Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The Bible is never enough. The Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence. If the event never happened, which appears to be the case, they will never find the evidence. Do you have any evidence for the event?
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Shocked To Find Out Yahweh Was Originally A Canaanite God Who Had A Wife, Asherah
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say I believe it is true, I said "I like to think it is true."
Trailblazer said: I like to think it is true too, as I said in my thread below, but with no actual proof, how can we know what actually happened?
Below is what I believe, as I posted earlier, #155 which represents the scholarly position of the Baha'i Faith:
The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Bahá’í Writings
Here is an excerpt from the rather long article:
The story of the Exodus has endured well over two thousand years 8 and is commemorated annually by the Jewish holiday of Passover. But does it represent historical fact? Mírzá Abu’l-Fa∂l,9 a renowned Near Eastern scholar of the early 20thcentury, points out the lack of evidence of any of the Exodus events up to that time. He states, “No trace has been found of Plagues of the Exodus11 Moses’ mission to the Israelites, their plea for salvation from Pharaoh's tyranny through Moses’ leadership, or their emigration to the plains of Syria under his standard.”10 He says that “those with insight” should note this lack of evidence:
For it is unimaginable that the Egyptians, who depicted on walls every event, great or small, and inscribed in stone everything that happened in Egypt, whether temporal or religious in nature, should have neglected to mention such extraordinary and stupendous occurrences as Moses’ demonstration of amazing signs and the drowning of Pharaoh and his huge army.11 Since the time of Mírzá Abu’l-Fa∂l much has been learned about the history of the ancient Israelites, but evidence regarding the Exodus is still lacking.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yes, you are right. You did say that. And I appreciate the honesty. I screwed up since over 90% of the time people simply believe and will not admit it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No problem, I always appreciate your respectful tone.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No problem, I always appreciate your respectful tone.
I have to admit that I am not always respectful. There are those that get to me and I can be just a tad rude with them, not that the moderators every noticed
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I fully understand how you feel about Christians. Even though I share some of their beliefs, the ones I do not share, such as a belief in Satan and the bodily resurrection, drive me up a tree. So I get to practice being polite by NOT saying what I think or I try to word my response in such a way that it is just what I believe, and I try to explain why I don't believe what they believe.I have to admit that I am not always respectful. There are those that get to me and I can be just a tad rude with them, not that the moderators every noticed
I have never noticed you being rude but I have not read everything you have written. Maybe you are being a little hard on yourself, I do that too, because I do realize I am a little more "direct" than the other Baha'is, and I don't normally let anything slip by me because I am very detailed and analytical.
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SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Simple truth is a defense to any charge. The Christians say "It's a fact Jesus rose." It's no such thing. We haven't a sliver of evidence such an event transpired. That puts it in the realm of science fiction. Christians accept this belief purely on blind faith. If I accepted Jesus was going to heal me simply because my family prayed for me on blind faith I'd be dead by now. I put my faith in the doctor operating on me.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Oh darn, I just love that movie... The Ten Commandments movie
I especially like the parted where the Red Sea waters parted and all the Jews made it across, and I really like the part towards the end where Ramses says "His God is God."
On another note, why pick on the Old Testament? What about the New Testament chock full of resurrection stories? What do scholars say about those? Did Jesus really rise from the dead and walk around? If He did that would have made the 'cross sacrifice' kind of moot wouldn't it? If Jesus DIED for our sins then He had better stay dead.
Of course Baha'is do not believe in the bodily resurrection, what would have been the point of a body coming back to life since all bodies die eventually? At least some of the OT stories have a purpose and they symbolize something spiritual even if they are not literally true.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There was this atheist I posted to for over six years on other forums and he wrote something so good to the Christians that I wish I had saved his post. The gist is it was that a story is no proof that anything in the story ever happened,
so the fact that there were 'eyewitnesses' in the resurrection stories means nothing at all. Unless there were independent eyewitnesses OUTSIDE the story, people who were living at the time who could verify that those events took place they are just fictional stories men wrote. I mean I could write a novel that says that there are all these eyewitnesses, but what would that prove? It would prove I can write a novel.Sadly, my atheist friend never got his point through to any Christians, and they did not even understand what he was saying, because they..... believe. I would not mind it so much if they would admit the bodily resurrection is a faith-based belief and not state it as a fact. And I admit I am angry that so many people believe in the bodily resurrection
because it has basically ruined what Christianity should have been about, the teachings of Jesus, by focusing on a body rising from a grave. To me it is just dumb that anyone would care so much about a physical body, because we all die someday... It is mainly because of the belief in the bodily resurrection that Christianity went off the rails, and this one belief led to other false beliefs, like that they too would rise from their graves... It is so very sad. Moreover, focusing so much on the physical body of Jesus is diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the fact that I cannot get through to even one Christian regarding what it says in their own Bible just drives me up a wall.
They just cannot make the connection. Body = flesh = profits nothing = resurrection of a body from a grave profits nothing.
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
If you cant find evidence for your interpretation, then perhaps your interpretation is wrong.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Revelation 11:8
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23
For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron: 1 Kings 8:51
But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19
The Earth and the Heavens are the treasury of the Lord.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
There was this atheist I posted to for over six years on other forums and he wrote something so good to the Christians that I wish I had saved his post. The gist is it was that a story is no proof that anything in the story ever happened,
Sadly, my atheist friend never got his point through to any Christians, and they did not even understand what he was saying, because they..... believe. I would not mind it so much if they would admit the bodily resurrection is a faith-based belief and not state it as a fact. And I admit I am angry that so many people believe in the bodily resurrection
Moreover, focusing so much on the physical body of Jesus is diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the fact that I cannot get through to even one Christian regarding what it says in their own Bible just drives me up a wall.
They just cannot make the connection. Body = flesh = profits nothing = resurrection of a body from a grave profits nothing.
Check out the gospel of Thomas. It is reputed to be older than the 4 canonicals and it is composed purely Jesus' teaching--114 of them. It's probably closer to what Jesus taught than anything.
The Gospel of Thomas’s 114 Sayings of Jesus
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Once again the Bible is the claim. It is not the evidence. You can't seem to find any evidence for your beliefs either.
Here is an exercise for you, see if you can find any evidence for your beliefs outside of the Bible. I might have to help you with the concept of evidence too.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Interesting article, Worrier. Dated Aug 2020. You should read it:
Study says more than half of American adults don't believe Jesus is God
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I do hear some say Jesus is a man.
I do hear some say Jesus is God.
I do hear some say Jesus is part man - part God.
But do you think if Jesus united with God and then God spoke through Jesus then all three views could be equally correct without contradicting each other?
Is that a logical and reasonable point of view to have?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I have no opinion on Jesus' nature since I don't believe Jesus son of god ever lived.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How is that view different from saying that Jesus is part man - part God?
I do not believe that anyone can be united with God.
I believe that Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.
I believe that “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So you do not believe a man called Jesus even existed?
I do not believe that God has offspring, so I do not believe that Jesus was literally the Son of God.
Rather, I believe that 'Son of God' was intended to describe a relationship like a father would have with a son.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I do hear that too. Logical and reasonable. Thanks for your point of view.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror?
What does that mean?
Like I said:
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17
Im talking about being united with God. Like a marriage.
A man who is married to God.
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5
The bible mentions submitting and obeying the husband.