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Animals, spirit world in Baha'i

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What these verses mean to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Everyone will believe in God and eventually, there will be only one religion.

Well, that is certainly optimistic, given man's track record in that regard. The only way to stop the rot is to get rid of those who cause it. That is what Armageddon is for.....it is the war that will end all wars. It is the forces of good and evil in one final showdown....and we already know who the losers are.

I believe that the Garden of Eden was only an allegory, and many liberal Christians agree with me. There was never any such place as the Garden of Eden, nor were there an Adam and Eve who disobeyed God. This just reminded me of what I read in an article about the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

You can believe whatever you wish....but it won't make it true. If you back the wrong horse in this race, you lose everything you have staked on it. It’s a big gamble, but I believe that we are all being tested, and where we put our faith tells God who we are and whether we qualify as citizens of his incoming kingdom. It isn’t about labels, it’s about obedience.....it always has been.
Jesus likened the time of his return to the days of Noah....filled with violence and immorality. He said that even though Noah warned the people of God’s intentions, “they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away”......there was only one place of safety and everyone outside of the ark, perished. What is the lesson? Only those who obeyed in all things, as difficult as they were, survived. (Matthew 7:13-14)

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

LOL...Spong? Really? I don't care what others believe or what doubts they entertain.....I know what I believe from years of study, and I have no reason to doubt the writings inspired by my God.......do you doubt the writings of your prophet? Are you willing to stake your life and future on the words of a man who had no credentials....a mere mortal who had no way to prove who he believed himself to be. Jesus himself warned about false prophets who would mislead many. Jesus and his apostles are our prophets. The entirety of God’s word is our textbook. We need nothing else.

All Christians believe that they have the Truth but the problem is that they do not agree on what that Truth is, yet all of them are reading the same Bible. Logically speaking, that means that some or all of the Christians are wrong. Maybe some Christians are right, but there is no reason to believe they are right just because they cite a bunch of verses and claim to know what they mean. All Christians make such claims and since they disagree they cannot all be right.

That is absolutely true. They cannot all be right and this ties in with what Jesus said.....he foretold that at the judgment....
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

Many who claim Jesus as their Lord will come to bitter disappointment as those whom Christ has NEVER known and whom he rejects entirely......and those who follow the teachings of false Christs, will not fare any better.

Time will tell.....won’t it?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
John 5:28-29 is Jesus telling us that he will call all the dead from their tombs. He does not call them from heaven, but back to life on earth, demonstrated clearly by his resurrection of Lazarus, who was called from his s tomb and reunited with his family and friends. (John 11:11-14)
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I do not believe these verses are about a bodily resurrection. Jesus did not say he will call all the dead bodies from their graves. The verses are about a spiritual resurrection to spiritual life. Those who were spiritually dead will be resurrected to spiritual life (which is the same thing as eternal life). That is the same thing that Jesus was saying about Lazarus.

The spiritual interpretation follows the resurrection of Lazarus.

John 11

Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die. He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body. Whoever believes in Jesus will never die because they will have eternal life.

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”


The Martha said Yes, I believe in you Jesus: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

The following verses are congruent with John 11:25-26 and they refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All of the restoration prophesies in Isaiah are about the future.

Isaiah 2:2-4....
"In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it all the nations will stream.

3 And many peoples will go and say:

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
To the house of the God of Jacob.

He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.

For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.

4 He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.

Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore."


"The final part of the days" are about the times we are living in now.
Those who are true followers of Jesus have already fulfilled this prophesy. They have already beaten their swords into plowshares and refuse to "learn war anymore". They obey Jesus in being “no part of the world”...not involving ourselves in political issues as citizens of God’s kingdom first, not man’s. (John 18:36)
You are correct in saying that Isaiah 2:2-4 prophecies are about what would happen in the future, and they were referring to the End Times. The End Times are when we would see the end of an age and the beginning of a new age. That new age arrived in 1863 and it will continue for at least 1000 years. It is often referred to as the Messianic Age because all the Old Testament prophecies will be fulfilled during this age.

In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia
"In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it all the nations will stream.
Isaiah 2:2 has already been fulfilled as the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) has been established on the top of Mount Carmel.

feature-img.jpg


The Seat of the Universal House of Justice sits at the apex of an arc on Mount Carmel.
3 And many peoples will go and say:

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
To the house of the God of Jacob.

He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.

For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:3 has also been fulfilled because God has instructed us in His ways and the Law has gone out of Zion.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. 90 At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90
An horrendous time of trouble was foretold by Jesus (Matthew 24:21) and by the apostle Paul as well.....
2 Timothy 3:1-5
"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away."

Can you not see the fulfillment? These words apply in our day more pointedly than in any other time period in history.
I do see it. We are in the Last Days, the end times, which is the age in which the Kingdom of God will be built on earth and all the Messianic Age prophecies will be fulfilled.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Here is a classic example of quoting scripture without any idea of what it means.
If you aren't a Christian, what are you doing quoting Christian scripture to Christians anyway? If you've never been a Christian, I hardly think you are in a position to judge what it says. This s is the Baha’i view of things...nothing to do with Christianity.
That ploy won’t work because this is not a Baha’i view, it is the view I get from reading what is actually written in the Bible and interpreting it. I do not need to be a Christian in order to understand what the scriptures mean. Moreover, I am sure you well know that Christians do not interpret the Bible scriptures to mean what you believe they mean, so what makes you think you have the correct interpretation? Why do most Christians believe they will go to heaven when they die, and only JWs and some other Christian sects believe they will live forever on earth? They are all reading from the same Bible.
Paul was talking to his fellow "elect"...the ones chosen by God to rule with Christ in heaven. These are a minority, who have specific positions in a heavenly government which will rule over earthly subjects. Revelation 21:2-4 is about what we can expect under that rulership. These chosen ones are said to be "kings and priests" (Revelation 20:6) so who are they to rule over?....and for whom do they intercede as priests? There are no sinners in heaven.....and kings do not rule each other.

Paul was not speaking about Christians generally but addressing that specific group.
The Bible does not SAY that Paul was talking to his fellow "elect"...the ones chosen by God to rule with Christ in heaven. The Bible does not SAY that Paul was addressing any specific group. You believe that because that is what you want to believe, what the JW organization teaches, but it is NOT in the Bible. All of your beliefs are made up by interpreting verses to suit your beliefs and NONE of it is written in the Bible. You have no idea what Rev 21:2-4 means, what the holy city, the new Jerusalem will be, but you have decided that it means what you believe it means. You have no idea what Rev 20:6 means either, what the first resurrection or the second death refers to, so just like all other Christians you have decided what you believe they mean.
Who is “we"?........Not you or me.
1 Corinthians 15:50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Obviously Paul was referring to the Christians He was addressing. If you claim to be a Christian he was addressing you. If you are a follower of Jesus, you are a Christian.

Whether you like it or not, it applies to you, because Paul was addressing all Christians -- Paul did not say “except for JWs, because you get to stay behind on earth in a physical body.”
I am not of the "elect" so I entertain no hope of going to heaven. My hope is entirely earthly and that suits me just fine. I don't want to live anywhere else. Paradise is where God programmed all humans to live.....When he selected those of "the heavenly calling" he had to override that desire and implant a new one.....a desire to leave all earthly things behind and go to heaven to be with their Lord. The "mansions" are "dwelling places", so Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for those who would rule with him in his Kingdom. Most of them are already there, ready to take over when God’s kingdom “comes”......as it must. (Matthew 6:9-10)
NOTHING that you are stating is in the Bible. Nothing in the Bible says that only the elect go to heaven and everyone else is raised from the dead to live on earth forever. Let’s face it, you don’t want to go to heaven, you want to live on earth forever so you have chosen a Christian belief form the dozens of Christian beliefs that says that is what will happen.
“Paradise is where God programmed all humans to live.....When he selected those of "the heavenly calling" he had to override that desire and implant a new one.....a desire to leave all earthly things behind and go to heaven to be with their Lord.”
All this is a made up belief. NONE of it is in the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that says that some Christians go to heaven and others remain on earth. It is a JW belief that has come about by misinterpreting many Bible verses and putting them together in order to come up with a belief system that has no basis in the Bible. Logically speaking, if it DID have a basis in the Bible, all Bible-believing Christians would believe what the JWs believe, but they don’t.

This presents a logical problem for you, one you cannot overcome without claiming that all the other Christians are wrong and only the JWs are right. Needless to say, you could never prove that is the case.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God already had a large family in the spiritual world, created to live forever there from the beginning, long before the universe existed. He created humans to live on earth....forever too. We have a purpose here....to "fill the earth and subdue it".
You are correct; God has a large family in the spiritual world created to live forever there, and God created the earth for people to live on. That is exactly what will happen; people will continue to live on earth as new generations of people are born. NOTHING in the Bible says that people will rise from their graves and continue to live on earth forever, so if you want to believe in God’s Word I suggest you rethink your beliefs; but whether or not you change your beliefs will not matter because you still won’t rise from your grave and continue to live on earth. You will die like everyone else and then cross over to the spiritual world. That is reality, whether you want to believe it or not, and it is better to know ahead of time.

I will tell you a secret now. I do not believe in the spiritual world (heaven) because I like the idea and I am looking forward to going there. I believe in it because it is supported by the Bible and the Baha’i Writings. The Baha’is call it the Abha Kingdom and they are so looking forward to going there, but I am not big on change so I would just as soon stay right where I am. Even though my life has been anything but happy, and I know the spiritual world will be much better since I believe in the promises of Baha’u’llah, I do not like change and going to unknown places forever, as forever is a long time! The rather odd thing is that I believe what Baha’u’llah wrote, I have complete faith, but I just do not like change, as it frightens me.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

He was not talking to you and me. He was talking to his fellow "joint heirs" with Christ. (Romans 8:17) These are the ones who will experience "the first resurrection". (Revelation 20:6)
AGAIN, this is just what you want to believe, but there is no basis for your believe because as I said in the last post, you have no way of knowing what the Bible means by “the first resurrection” or what it means by “priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” Moreover, you certainly have no way of knowing who the priests will be. I do not claim to know the meaning of that verse either and that is why I do not bother trying to interpret it .

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I actually believe that statement applies to you. You have no idea what the scriptures teach because they are not your scriptures. You have no claim on them as followers of a false prophet....who never was "the returned Christ" IMO.
That ploy won’t work because it is completely illogical to say I cannot understand what the Bible means as well as any Christian, and if Baha’u’llah was the one who unsealed the Book as per Daniel 12, I can understand what Christians do not understand.

Also, you tell other Christians they are wrong when they disagree with you, so it is not only because I am a Baha’i that we disagree.
These prophesies are literal, pertaining to the way life would have been if mankind had not disobeyed their Creator. This is a reversal of the way life is right now because this life was never meant to be in our experience.
That is just your personal opinion that these prophecies are literal and as such it has no more standing than my personal opinion that they are metaphorical. Much of what is in the Bible is metaphorical, as many Christians are starting to realize. There is NO reason to believe that life would have been like you imagine it was in an imaginary Garden of Eden if only Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God. Even if there was a Garden of Eden nobody but you and those who believe like you would want to live in it, frozen in time. This is simply how humans were created to live. God’s Purpose for humans is that we evolve materially and spiritually over time.
You can't possibly believe that God created the world to be like this?.....filled with pain, heartache and suffering.....?
No, I certainly do not believe that, and the whole reason that God sent Baha’u’llah was to end that pain and suffering. The salient problem is that most people have rejected Baha’u’llah thus far, so the suffering continues; but that will not always be the case as there will come a day when everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah; it just won’t be in our lifetimes.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, that is certainly optimistic, given man's track record in that regard. The only way to stop the rot is to get rid of those who cause it. That is what Armageddon is for.....it is the war that will end all wars. It is the forces of good and evil in one final showdown....and we already know who the losers are.
More beliefs… I am sure you can find some verses that you believe support that belief, there is a whole Bible to pick from so practically any belief that Christians want to hold can be supported by the careful selection of Bible verses. The logical implications are obvious but it is the nonbelievers who see them.
You can believe whatever you wish....but it won't make it true. If you back the wrong horse in this race, you lose everything you have staked on it. It’s a big gamble, but I believe that we are all being tested, and where we put our faith tells God who we are and whether we qualify as citizens of his incoming kingdom. It isn’t about labels, it’s about obedience.....it always has been.
The exact same thing applies to you but you’re not worried and I’m not worried because we both believe we are right; but we cannot both be right.
Jesus likened the time of his return to the days of Noah....filled with violence and immorality. He said that even though Noah warned the people of God’s intentions, “they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away.
Jesus was certainly right about that and of course Baha’u’llah said the same thing about the times we live in.

“Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavors exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable unto them, and aid them to accomplish that which beseemeth their station.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 216-217
”......there was only one place of safety and everyone outside of the ark, perished. What is the lesson? Only those who obeyed in all things, as difficult as they were, survived. (Matthew 7:13-14)
The question is who we are called by God to obey in this age, who will survive and who will perish.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

It says that few find the small gate and the narrow road that leads to life. But 2.4 billion people have found Jesus because that is how many Christians there are in the world.

I believe that those verses applied to Christians of 2,000 years ago when few had found Jesus but those verses are do not apply to Christians of today. Given 29% of people in the world are Christians many have entered through that gate so it must be a wide gate and a broad road, not the narrow gate that few find.

Whenever a new Messenger of God appears, He is the narrow gate by which we can attain eternal life. I believe that in every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, because it has the message and the teachings and laws that are pertinent to the present age.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate because the narrow gate is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate and It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.
LOL...Spong? Really? I don't care what others believe or what doubts they entertain.....I know what I believe from years of study, and I have no reason to doubt the writings inspired by my God.......do you doubt the writings of your prophet? Are you willing to stake your life and future on the words of a man who had no credentials....a mere mortal who had no way to prove who he believed himself to be. Jesus himself warned about false prophets who would mislead many. Jesus and his apostles are our prophets. The entirety of God’s word is our textbook. We need nothing else.
I was not suggesting that you doubt what the Bible says or that you believe what any man says, but I do suggest that you take a long hard look at the Bible and what is written in those pages and what it means.

The Bible is believed by 29% of the world population who are Christians but they all have different beliefs. That means that the Bible can have more than one meaning and that means that you might not know the correct meaning, even though you believe you do.

Baha’is do not have the same problems as Christians in deciphering the meanings of Baha’u’llah’s Writings because Baha’u’llah appointed interpreters of His Writings through His Covenant and their interpretations are authoritative and easy to understand.
That is absolutely true. They cannot all be right and this ties in with what Jesus said.....he foretold that at the judgment....
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

Many who claim Jesus as their Lord will come to bitter disappointment as those whom Christ has NEVER known and whom he rejects entirely......and those who follow the teachings of false Christs, will not fare any better.

Time will tell.....won’t it?
The hundred-dollar question is why you believe you are right and the other Christians are wrong, why you believe that you will be among the ones to whom Jesus will say “You are one of the ones I KNEW.”

Time will tell.
 
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