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Jehovah's Witnesses only: Questions regarding the resurrection in Jehovahs Witness theology

Brian2

Veteran Member
Picture it....you wake up from the sleep of death and you feel amazing. You look in the mirror and see a healthy version of yourself, recognisable by you and all who knew you. You would not be restored with a body ravaged by cancer or damaged in an accident.....the body given you might be new, but the “person” inside is yourself.....the unique person that you know yourself to be....why are you so hung up on being the original person. Once you die, all that remains of you is a dead soul. When you awaken from death, will you care that you have a new body or will you gratefully rejoice? I know how I would feel.....

I think the question is whether the person who wakes up is going to be the same you or just a copy who thinks he/she is you.

Like I mentioned before...identically twins, triplets etc, are souls in their own right, different sometimes like chalk and cheese. They were meant to be one person, but the fertilized egg split into two or three, sometimes even four or five......all are individuals, physical duplicates but usually different personalities.

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So...are these clones? Or are they just individual people with the same DNA?

These are individual people with the same DNA. Even clones are individual people with the same DNA. Each of them is unique in their experiences etc. But a you standing next to you who thinks he/she is you because God has put the same memories etc into him/her? Would that other you be you? And if not, then what would be the difference if God made a copy of you after you had died?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
REGARDING WHETHER THE RESURRECTED PERSONALITY IS A DUPLICATE OR THE ORIGINAL PERSONALITY

Clear asked : "Is it correct Jehovahs Witness theology that God will re-create a duplicate of the original person who died with all prior memories, prior knowledge, prior morals, prior attitudes, etc …?(post #12)

Deeje responded : "If God can create a new body and reinstall all the memories and personality traits that identify that individual to themselves and others, it is not a “duplicate” like a clone…. This is the same person in a new body. (post #13)

Clear said : “If the original person is annihilated and gone (i.e. nothing remains) then the resurrected person cannot BE the original. The original was annihilated and no longer exists. Good may re-create the original person to be exactly the same as the original, but they are not the original person. (#14)


Deeje replied : “why are you so hung up on being the original person.” (post #18)


I am “hung up” on accuracy and not misunderstanding another religions theology.
I see that often there is prejudice against the Jehovahs Witness and it is often originates with individuals who do not care to understand your theology in the first place.
I did not want to be that type of person.


It feels like these questions may be uncomfortable for some reason and I apologize to any Jehovahs Witness that I may have offended by asking them for or pursuing specific clarification. I do NOT want to cause frustration or consternation or discord.

I will see if I can search out these specific answers through another means.

Please, please, accept my thanks for any input from anyone who has tried to clarify my questions.


Clear
τωνεδρω
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
REGARDING WHETHER THE RESURRECTED PERSONALITY IS A DUPLICATE OR THE ORIGINAL PERSONALITY

Clear asked : "Is it correct Jehovahs Witness theology that God will re-create a duplicate of the original person who died with all prior memories, prior knowledge, prior morals, prior attitudes, etc …?(post #12)

Deeje responded : "If God can create a new body and reinstall all the memories and personality traits that identify that individual to themselves and others, it is not a “duplicate” like a clone…. This is the same person in a new body. (post #13)

Clear said : “If the original person is annihilated and gone (i.e. nothing remains) then the resurrected person cannot BE the original. The original was annihilated and no longer exists. Good may re-create the original person to be exactly the same as the original, but they are not the original person. (#14)


Deeje replied : “why are you so hung up on being the original person.” (post #18)


I am “hung up” on accuracy and not misunderstanding another religions theology.
I see that often there is prejudice against the Jehovahs Witness and it is often originates with individuals who do not care to understand your theology in the first place.
I did not want to be that type of person.


It feels like these questions may be uncomfortable for some reason and I apologize to any Jehovahs Witness that I may have offended by asking them for or pursuing specific clarification. I do NOT want to cause frustration or consternation or discord.

I will see if I can search out these specific answers through another means.

Please, please, accept my thanks for any input from anyone who has tried to clarify my questions.


Clear
τωνεδρω

I'm sorry I butted into your enquiries. I did not even notice it was the JW DIR when jumped in and posted my first post.
I'll go if you want to carry on your conversation in peace without me making it look like some sort of attack on their JW teachings.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
These are individual people with the same DNA. Even clones are individual people with the same DNA. Each of them is unique in their experiences etc. But a you standing next to you who thinks he/she is you because God has put the same memories etc into him/her? Would that other you be you? And if not, then what would be the difference if God made a copy of you after you had died?

God can only resurrect you if you die.....if I am not dead, there is nothing to resurrect. There is no other "me".
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am “hung up” on accuracy and not misunderstanding another religions theology.
I see that often there is prejudice against the Jehovahs Witness and it is often originates with individuals who do not care to understand your theology in the first place.
I did not want to be that type of person.

I appreciate your inquiries, but it seems as if we answer you and you still want clarification....how can we be clearer? We have given you what we believe and the scripture that supports our view......it is what we all believe, so why do you need to keep asking?

It feels like these questions may be uncomfortable for some reason and I apologize to any Jehovahs Witness that I may have offended by asking them for or pursuing specific clarification. I do NOT want to cause frustration or consternation or discord.

The only frustration seems to be your line of questioning when you don't seem to get the answer you are looking for....? We believe that when you die, you actually die....no part of you goes on living, having then to be placed in some kind of 'holding tank' waiting to a reuniting with a new body. Sleeping in the grave is a much simpler answer and one given in the scriptures. Jesus calls the dead out of their graves, not from the spirit realm. (John 5:28-29)

I will see if I can search out these specific answers through another means.

Why do you expect a different answer? We have already given you the answers. :shrug:
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That's true. However God can make a copy of us any time He likes. If it happens before death then it is easier to see that it is just a copy. If it happens after death, it is still just a copy.
A real resurrection cannot happen until the person dies however, because it requires the spirit part of that person, the part that is the essence of the person, to re-inhabit a body, and thus make that body alive.
Jesus claimed that part exists when He said that the soul is not killed at the death of the body (Matt 10:28) and when He said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still living because Moses said that God is the God of the living and not the dead.
Mark 12:26But concerning the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the Book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
The Sadducees, who did not believe in spirit (like the JWs) could see that there could not be a resurrection without one.
Paul claimed that when he spoke of us our body as a tent and that we could be away from it and with the Lord or could be in it, and that it would be replaced with an immortal one. (2Cor:1-10)
And of course there are many other places with a similar teaching about our indwelling spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is the totality of us when we are dead and so it seems that is why it is called our soul when we are dead.
For this to be true, it does not mean that the soul is immortal. Just that it does not die at the death of the body. It dies at the second death if that is the verdict.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Sleeping in the grave is a much simpler answer and one given in the scriptures. Jesus calls the dead out of their graves, not from the spirit realm. (John 5:28-29)

Sleeping implied that the person still exists and there has to be something/someone to hear Jesus calling them to resurrect. :)
It certainly looks to me that God brings the souls of the dead in Christ back with Jesus when Jesus returns, so that they can be resurrected. (1Thess 4:14-16)
I know that you find me incorrigible and do not wish to discuss these things with me and so I should stop now, especially bringing the disagreements into the JW camp so to speak. When I made my first post I did not realise where I was. So don't feel obliged to continue the discussion.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm sorry I butted into your enquiries. I did not even notice it was the JW DIR when jumped in and posted my first post.
I'll go if you want to carry on your conversation in peace without me making it look like some sort of attack on their JW teachings.

Hi @Brian2
Please, be at peace. I just think my specific questions may cause some undue stress as due to their association with a recent discussion regarding the J.Witness theology on resurrection. I have Private messaged to J.W. friends, and this tact seems (so far) to be more efficient, more insightful, and less controversial.

Please don't worry that you were bothersome at all. ( As an aside note, like you, I like the more ancient Judeo-Christian version of the "sleep" associated with death.)
Also, your observation in post #21 as to what I was actually asking clarification for was correct (i.e. "original or duplicate is resurrected?", and "duplicate or enhanced at resurrection?"). Thanks for seeing the difference.


Hi @Deeje.
Thank you so much for your answers. I appreciate the information you gave me.

Brian2 and Deeje, I hope your own spiritual Journeys are wonderful.

If there are any other Jehovahs Witnesses that have any clarification on the specific points I asked about, you can certainly private message me with additional clarification. Thanks

Clear
φιτζειω
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi;

I have a couple of very specific questions regarding Jehovahs Witness Theology and how it relates to the final resurrection of people.


If I understand Jehovahs Witness theology regarding resurrection correctly, there is nothing left of the original person who died, say a thousand years ago (other than perhaps a bit of bone of a long decayed body). The prior personality, the prior memories, the prior moral attitudes, the prior education etc. are all completely annihilated and non-existent (Other than that perhaps God "remembers" these things.)

Is this correct or do I misunderstand the Jehovahs Witness Theology on this specific point?

Thanks in advance for any clarification on this question.

Clear

I am no JW, and I dont have commentary as your topic says.

Just thanks for this kind of thread. We learn from it. Peace.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am no JW, and I dont have commentary as your topic says.

Just thanks for this kind of thread. We learn from it. Peace.

You are certainly welcome. I actually had three very specific questions that I wanted clarified so as to compare the Jehovahs Witness movements version of resurrection to the resurrection of the early Christian movement.

There is a lot of room for misunderstanding and I think that the best information does NOT come from "anti" sites, but most often from the believing members of the religious movement we are studying. Catholics can best explain Catholicism. Methodists can best explain Methodism. Bahai's can best explain their religion. Jehovahs Witnesses can best explain their religion.

I do find that different individuals in the same religion often have different opinions as to what the "official" or "correct" doctrine is (as is true with my questions).

Good luck in your own studies Firedragon.

Clear
φινεφιω
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Hello @Clear
Deeje meant no harm by her question.
"Why are you so hung up on being the original person", is just another way of saying "Why are you clinging to" or "Why is original even an issue".
We don't often put words the way others may want, or prefer, so sometimes due to our varying sensitivities, we may react. The time will come when these things will be permanently corrected.

If I may try to emphasize what Deeje said. The soul is the person. Our characteristics, personality, which is developed throughout our life, is part of that person. Our desires, motives, heart driven thoughts and intentions are a part of our person.

When a person dies, these remain with God. They are in his "memory bank"
Thus, he is the God of the living, and man can kill the body, but can never kill the soul - the person. (a) Yet the soul dies. (b c)

a (Matthew 22:32) I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.

b (Matthew 10:28) And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

c (Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls - to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

I really do hope that helped.
Please, as Deeje said, feel free to ask anything.
We do appreciate that you are asking, and none of us, including Deeje, is offended.
We hope you are not.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thank you nPeace.

I am not offended, I just think another option is going to be more efficient and accurate and less bothersome.

Still. Thank you so much.

Clear
φυτωσιω
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If a human does not have a spirit in them does that mean that the body is our soul?
The Bible does call a dead body, a dead soul.
Often when people hear the word ' spirit ' they connect that with an apparition or something ghost-like.
In Scripture the word spirit can refer to spirit persons such as angels, but also spirit can also be the spirit of life, the spark of life.
Please notice at Ecclesiastes 12:7 that man's spirit is Not connected to a spirit person because man's spirit is a neuter "it".
So, "it" returns to God in the same way a foreclosed house is returned to the hands of it's owner.
The house (it) does Not move or go anywhere but any future for that house now lies in the hands of the owner.
Thus, any future life for those dead persons, dead souls now lies in God's safe hands until Resurrection Day.
Resurrection Day meaning: Jesus' coming Millennium-Long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years. - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If a human does not have a spirit in them does that mean that the body is our soul?
The Bible does call a dead body, a dead soul.
A human does Not have a 'spirit person' inside. Angels are 'spirit persons' but angels are never humans. Humans are never angels.
People like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18; Revelation 2:10 are given a resurrected position above angels as: holy ones, saints.
People who died before Jesus (John 3:13) are never part of a heavenly resurrection as saints or holy ones but only a future earthly resurrection.
Because the people of Hebrews 11th chapter died in God's favor is why they are already considered as living in God's eyes.
Living because they surely will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to live life on Earth.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Only the wicked are 'destroyed forever' - Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalms 92:7; 104:35. No future anywhere for destroyed wicked people.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If God created a new body and installed all the memories and personality traits that identify you to you, and if He did that now, do you think there would be two Deejes or would the other one not be you?
Think of all the people Jesus resurrected.
When Jesus resurrected them they had their same memories and personality traits, so those resurrected in the future will be the same.
We will know them because they will be the same person only without physical defects, be like the people described in Isaiah 35th chapter
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thank you nPeace.

I am not offended, I just think another option is going to be more efficient and accurate and less bothersome.

Still. Thank you so much.

Clear
φυτωσιω
Bothersome? Not a bother at all.
However, if you prefer a PM, that's no problem to any of us.
I'd be happy to do that, and I am sure any one of us would be able to answer your questions, with clarity.

Tell me though... did my answer not help clarify the previous answers?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi nPeace
I appreciate your offer to PM.
I PM'd you for clarification.

Thanks.

Clear
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's true. However God can make a copy of us any time He likes. If it happens before death then it is easier to see that it is just a copy. If it happens after death, it is still just a copy.
What????
confused0007.gif
Why would God want to make a copy of me if I am still alive??? :facepalm:

A real resurrection cannot happen until the person dies however, because it requires the spirit part of that person, the part that is the essence of the person, to re-inhabit a body, and thus make that body alive.

Where does it say this in the Bible?
The "spirit" is not the "soul". The "spirit" animates the "soul". It is not a conscious entity by itself.....its like the electricity that powers an appliance. Death switches the spirit off....like David said at Psalm 146:4

"When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing."
(NIV)

"When his breath departs, he returns to the earth;
on that very day his plans perish."
(ESV)

"Spirit" here is "ruwach" translated "spirit" but referring to the "breath" of living things. It is breathing that keeps us alive. Adam "became" a "soul" when God started him breathing. The air in our lungs oxygenates our cells and the soul that is you and me, lives. When the breath departs (we breathe our last breath) the soul (man or animal) dies. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) The "spirit" in living souls is not a conscious entity. "The dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) Dead means dead....the opposite of alive. Where does it say that at death we continue to live?

Jesus claimed that part exists when He said that the soul is not killed at the death of the body (Matt 10:28) and when He said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still living because Moses said that God is the God of the living and not the dead.

"He is eimi not ou God theos · de of the dead nekros, but alla of the living zaō! For gar to him autos they are all pas alive zaō.” (Luke 20:38 Mounce Interlinear)

Lets be clear here.....no one went to heaven before Jesus.

John 3:13...
"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man".

If no one went to heaven before Jesus, then where were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive? Answer from scripture please.

It says as far as God was concerned, they were still living. But all who knew them, saw that they had died....and the ancient Jews had no belief in life after death....they believed in physical resurrection which Jesus and his apostles demonstrated whilst they were on earth.

The Sadducees, who did not believe in spirit (like the JWs) could see that there could not be a resurrection without one.

Acts 23:8 states: “Sadducees say there is neither resurrection nor angel nor spirit, but the Pharisees publicly declare them all.” If the Sadducees were followers of the Hebrew scriptures, then denying the resurrection and angels makes them like JW's in what way? The ancient Jews did not believe in an immortal soul or spirit....that was accepted later under Hellenic influence. Jesus never taught that we have a conscious part of us that leaves the body at death.

Paul claimed that when he spoke of us our body as a tent and that we could be away from it and with the Lord or could be in it, and that it would be replaced with an immortal one. (2Cor:1-10)

Paul was talking about his fellow anointed "joint-heirs with Christ". These were the "us". (Romans 8:17) These were the ones who were selected by God for rulership and priesthood positions in heaven. Not all had "the heavenly calling". (Revelation 20:6; Hebrews 3:1)

And of course there are many other places with a similar teaching about our indwelling spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is the totality of us when we are dead and so it seems that is why it is called our soul when we are dead.
For this to be true, it does not mean that the soul is immortal. Just that it does not die at the death of the body. It dies at the second death if that is the verdict.

There is more than one meaning of the word "spirit"....Ruʹach (Hebrews) and pneuʹma, (Greek) basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

The second death is the one from which there is no resurrection.

Sleeping implied that the person still exists and there has to be something/someone to hear Jesus calling them to resurrect. :)
It certainly looks to me that God brings the souls of the dead in Christ back with Jesus when Jesus returns, so that they can be resurrected. (1Thess 4:14-16)

"Sleeping" implies a lack of consciousness. It conveys a period of time where the individual is conscious of nothing around them....not even how long they have slept. We need to look at a clock to see if we have slept for minutes, hours or even longer.

Where did Jesus call Lazarus from? Where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14)

Just because something looks a certain way to you because you want to believe it, does not mean that scripture agrees with you. Those "sleeping in death" were not to 'come to life' until Christ's return. It is not the 'souls' that Christ brings with him, but those who are already resurrected at the time of the judgment.....he then collects the rest of his anointed who are still earthbound at that time, and transforms them into spirit beings in order to join him in heaven......the place he has "prepared" for them.

You are conflating these two words again. The "soul" is the whole living breathing person or creature....the "spirit" that animates all of the souls on earth, is their breath....
 
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