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If god can be proven

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Trust is better than distrust for a love relationship to endure and last -- in that distrust misreads things, increases conflicts, and fails to see what is good.

"Faith" or "belief" is simply "trust in the Good, before it is seen or present".

So, you see, that is why 'trust' before the good arrives is valuable, and that's why "faith" is valuable, even above the very valuable thing "knowledge".

I disagree.

Trust should be based off evidence that someone is trustworthy. There is no point in trusting in something that hasn't been proven, as that type of trust is based off of emotion and feelings, and not tangible practical evidence.

The problem one has with attempting to trust an unproven god is that on top of struggling with with belief in what they will do, there is also the doubt that comes with contemplating whether your god is actually real or not. With something like prayer, it would be way more beneficial to speak to a god that you can actually have a conversation with than praying and then not having it speak back to you, which is often what causes people to doubt their beliefs.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?
It depends what God we prove. If we prove a God Who detests religious practices, it would be probably rational not to practice them.

Ciao

- viole
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?

Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If you don't believe in god, please entertain the thought with some valuable insight.

I think that would obviously depend on which god it concerns and what that god wants humans to do, and what he/she/it will do to those humans who don't obey him.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Why would a God need worship? It sounds pretty small.

Plenty of humans demand to be worshipped.
Why wouldn't a god? Unlike certain popular beliefs, I don't see why gods would necessarily have to be these "perfect" beings that are "totally at peace" without any such "emotional needs" and who are perfectly benevolent and all that.

Why couldn't a god be a petty narcistic fool, like a Trump or a Kim Jong Un or a Putin?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?

Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If you don't believe in god, please entertain the thought with some valuable insight.
Proving gods existence and proving the peeves and perks of ritual are two entirely different things.
Believers don't just believe that a god exists, they also believe in an afterlife (or not), in the attributes of the god(s), in the validity of scripture, in the correct way to worship, etc. These things are all independent from each other. In fact they are so independent that a believer is able to hold conflicting beliefs.
Believes come in truckloads, once you start believing one thing, you soon have a collection.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?

Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If you don't believe in god, please entertain the thought with some valuable insight.
If a god could be proven (a mighty big if) I'd accept it/him/her.
BUT I wouldn't start worshipping or bootlicking them.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?
That would depend on the nature of the god that was discovered to be real and the nature of the existing religious practices.

A lot of current religious practice is based on the belief, even the assertion, that a specific god exists and wants or expect us to behave in particular ways, including religious practices. In that context, I wouldn't expect that god being proven to exist would change anything for those followers.

Other religious practice, especially outside structured religions, can involve seeking and trying to understand things, including the existence and nature of god (or gods). If a specific god were unquestionably proven to exist, that kind of religious practice would be rendered fairly pointless, or at least be altered significantly.

In general, I'd expect that if the existence of a specific god was someone definitively proven to everyone (not that I see that as possible), especially if it was an interventionist god in any way, it would have such a massive impact on the entirety of human existence that the consequences for religious practice would just be one small side issue.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?

Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If you don't believe in god, please entertain the thought with some valuable insight.
Religious practices are for those who have already found God. Worship is entirely voluntary.

Are parents important in a childs life while the child is still alive? The spirit born sons and daughters of the most high have a relationship with God now and forever more.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?

Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If you don't believe in god, please entertain the thought with some valuable insight.

I suppose it would depend on the purpose of the religious practice. If the practice is for the purpose of Self-realization, I don't see how the proof of a deity would make that practice obsolete.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?...

I am not sure what do you mean with religious practices. In Biblical point of view people should love others as themselves. If God would be 100 % true, I think that same would still be the right thing. And I think it would be right thing, even if God would not exist.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Claims that god has no needs/wants...
Proceeds to claim with what god wants....


Uhu
I said: "God has no needs so God does not need our worship. God wants us to worship Him only for our own benefit."

Wants are wants and needs are needs. They are not the same. I never said God does not have wants, I said God has no needs.

God has no needs, and God wants nothing for Himself, but God wants what is best for humans.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136


“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Trust should be based off evidence that someone is trustworthy.
First let me acknowledge this statement, and also that I've heard it from many people, so it's a widespread reply to 'faith being to trust in something before it is seen'.

Now, there is an kind of evidence (suggestive, or for some even a kind of powerful indication) that there is at least something that is a good one can see ahead of time (put some initial small beginning trust into), in Christ's central and clearly emphasized words which He himself highlights as central. For example:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

(of course it is good to treat others as well as you want them to treat yourself. To do for them what you'd want done for you if you were in their very specific situation they are in -- in their shoes).

Or:

Mark 12:31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."

(to love your neighbor is 1 of the 2 "great commandments", those singled out as above the level of all other commandments)

So, there is a kind of evidence of 'good' to initially put a certain initial level of trust in, according to your life experience or such, to the extent you can recognize why these are extremely beneficial -- humanistically good.

There is no point in trusting in something that hasn't been proven

We actually agree on that fully. As I see it, initial 'faith' is a 'leap of faith' -- precisely like....

...what you would need to establish any relationship past that with your own mother.

In order to establish friendships or a lasting love, with anyone practically, you need an ability to take some modest, moderate leap of faith, trust, on a modest level -- more than zero trust. (if you continued over time to have zero trust, you'd never give an opening to real friendship to the person, not even after months....)

So, that "trusting in something that hasn't been proven" is crucial, necessary to ordinary life, such as to finding a spouse.
 

Baroodi

Active Member
The manufacturer of any item supplies toy with the catalogue to show how to operate the item. If God is proven he need to supply such a catalogue to set the rules of the house, this is religion.
 

alypius

Active Member
Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If one knew that God existed and was the source of all good things in life, wouldn't he or she establish habitual patterns of thanksgiving to God throughout life?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If one knew that God existed and was the source of all good things in life, wouldn't he or she establish habitual patterns of thanksgiving to God throughout life?

If he existed and showed himself, say for a serious example, if he were like casper the friendly ghost, would they still give thanks?

In other words, many believers live off faith. If god exist, they don't need faith. But they rather have faith than knowledge since knowledge for many is more an earthly thing. Faith and spiritual experiences are not.

Knowledge undermines their faith.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I got this from another thread. If god can be proven with 100% certainty, would there be a need for religious practices?

Even more so, would god have any importance in a person's life while alive, if god could be proven outside one's subjective experiences?

If you don't believe in god, please entertain the thought with some valuable insight.

I don't think that you are talking about proving God then having no use for God.

I think that you are suggesting that God might be proven to exist outside of influence in our lives (even God could not bridge the gap or barrier to help us).

If so, that means that God, himself, is not able to help us (which would explain why God allows people to suffer with cancer and not answer prayers). But, God also wrote laws for us to follow to keep us good and healthy. So, even without God, himself, God's laws still are there to protect and serve.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
First let me acknowledge this statement, and also that I've heard it from many people, so it's a widespread reply to 'faith being to trust in something before it is seen'.

Now, there is an kind of evidence (suggestive, or for some even a kind of powerful indication) that there is at least something that is a good one can see ahead of time (put some initial small beginning trust into), in Christ's central and clearly emphasized words which He himself highlights as central. For example:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

(of course it is good to treat others as well as you want them to treat yourself. To do for them what you'd want done for you if you were in their very specific situation they are in -- in their shoes).

Or:

Mark 12:31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."

(to love your neighbor is 1 of the 2 "great commandments", those singled out as above the level of all other commandments)

So, there is a kind of evidence of 'good' to initially put a certain initial level of trust in, according to your life experience or such, to the extent you can recognize why these are extremely beneficial -- humanistically good.



We actually agree on that fully. As I see it, initial 'faith' is a 'leap of faith' -- precisely like....

...what you would need to establish any relationship past that with your own mother.

In order to establish friendships or a lasting love, with anyone practically, you need an ability to take some modest, moderate leap of faith, trust, on a modest level -- more than zero trust. (if you continued over time to have zero trust, you'd never give an opening to real friendship to the person, not even after months....)

So, that "trusting in something that hasn't been proven" is crucial, necessary to ordinary life, such as to finding a spouse.

I like this response.

I agree with your first point, because through experience we can see goodness in others. We can also see when a person is someone to stay away from. It is all in body language, intuition and experience.

And yes, with anybody we have to take a leap of faith at first. But through engaging with that person your trust in them grows.

Now, I take it that you took a leap of faith in trusting god at the beginning and then through experience your trust in him grew?
 
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