Deism, Coastinginneutralism (meaning I was apathetic) for a good 10 years, finally landing in Hinduism. This is my last stop.

I was raised on the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament. I was pretty devout, even as a kid, going to Mass regularly by myself and with my friends. We lived in Vailsburg section of Newark, where our church was walking distance. I liked Jesus but I was terrified of God. I feared going to Hell for every f-bomb I launched, every time I did what most 13 year olds boys do (I swear the priests in the confessionals knew my voice), every time I missed Mass. This is what we were taught... that God is judge, jury and executioner, not necessarily in that order.

As I got older I came to the conclusion there had to be two Gods, or one bipolar God (yeeks! ). The God of the Old Testament that we knew, or was taught, was that jealous, angry, vengeful, genocidal God. The one to condemn a wayward soul to burn in Hell for eternity. Not a nice fellow a’tall. And then there is the God Jesus talked about... a loving father who feeds even the birds. The father Jesus told his audience “Who among you would give your child a serpent instead of a fish, or a stone instead of bread? So, if as evil as you are, you give good things to your children, how much more good things will your father in Heaven give you?” But this God was never really publicized.

If you’re still with me, or awake...

My questions to Christians, Muslims, Baha’is (I can never spell it right), and especially Jews because after all, he was their God first...

1. How do you reconcile the two disparate natures and personalities of God from Old Testament to New Testament? (that’s mainly for the Christians, but others are free to weigh in).
2. How do Jews actually see God, given the not-so-nice stories of smiting, knocking down cities and killing the inhabitants right down to the children (Jericho)? Afaik Jews worship the God more like the one Jesus spoke of.

All faiths are welcome to weigh. Please no debating, and please keep it civil. I know God can be a touchy subject.

In my best Linda Richman, “Talk amongst ya selves”.

View attachment 47420

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I see we only have to look into our own selves to find our One God.

The God of Virtue stands within, ready and unconstrained.

Our own humanity of an animal nature is the veil that we have to remove, as we are the sum of all the darkness, given the potential to let God shine from us, unconstrained.

Regards Tony

What a great topic! I wondered this myself...I cant wait to read people's replies.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see we only have to look into our own selves to find our One God.

The God of Virtue stands within, ready and unconstrained.

Our own humanity of an animal nature is the veil that we have to remove, as we are the sum of all the darkness, given the potential to let God shine from us, unconstrained.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

True, I think most religions believe God to be within us. The nuns taught us our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, i.e., God. There’s a song in Hindi in which there’s a line “swami tuma antaryami” meaning “You are the Lord within”. And we’re assuming that loving Lord.

But my question is how do you reconcile that with the God of the Old Testament? Assuming he’s actually the way he’s portrayed. And if Baha’is use the Bible... I know very little of the Baha’i Faith.

Ray Warren said:

I cant wait to read people's replies.

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Me too.

Jainarayan said:

How do Jews actually see God, given the not-so-nice stories of smiting, knocking down cities and killing the inhabitants right down to the children (Jericho)? Afaik Jews worship the God more like the one Jesus spoke of.

Click to expand...

As was noted in some other thread, the "Old Testament" is a Christian conception. So what you're really asking observant Jews is what the Torah says.

As someone who does not practice Judaism but has found great wisdom in that religion (and others), my personal perception is that a lot of the stories come from a time when humanity needed to be guided by a conception of a super king who dispensed reward and punishment.

And too often people ascribe to Divinity their own wishes. So assuming that there was, for example, a battle for a city, a victory would be ascribed to God's blessing.

Rather than focus on what is written in a book as being definitive, I prefer to focus on what is in the living tradition of people following a religion. From that perspective, I'll mention some posts that I saved from the Facebook "Lights of Kaballah" group:

"Let the good in me connect with the good in others, until all the world is transformed through the compelling power of love.” Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Why? Because every human being has a root in the Unity, and to reject the minutest particle of the Unity is to reject it all.” Baal Shem Tov

When we refer to G‑d’s presence within our world, giving life to all things, then She is the Shechinah.
When we refer to G‑d’s transcendence beyond this world, we call Him “The Holy One, blessed be He.”
In our prayers, collectively our souls take the role of the Shechinah, petitioning the Holy One, blessed be He.
Our mitzvahs, our Torah study and our prayer unite these two aspects of G‑d into a perfect whole. Through them, we reveal the essential G‑d who is beyond both the immanent and the transcendent—beyond all description and bounds.
And that is what we mean when we say, “On that day, G‑d will be One and His name will be One.” Rabbi Tzvi Freeman

Jainarayan said:

The God of the Old Testament that we knew, or was taught, was that jealous, angry, vengeful, genocidal God. The one to condemn a wayward soul to burn in Hell for eternity. Not a nice fellow a’tall.

Click to expand...

Really?

Isaiah 43:1-3
But now thus says the Lord,

he who created you, O Jacob,

he who formed you, O Israel:

“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;

I have called you by name, you are mine.

When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;

and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;

when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,

and the flame shall not consume you.

For I am the Lord your God,

the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.”


Isaiah 54:10
“For the mountains may depart

and the hills be removed,

but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,

and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,”

says the Lord, who has compassion on you.

That's just a few, there are many verses stressing God's unconditional love in Hebrew Scripture

Jainarayan said:

This is mainly an academic endeavor... I have no dog in the fight. I just like learning things. And partly, ok largely, prompted by the recent Abrahamic God threads.

Backstory: I was raised Catholic, left Catholicism and joined the Eastern Orthodox Church when I was 23 years old. I remained Orthodox for about the next 10 years, though I faded away from it. The theology and cosmology just didn’t make sense to me anymore. I took a few side trips through Agnosticism, Deism, Agnostic Deism, Coastinginneutralism (meaning I was apathetic) for a good 10 years, finally landing in Hinduism. This is my last stop.

I was raised on the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament. I was pretty devout, even as a kid, going to Mass regularly by myself and with my friends. We lived in Vailsburg section of Newark, where our church was walking distance. I liked Jesus but I was terrified of God. I feared going to Hell for every f-bomb I launched, every time I did what most 13 year olds boys do (I swear the priests in the confessionals knew my voice), every time I missed Mass. This is what we were taught... that God is judge, jury and executioner, not necessarily in that order.

As I got older I came to the conclusion there had to be two Gods, or one bipolar God (yeeks! ). The God of the Old Testament that we knew, or was taught, was that jealous, angry, vengeful, genocidal God. The one to condemn a wayward soul to burn in Hell for eternity. Not a nice fellow a’tall. And then there is the God Jesus talked about... a loving father who feeds even the birds. The father Jesus told his audience “Who among you would give your child a serpent instead of a fish, or a stone instead of bread? So, if as evil as you are, you give good things to your children, how much more good things will your father in Heaven give you?” But this God was never really publicized.

If you’re still with me, or awake...

My questions to Christians, Muslims, Baha’is (I can never spell it right), and especially Jews because after all, he was their God first...

1. How do you reconcile the two disparate natures and personalities of God from Old Testament to New Testament? (that’s mainly for the Christians, but others are free to weigh in).
2. How do Jews actually see God, given the not-so-nice stories of smiting, knocking down cities and killing the inhabitants right down to the children (Jericho)? Afaik Jews worship the God more like the one Jesus spoke of.

All faiths are welcome to weigh. Please no debating, and please keep it civil. I know God can be a touchy subject.

In my best Linda Richman, “Talk amongst ya selves”.

View attachment 47420

Click to expand...

This is really my personal experience from being a Christian.

Not sure that Muslims or Baha'i need reconcile God to the NT.
Since in the West folks mostly see the OT through the lens of the NT we find an immoral God. If you just read the OT in context, God is not really a monster.

As a Christian, the only references use from the OT was to support the NT narrative. The parts of the OT not needed to support the NT was never really brought up. Not in church/Bible studies etc.

When folks attack the OT they bring up passages most Christians never really worried about before. They (Christians) become very creative about reconciling the NT and OT. This reconciliation is rarely consistent from one group to the next.

sun rise said:

As was noted in some other thread, the "Old Testament" is a Christian conception. So what you're really asking observant Jews is what the Torah says.

Click to expand...

That’s what I’ve wanted to know for a long time.

As someone who does not practice Judaism but has found great wisdom in that religion (and others), my personal perception is that a lot of the stories come from a time when humanity needed to be guided by a conception of a super king who dispensed reward and punishment.

And too often people ascribe to Divinity their own wishes. So assuming that there was, for example, a battle for a city, a victory would be ascribed to God's blessing.

Click to expand...

That makes sense.

Rather than focus on what is written in a book as being definitive, I prefer to focus on what is in the living tradition of people following a religion.

Click to expand...

That’s what I’m talking about. Everything I’ve heard, read, known is that the relationship between Jews and God is a benevolent and loving one.

It’s just my guess that some of the nasty stuff was interpolated for some reason, possibly an agenda.

Jainarayan said:

True, I think most religions believe God to be within us. The nuns taught us our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, i.e., God. There’s a song in Hindi in which there’s a line “swami tuma antaryami” meaning “You are the Lord within”. And we’re assuming that loving Lord.

But my question is how do you reconcile that with the God of the Old Testament? Assuming he’s actually the way he’s portrayed. And if Baha’is use the Bible... I know very little of the Baha’i Faith.

Click to expand...

I see what was recorded in the Old Testament was the importance of the Law and the results of what happens when we do not turn to that Law. I see Jesus Christ showed us that it was a Spiritual Journey, how to partake of that journey and Muhammad brought back a balance.

It is a big topic though.

Regards Tony

pcarl said:

Really?

Isaiah 43:1-3
But now thus says the Lord,

he who created you, O Jacob,

he who formed you, O Israel:

“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;

I have called you by name, you are mine.

When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;

and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;

when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,

and the flame shall not consume you.

For I am the Lord your God,

the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.”


Isaiah 54:10
“For the mountains may depart

and the hills be removed,

but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,

and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,”

says the Lord, who has compassion on you.

That's just a few, there are many verses stressing God's unconditional love in Hebrew Scripture

Click to expand...

Right, which are things that were never stressed or rarely mentioned. Oh sure, a Psalm or verse was read here or there, but those verses were largely glossed over. They were never expanded on or interpreted. It sounds like the Bible was and is grossly misused.

Jainarayan said:

Right, which are things that were never stressed or rarely mentioned. Oh sure, a Psalm or verse was read here or there, but those verses were largely glossed over. They were never expanded on or interpreted. It sounds like the Bible was and is grossly misused.

Click to expand...

Both the Old and New Testament were sealed until opened.

The full potential of those books, was not to be found in their time.

Regards Tony

Existence without beginning or end, infinite, everywhere, therefore invisible.

A Cause without beginning or end, both infinite and finite, both everywhere and local, the visible for the invisable, both eternal and temporal.

An Essence without beginning or end, the reason that Existence, Cause and Essence are the same essence and distinct Essence, Cause and Existence.

Jainarayan said:

This is mainly an academic endeavor... I have no dog in the fight. I just like learning things. And partly, ok largely, prompted by the recent Abrahamic God threads.

Backstory: I was raised Catholic, left Catholicism and joined the Eastern Orthodox Church when I was 23 years old. I remained Orthodox for about the next 10 years, though I faded away from it. The theology and cosmology just didn’t make sense to me anymore. I took a few side trips through Agnosticism, Deism, Agnostic Deism, Coastinginneutralism (meaning I was apathetic) for a good 10 years, finally landing in Hinduism. This is my last stop.

I was raised on the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament. I was pretty devout, even as a kid, going to Mass regularly by myself and with my friends. We lived in Vailsburg section of Newark, where our church was walking distance. I liked Jesus but I was terrified of God. I feared going to Hell for every f-bomb I launched, every time I did what most 13 year olds boys do (I swear the priests in the confessionals knew my voice), every time I missed Mass. This is what we were taught... that God is judge, jury and executioner, not necessarily in that order.

As I got older I came to the conclusion there had to be two Gods, or one bipolar God (yeeks! ). The God of the Old Testament that we knew, or was taught, was that jealous, angry, vengeful, genocidal God. The one to condemn a wayward soul to burn in Hell for eternity. Not a nice fellow a’tall. And then there is the God Jesus talked about... a loving father who feeds even the birds. The father Jesus told his audience “Who among you would give your child a serpent instead of a fish, or a stone instead of bread? So, if as evil as you are, you give good things to your children, how much more good things will your father in Heaven give you?” But this God was never really publicized.

If you’re still with me, or awake...

My questions to Christians, Muslims, Baha’is (I can never spell it right), and especially Jews because after all, he was their God first...

1. How do you reconcile the two disparate natures and personalities of God from Old Testament to New Testament? (that’s mainly for the Christians, but others are free to weigh in).
2. How do Jews actually see God, given the not-so-nice stories of smiting, knocking down cities and killing the inhabitants right down to the children (Jericho)? Afaik Jews worship the God more like the one Jesus spoke of.

All faiths are welcome to weigh. Please no debating, and please keep it civil. I know God can be a touchy subject.

In my best Linda Richman, “Talk amongst ya selves”.

View attachment 47420

Click to expand...

The OT represents the understanding of God by the men who wrote the OT scriptures. They wrote in "preacher speak", as if God were directing them when in fact it was just their own world view as descendants of Abraham.

God hasn't changed, our understanding of God changes. Jesus was the closest thing we have to the actual God on earth as it was reveled in his life.

Jainarayan said:

How do you reconcile the two disparate natures and personalities of God from Old Testament to New Testament? (that’s mainly for the Christians, but others are free to weigh in).

Click to expand...

The social circumstances were very different when God revealed Himself through Moses compared to when He revealed Himself through Jesus. The challenges facing the Jewish people were formidable. First freeing themselves from captivity from the Egyptians, then preparing themselves for conquering the land of Canaan while inhabiting the desert, upon successful conquest uniting their respective tribes and repelling enemies. Eventually they succumbed to the Assyrians and Babylonians. They were provided with new freedoms under the Persians only to be conquered again by the Greeks and then Romans leading to the Jewish diaspora for over 1,800 years. However, the loving God of the NT is still reflected in verses from Psalms and other books from the Tanakh.

It needs to be kept in mind that there were on corrective facilities for criminal offenders like we have today. Prisons were not an option. So with the need to keep strict law and order and there being no compromise with worshipping any God but Yahweh, the Mosaic era was quite austere reflecting the need for laws that would be seen as barbaric today. The Quran revealed through Muhammad had similar severe laws with an uncompromising attitude towards the pagans who mercilessly pursued the Muslims and tried to destroy them.

In the time of Jesus, the Jews wanted their Messiah to free them from the Romans but this was not practical and the path laid down by Jesus was ''turn the other cheek". Its not that God suddenly became a pacifist, He was a pragmatist. He knew His message would be rejected by His own people and the time had come for Jewish Teachings to become more universal. Emphasis was given on preaching this new Gospel to all the nations.

So in summary, the culture, social circumstances and requirements of the age were very different with the Mosaic and Christian dispensations. As my prophet Baha'u'llah has said:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

adrian009 said:

The social circumstances were very different when God revealed Himself through Moses compared to when He revealed Himself through Jesus. The challenges facing the Jewish people were formidable. First freeing themselves from captivity from the Egyptians, then preparing themselves for conquering the land of Canaan while inhabiting the desert, upon successful conquest uniting their respective tribes and repelling enemies who in turn would want to conquer them. Eventually they succumbed to the Assyrians and Babylonians. They were provided with new freedoms Persians under the Persians only to be conquered again by the Greeks and then Romans leading to the Jewish diaspora for over 1,800 years. However, the loving God of the NT is still reflected in verses from Psalms and other books from the Tanakh.

It needs to be kept in mind that there were no the types of corrective rehabilitation facilities for criminal offenders like we have today. Prisons were not an option. So with need to keep strict law and order and there being no compromise with worshipping any God but Yahweh, the Mosaic era was quite austere reflecting the need for laws that would be seen as barbaric today. The Quran revealed through Muhammad had similar severe laws with an uncompromising attitude towards the pagans who mercilessly pursued the Muslims and tried to destroy them.

In the time of Jesus, the Jews wanted their Messiah to free them from the Romans but this was not practical and the path laid down by Jesus was ''turn the other cheek". Its not that God suddenly became a pacifist, He was a pragmatist. He knew His message would be rejected by His own people and the time had come for Jewish Teachings to become more universal. Emphasis was given on preaching this new Gospel to all the nations.

So in summary, the culture, social circumstances and requirements of the age were very different with the Mosaic and Christian dispensations. As my prophet Baha'u'llah has said:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

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Y’know... that makes an eminent amount of sense. Yahweh was doing what he needed to do to keep order for, and safety of his followers. Much like Vishnu had to slay Hiranyakashipu to protect Prahlada, whom Hiranyakashipu repeatedly afflicted and tried to kill.

Ok, so let’s say that was for then but not for now.Now my question is (largely rhetorical)... why do so many Christians (not all, I know that) hold onto that? They live in 1350 BCE, not 30 CE. I’m thinking it was early church leaders who wanted to keep people in line because Jesus was “too nice”. It’s been propagated down through the centuries.

Meh, just a thought experiment.

Jainarayan said:

Y’know... that makes an eminent amount of sense. Yahweh was doing what he needed to do to keep order for, and safety of his followers. Much like Vishnu had to slay Hiranyakashipu to protect Prahlada, whom Hiranyakashipu repeatedly afflicted and tried to kill.

Ok, so let’s say that was for then but not for now.Now my question is (largely rhetorical)... why do so many Christians (not all, I know that) hold onto that? They live in 1350 BCE, not 30 CE. I’m thinking it was early church leaders who wanted to keep people in line because Jesus was “too nice”. It’s been propagated down through the centuries.

Meh, just a thought experiment.

Click to expand...

It's an important question. Assuming the Gospels represent an authentic Revelation from God, when did Christianity become corrupted? Christianity didn't have real power in a worldly sense until the Emperor Constantine became a Christian and Christianity gained legitimacy. Many centuries later the first Christian Crusades was directed towards Jerusalem, at that stage inhabited by Muslims. Most men, women and children were put to the sword echoing cities recorded in the book of Joshua. A subsequent crusade led to the sacking of Constantinople, I'm sure there were many Popes before the Christian crusades who were unfit for office.

Although there are wonderful Christians today, Christianity appears as a divided body divorced of the spirit that inspired its inception. But it's an interesting question as to when the rot set in. Its an historical question that Is worthy of deep reflection.