Wouldn't it be unfair of God?

night912 · Jan 24, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
And Jehovah God doesn't assume, He knows what we are aware of.

I'm talking about you. There was no explanation in the bible, but you gave an explanation by making an assumption. If going with your way, anyone can assume and give their own explanation for anything in the bible.

So you must also accept the explanation that God told them that they will die eventhough he knows that they didn't know what "die" means. Perhaps God didn't care. So you accept that that's what really happened.

Trailblazer · Jan 25, 2021

LightofTruth said:
To die spiritually is an invention of man. The Bible never says anything about Adam or anyone else as dying spiritually.

The Bible does not have to say "die spiritually" in order for the Bible to MEAN that. The Bible does not say "die physically "either, but Christians just assumed that is what the Bible meant.

LightofTruth said:
When Adam ate of the tree he was sentenced to death....on that very day, Adam came under the death sentence.
And all who are born into this world are under the same death sentence as Adam.

Every human born is subject to death and has been long before Adam and Eve, since some form of humans have existed on earth for 200,000 years. People are born and then they die, because God made our bodies that way, as mortal.

I do not believe in Adam and Eve is a true story, I believe it was an allegorical story. I believe that according to the story, the death they experienced symbolizes a spiritual death because they were barred from the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is symbolic for the Word of God, the Reality of Christ which bestows spiritual life. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

LightofTruth said:
That death sentence says that Adam was dust (made from the earth) and to dust he would return. And the spirit or breath of life that animated the man of dust returns to God.

That is true, the body of Adam returned to dust, but the spirit (soul) of Adam returned to God in the spiirtual realm (heaven).

LightofTruth said:
We thank God, through Jesus, that there is to be a resurrection of the dead whereby faithful ones in Christ will receive eternal life. And if there was no resurrection of the dead, then the faith of the Christian would be in vane or worthless as Paul says. That's because, if the dead do not rise, they say dead and in the grave.

I believe that the faithful ones in Christ will receive eternal life, but as I said above eternal life means nearness to God through Christ, it has nothing to do with a physical body living forever.

If you want to know how I interpret the Resurrection of the Dead, you can read my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 that I posted to Skywalker #515 Trailblazer.

LightofTruth · Jan 25, 2021

c

Trailblazer said:
The Bible does not have to say "die spiritually" in order for the Bible to MEAN that. The Bible does not say "die physically "either, but Christians just assumed that is what the Bible meant.

Every human born is subject to death and has been long before Adam and Eve, since some form of humans have existed on earth for 200,000 years. People are born and then they die, because God made our bodies that way, as mortal.

I do not believe in Adam and Eve is a true story, I believe it was an allegorical story. I believe that according to the story, the death they experienced symbolizes a spiritual death because they were barred from the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is symbolic for the Word of God, the Reality of Christ which bestows spiritual life. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

That is true, the body of Adam returned to dust, but the spirit (soul) of Adam returned to God in the spiirtual realm (heaven).

I believe that the faithful ones in Christ will receive eternal life, but as I said above eternal life means nearness to God through Christ, it has nothing to do with a physical body living forever.

If you want to know how I interpret the Resurrection of the Dead, you can read my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 that I posted to Skywalker #515 Trailblazer.

We need to be careful when studying the Scriptures because men have been adding, changing and removing words from the them in order to suit their false doctrines.

A good example of this is Acts 2:27 where many translations have removed the word "soul".

thomas t · Jan 25, 2021

LightofTruth said:
c

We need to be careful when studying the Scriptures because men have been adding, changing and removing words from the them in order to suit their false doctrines.

A good example of this is Acts 2:27 where many translations have removed the word "soul".

if there is an issue with translations: Koine Greek is the arbiter.
In this case, we need to work with an interlinear translation and try to look at the dictionary as to know what the word may mean in context.
So translations shouldn't be an obstacle, I think.
Today, we can see which words man added and which ones he left in place when he translated from Koine Greek. all the information is there.

LightofTruth · Jan 25, 2021

thomas t said:
if there is an issue with translations: Koine Greek is the arbiter.
In this case, we need to work with an interlinear translation and try to look at the dictionary as to know what the word may mean in context.
So translations shouldn't be an obstacle, I think.
Today, we can see which words man added and which ones he left in place when he translated from Koine Greek. all the information is there.

David was a prophet who spoke of the resurrection of Christ when he says that Jesus' soul was not left in the grave.
But the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Therefore, the soul and spirit are NOT the same thing!
It is only false doctrine which makes them to be the same thing.

Jesus had become a living soul by having the breath or spirit of life in him. just as Adam had become a living soul after God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life.

When Jesus died his dead soul was put into the grave and his spirit or breath of life returned to God. The spirit or breath of life is what animates the soul whereby the soul becomes a living soul.

thomas t · Jan 25, 2021

LightofTruth said:
David was a prophet who spoke of the resurrection of Christ when he says that Jesus' soul was not left in the grave.
But the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Therefore, the soul and spirit are NOT the same thing!

I agree.
However, just saying that interpretations are flawed... came across as saying no sincere point can be made from scripture because all translations are marred by man.
I was merely referring to that.

Atheists and liberal theists sometimes say that you never can be sure about what you read in the Bible because it has been passed on by man including the changes.

LightofTruth · Jan 25, 2021

thomas t said:
I agree.
However, just saying that interpretations are flawed... came across as saying no sincere point can be made from scripture because all translations are marred by man.
I was merely referring to that.

Atheists and liberal Theists sometimes say that you never can be sure about what you read in the Bible because it has been passed on by man including tha changes.

Here's another example (there are many) where man's doctrine has been passed into the Scripture.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Notice the word 'breath' is the word 'ruach'.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The same word 'ruach' is now translated as 'spirit'.

This becomes vey simple to understand when one is education in the Scripture.

Both man and animal all have the same breath. They both breathe the same air. And therefore neither has an advantage over the other. They both die and return to their native earth.

However, God can raise man from the dead whereby his breath can be return to him and he can live again. But animals are not raised from the dead, so their spirit or breath is not returned to them. it goes down to the earth with their dead soul(nephesh).

LightofTruth · Jan 25, 2021

When Jesus died he had committed his spirit or breath of life to the Father and his dead soul was put in the grave. When Jesus was raised from the dead his spirit or breath returned to him from God who gives it and his soul became alive again and came out of the grave.

This truth has been lost because man holds to false doctrine and changes words to suit their false doctrines.

Adam was created in the image of God. And when God breathed into Adam the spirit or breath of life Adam became a living soul. When Adam's spirit or breath left him, Adam died and was therefore no longer a living soul.

This is very easy to understand unless one has been sold false ideas. They then become confused and will tell you that spirit and soul are the same thing. And they will then change the Scripture in order that it fits their false ideas rather than learning the truth.

Trailblazer · Jan 25, 2021

LightofTruth said:
We need to be careful when studying the Scriptures because men have been adding, changing and removing words from the them in order to suit their false doctrines.

A good example of this is Acts 2:27 where many translations have removed the word "soul".

Thanks for pointing that out. I looked that verses up and looked at all the different English translations. Since there are so many different translations how can one know which translation is the correct one? I usually go with the KJV but sometimes I go with the NIV.

I have been posting to Christians for many years and I have come to realize that their whole idea of what the soul is stems from one verse, but you can correct me if you think I am wrong or if you have anything to add..

Genesis 2:7
King James Version

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I believe this verse is correct but that it has been misinterpreted and thus misunderstood. Some Christians believe that because man became a living soul that means that the soul can die when man dies, but the reason it says "man became a living soul" is because in order to live one needs a soul. At least in this material realm of existence man needs a physical body to live, but it is the soul that animates the body an allows it to function. A man becomes a living soul at the moment of conception, and then the body begins to develop in the womb. From the moment of conception, it is the soul that is responsible for life since it animates the human body and allows it to function. A living being is a living soul because it is the soul that makes us a living being.

Genesis 2:7
New International Version
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because of some Bible verses that say the soul can die, some Christians believe that the actual soul can die or that it can be lost, but what those verses actually mean is that the soul will not have eternal life.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body, since the physical body is subject to physical death whereas the soul is immortal.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Since the soul is immortal, all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

Now the following verse makes sense because those souls who do not go to heaven will go to hell, which is not a place but rather a state of the soul that does not know God and/or is distant from God..

Acts 2:27
King James Version
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Trailblazer · Jan 25, 2021

LightofTruth said:
David was a prophet who spoke of the resurrection of Christ when he says that Jesus' soul was not left in the grave.
But the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Therefore, the soul and spirit are NOT the same thing!
It is only false doctrine which makes them to be the same thing.

I guess you are referring to this verse:

Psalm 16:10
King James Version
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Spirit can mean more than one thing depending upon the context in the Bible verse, but when referred to in the context of the the afterlife, a spirit is the same thing as a soul. Thus the spirit (soul) crosses over to the spiritual world when the body dies and the spirit (soul) returns to God.

When David spoke of the resurrection of Christ and said he says that Jesus' soul was not left in the grave, he did not mean that it had been buried in the grave, he meant that it would not go to hell or see corruption; because a soul is immortal it never sees corruption. Rather, all humans, including Christ, are buried in natural bodies and raised in spiritual bodies. Spiritual bodies cannot see corruption because they are immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:44 New Living Translation
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

LightofTruth said:
Jesus had become a living soul by having the breath or spirit of life in him. just as Adam had become a living soul after God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life.

As I said in my last post, a living soul is a living being, because it is the soul that gives life and allows the body to function, so a living soul is synonymous with a living being:

Genesis 2:7
New International Version
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

LightofTruth said:
When Jesus died his dead soul was put into the grave and his spirit or breath of life returned to God. The spirit or breath of life is what animates the soul whereby the soul becomes a living soul.

A soul cannot be put in the grave because it is immaterial. Only a body can be put in the grave.

LightofTruth · Jan 25, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Thanks for pointing that out. I looked that verses up and looked at all the different English translations. Since there are so many different translations how can one know which translation is the correct one? I usually go with the KJV but sometimes I go with the NIV.

I have been posting to Christians for many years and I have come to realize that their whole idea of what the soul is stems from one verse, but you can correct me if you think I am wrong or if you have anything to add..

Genesis 2:7
King James Version

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I believe this verse is correct but that it has been misinterpreted and thus misunderstood. Some Christians believe that because man became a living soul that means that the soul can die when man dies, but the reason it says "man became a living soul" is because in order to live one needs a soul. At least in this material realm of existence man needs a physical body to live, but it is the soul that animates the body an allows it to function. A man becomes a living soul at the moment of conception, and then the body begins to develop in the womb. From the moment of conception, it is the soul that is responsible for life since it animates the human body and allows it to function. A living being is a living soul because it is the soul that makes us a living being.

Genesis 2:7
New International Version

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because of some Bible verses that say the soul can die, some Christians believe that the actual soul can die or that it can be lost, but what those verses actually mean is that the soul will not have eternal life.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body, since the physical body is subject to physical death whereas the soul is immortal.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Since the soul is immortal, all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

Now the following verse makes sense because those souls who do not go to heaven will go to hell, which is not a place but rather a state of the soul that does not know God and/or is distant from God..

Acts 2:27
King James Version

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

When it's said that the soul can die it means that the soul is immortal(deathless) and will continue to exist?

But when it's said that the body dies it means the body is no longer living?

Trailblazer · Jan 25, 2021

LightofTruth said:
When it's said that the soul can die it means that the soul is immortal(deathless) and will continue to exist?

I'd need to see the specific verses because I am very methodical and analytical.
But off the top of my head, any verses that say the soul can die mean that the soul can lose eternal life.

Logically speaking, if a soul gains eternal life from believing in Jesus, as Jesus said, then those who do not believe in Jesus will lose eternal life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

However, a soul can continue to exist in the spiritual world without having eternal life, and that is what hell is all about.
All souls continue to exist in the spiritual world but only some souls have eternal life in heaven.

LightofTruth said:
But when it's said that the body dies it means the body is no longer living?

Yes. it means exactly that, because bodies can and do die and all bodies die eventually.

The Bible teaches that if we are faithful to God we will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him; but if we fail, however, in our allegiance to our Creator, we will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths. That is what Jesus was saying in Matthew 16:24-26, which is no different from what my religion teaches. Becoming a victim to self and passion, and, in the end, sinking in their depths is an apt description of going to hell.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

LightofTruth · Jan 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I'd need to see the specific verses because I am very methodical and analytical.
But off the top of my head, any verses that say the soul can die mean that the soul can lose eternal life.

Logically speaking, if a soul gains eternal life from believing in Jesus, as Jesus said, then those who do not believe in Jesus will lose eternal life.

When a soul dies, the person dies. Unless a person "believes in him" (the son) he will not be rewarded with eternal life but will die the death that was imposed upon Adam. "in Adam all have sinned"....."all are dust and return to dust". "The wages of sin is death".

Adam's sin has condemned all like him to die. "In Adam all die"

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 1 Cor 15: 21,22

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Rom 5:12

So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. Rom 5:18

In the Scripture, the soul simply refers to the person. A dead soul is a person who died.
A living soul is a person who is alive.

death means dead.
alive means living.

People bring confusion when they say "dead means, to continue to exist"

LightofTruth · Jan 26, 2021

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6 4:5 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I can't see how anyone could claim that death means "continuing to exist". Death means, to be dead. Life means to be living.

Trailblazer · Jan 26, 2021

LightofTruth said:
When a soul dies, the person dies. Unless a person "believes in him" (the son) he will not be rewarded with eternal life but will die the death that was imposed upon Adam. "in Adam all have sinned"....."all are dust and return to dust". "The wages of sin is death".

A soul cannot die because it is immortal. Only a body can die because it is mortal.

LightofTruth said:
Adam's sin has condemned all like him to die. "In Adam all die"

Adam's sin condemned him to die spiritually. Adam would have died physically regardless of his sin.

LightofTruth said:
In the Scripture, the soul simply refers to the person. A dead soul is a person who died.
A living soul is a person who is alive.

The soul cannot die because it is immortal. A body dies because it is mortal.
A person living on earth needs a soul and a body to live, and that makes him a person.
After the body of a person dies his soul crosses over to the spiritual world and continues to live because it is not the body that makes a man a man, it is his soul (spirit).

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

When we die our physical body returns to the earth and our spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever in a spiritual body. As Paul said: "our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die."

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Trailblazer · Jan 26, 2021

LightofTruth said:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I can't see how anyone could claim that death means "continuing to exist". Death means, to be dead. Life means to be living.

In Rom 6:23 and Rom 8:6 Paul was referring to spiritual death, NOT physical death.

After our physical body dies, we are raised as spiritual bodies which take their flight from earth and continue to exist in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

LightofTruth · Jan 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
A soul cannot die because it is immortal. Only a body can die because it is mortal.

I'm simply going by what the Bible says. The Bible never using the terms 'immortal soul' or 'never dying soul' or anything like it.
In fact, it say that we are to seek for immortality. Rom 2:7

Trailblazer said:
Adam's sin condemned him to die spiritually. Adam would have died physically regardless of his sin.

Again, I'm only going by what the Bible says. it does not say Adam died 'spiritually'. It says that he was dust and that he would return to dust.

Adam didn't die right away but he came under the death sentence on the very day he ate of the tree. He was, on that day, a condemned man.
Even today we speak of condemned men as being "dead men walking". It's the same principle..

Trailblazer said:
The soul cannot die because it is immortal. A body dies because it is mortal.
A person living on earth needs a soul and a body to live, and that makes him a person.
After the body of a person dies his soul crosses over to the spiritual world and continues to live because it is not the body that makes a man a man, it is his soul (spirit).

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

When we die our physical body returns to the earth and our spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Having that idea is why people have confused the words 'soul ' and 'spirit'. They think the soul and spirit of a man are both immortal and therefore refer to the same thing.

To understand the difference correctly is to see that Adam BECAME a living soul when the spirit or breath of life entered into his soul. The soul(the person) returns to dust and the breath or spirit that God gave him in order that he become a living soul returns to God.
Adam was aliving soul when he became animated by the breath of life. Animals are also called living souls. And they have the same breath as man.

Trailblazer said:
The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever in a spiritual body. As Paul said: "our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die."

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194X

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead when the faithful will be raised with a spiritual body as opposed to the natural body they had when they died.

When he says "we will not all die", he is referring to those who will be translated at Christ's coming. They will be alive when they are transformed to a spiritual body.[/QUOTE]

LightofTruth · Jan 26, 2021

Trailblazer said:
In Rom 6:23 and Rom 8:6 Paul was referring to spiritual death, NOT physical death.

After our physical body dies, we are raised as spiritual bodies which take their flight from earth and continue to exist in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Another false idea(IMO) is that the immortal soul ("the real man himself") will be reunited with a body when the body is raised from the dead.

Where does the Bible say anything like that?

dybmh · Jan 26, 2021

LightofTruth said:
Another false idea(IMO) is that the immortal soul ("the real man himself") will be reunited with a body when the body is raised from the dead.

Where does the Bible say anything like that?

Ezekiel 37:6-10 ?

Trailblazer · Jan 26, 2021

LightofTruth said:
I'm simply going by what the Bible says. The Bible never using the terms 'immortal soul' or 'never dying soul' or anything like it.
In fact, it say that we are to seek for immortality. Rom 2:7

The Bible does not use those phrases in conjunction but the the truth is all embedded in the Bible, if you understand the meaning of the verses and couple that with reason and common sense..

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Since the physical body is not immortal, that means one cannot live forever in a physical body. Eternal life can have more than one meaning, depending upon the verse and its context. It can mean living forever or it can mean a quality of life of being near to God or it can mean both, and you have to look at verses in order to understand what other verses mean.

The following verses are all saying essentially the same thing. Jesus is saying that anyone who believes in Him will never die, so they will have eternal life. That means two things: Eternal life is the state of the soul who is near to God so they will be close to God; but they will also live forever in the spiritual world where they will be close to God because the soul cannot die.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

LightofTruth said:
Again, I'm only going by what the Bible says. it does not say Adam died 'spiritually'. It says that he was dust and that he would return to dust.

Adam did return to dust so he did die physically, but because he sinned by disobeying God, he also died spiritually.

LightofTruth said:
Adam didn't die right away but he came under the death sentence on the very day he ate of the tree. He was, on that day, a condemned man.
Even today we speak of condemned men as being "dead men walking". It's the same principle..

Adam was condemned to spiritual death because he disobeyed God, according to the story, but the important point is that the physical body of Adam would have died anyway, since all physical bodies die eventually.

LightofTruth said:
Having that idea is why people have confused the words 'soul ' and 'spirit'. They think the soul and spirit of a man are both immortal and therefore refer to the same thing.

To understand the difference correctly is to see that Adam BECAME a living soul when the spirit or breath of life entered into his soul. The soul(the person) returns to dust and the breath or spirit that God gave him in order that he become a living soul returns to God.
Adam was a living soul when he became animated by the breath of life. Animals are also called living souls. And they have the same breath as man.

All your misunderstandings stem from one verse whcih you misunderstand.

Adam became a living being when he was created and the soul entered his body, at the moment of conception, just as we all become living beings when we are conceived. That verse should never have been translated to say "a living soul" because that has caused so many misunderstandings and led people to believe that a soul is living thing so it can die. We do not "become" a soul because we are a soul, a soul with a body.

After the body dies, the body of the person returns to dust and the breath or spirit that God gave him (which is the soul) returns to God and it is at that time that the soul takes on a new form, a spiritual body. That is what Paul meant when he spoke of the resurrection of the dead when the faithful will be raised with a spiritual body.

Genesis 2:7, NIV: "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Genesis 2:7, ESV: "then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."

Genesis 2:7, KJV: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Genesis 2:7, NASB: "Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person."

Genesis 2:7, NLT: "Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person."

Genesis 2:7, CSB: "Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being."

LightofTruth said:
Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead when the faithful will be raised with a spiritual body as opposed to the natural body they had when they died.

When he says "we will not all die", he is referring to those who will be translated at Christ's coming. They will be alive when they are transformed to a spiritual body.

Please cite the verses that you believe say that and I will tell you what I think they mean.

The same Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago is not coming back to earth, but that is a different subject altogether, although it ties in with your belief regarding being translated so I thought I should mention it.

Wouldn't it be unfair of God?

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

non-denominational Christian

Well-Known Member

non-denominational Christian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Veteran Member