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Trump and the riots
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
It is NOT common for politicians to tell people to fight like hell to overturn our elections. It has never happened before to my knowledge.
But, yes, keep up with the apologetics. Years of it lead to an attempted insurrection because the TDS of a Trumpeter simply has them refusing to accept Trump has often meant what he said. No jokes, no "wasn't serious," no speaking or wondering out loud, he did mean it.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Obviously he just saw Trump at a certain angle that made him appear delighted. And Trump didn't really mean he wondered why others weren't as equally excited, he was wondering why people weren't excited by his totally peaceful speech that in no way had any suggestions people should turn violent.
But, in seriousness, I'm not surprised. One of those goons thought he was being "respectful" as he stood in the Capital building after he had stormed and occupied it with his fellow thugs.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
If it's true, then maybe Sasse can get some of the people he heard that rumor from to testify at the Senate trial, seeing as Sasse didn't actually observe what he described. But even if it's true... Why wouldn't Trump be excited about the protest? There's still an assumption that Trump was excited specifically about an invasion of the capitol or people dying or people disrespecting the law enforcement. So how do I know that this isn't yet another case of someone taking something Trump does out of context yet again? for like... the billionth time...
Obviously? In fact, he didn't see Trump at all! This eagerness to just accept a narrative is the problem. It fits what you already believe, so it must be right? And it must mean what you've already decided?
Right, you won't apologize that you are taking a Trump quote and attaching additional meaning to it. But don't worry, I apologize right now if I've gotten anything wrong at all in this discussion.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Once again, five people are dead, and you are spending your time defending the man who directly caused it.
When are you going to actually attempt to grapple with reality? How much more horrendous stuff does this guy have to do before you admit that maybe, just maybe, he's a scumbag who should never have been put in charge?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The proper reaction would have been shame and remorse at what he did. And it is quite likely that they will testify. Though there really is no need. The only reason that Trump would be excited is because he thought that there was a chance of him illegitimately holding on to the Presidency. That sort of testimony would make his guilt more obvious.
And no one took Trump out of context. His intention was clear. I do not understand how anyone can still defend the man. TDS is still very strong on the far right.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Its called "sarcasm."
I have nothing to apologize for. Trump lost. The only fighting to do was fight. I won't apologize for realizing what is plainly there.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Apparently the last time anyone stormed the building was in the War of 1812. It was the British (the enemy) that time.
This time it was American citizens.
Also, apparently the last time the National Guard had to camp out at the Capitol Building was during the Civil War.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Perhaps it's time to see Trump for who he really is.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that Trump would be excited after almost every rally he does. So a lack of context is devastating to the accusation (not to mention the lack of credibility of Sasse who, before the capitol riot, was criticizing Trump at every opportunity).
It also seems to me that Trump did express remorse at the outcome.
I'm seeing more use of this word "obvious" both from you and others. I think that's the problem. The premises are not validated because the conclusion is "obvious".
In the words of Inigo Montoya:
I'm sorry if you can't understand why people would continue to support Trump.
But you should consider giving some thought to it. Trump's approval rating increased after the Capitol Riot.
Trump's job approval rating ticks up after Capitol riot: Rasmussen poll
According to NBC polling, Trump's approval rating was approximately the same after the Capitol Riot and as it was just before the Election.
Trump approval remains stable in new NBC poll, with Republicans unmoved after Capitol violence
So while you might not understand how people can continue to support Trump and even support him more than they have before. It's a very real thing that's happening.
Trump's approval rating when he left office was 51%, which was higher than Biden's approval rating of 48%. "Obviously" that's within a margin of error, but the point remains.
My suggestion would be to stop trying to use a conclusion that you hold to be true... say "Trump is evil" and reason backwards from that to premises such as "Trump must've been excited when people died at the Capitol Riot."
It turns out that that sort of reasoning can lead to false assumptions.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, attempting to overthrow the election was and is not a problem? If not, what do you think Trump's "end game" was?It seems to me that Trump would be excited after almost every rally he does. So a lack of context is devastating to the accusation (not to mention the lack of credibility of Sasse who, before the capitol riot, was criticizing Trump at every opportunity).
It also seems to me that Trump did express remorse at the outcome.
I'm seeing more use of this word "obvious" both from you and others. I think that's the problem. The premises are not validated because the conclusion is "obvious".
In the words of Inigo Montoya:
I'm sorry if you can't understand why people would continue to support Trump.
But you should consider giving some thought to it. Trump's approval rating increased after the Capitol Riot.
Trump's job approval rating ticks up after Capitol riot: Rasmussen poll
According to NBC polling, Trump's approval rating was approximately the same after the Capitol Riot and as it was just before the Election.
Trump approval remains stable in new NBC poll, with Republicans unmoved after Capitol violence
So while you might not understand how people can continue to support Trump and even support him more than they have before. It's a very real thing that's happening.
Trump's approval rating when he left office was 51%, which was higher than Biden's approval rating of 48%. "Obviously" that's within a margin of error, but the point remains.
My suggestion would be to stop trying to use a conclusion that you hold to be true... say "Trump is evil" and reason backwards from that to premises such as "Trump must've been excited when people died at the Capitol Riot."
It turns out that that sort of reasoning can lead to false assumptions.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It seems to me that Trump would be excited after almost every rally he does. So a lack of context is devastating to the accusation (not to mention the lack of credibility of Sasse who, before the capitol riot, was criticizing Trump at every opportunity).
It also seems to me that Trump did express remorse at the outcome.
I'm seeing more use of this word "obvious" both from you and others. I think that's the problem. The premises are not validated because the conclusion is "obvious".
In the words of Inigo Montoya:
I'm sorry if you can't understand why people would continue to support Trump.
But you should consider giving some thought to it. Trump's approval rating increased after the Capitol Riot.
Trump's job approval rating ticks up after Capitol riot: Rasmussen poll
According to NBC polling, Trump's approval rating was approximately the same after the Capitol Riot and as it was just before the Election.
Trump approval remains stable in new NBC poll, with Republicans unmoved after Capitol violence
So while you might not understand how people can continue to support Trump and even support him more than they have before. It's a very real thing that's happening.
Trump's approval rating when he left office was 51%, which was higher than Biden's approval rating of 48%. "Obviously" that's within a margin of error, but the point remains.
My suggestion would be to stop trying to use a conclusion that you hold to be true... say "Trump is evil" and reason backwards from that to premises such as "Trump must've been excited when people died at the Capitol Riot."
It turns out that that sort of reasoning can lead to false assumptions.
Where is NBC getting those figures from? They do not appear to be correct at all. The approval rating of Democrats is outrageously high. That makes me think that there may be some data skewing going on. Gallup is a reliable independent source:
Last Trump Job Approval 34%; Average Is Record-Low 41%
"Trump is the only president not to register a 50% job approval rating at any point in his presidency since Gallup began measuring presidential job approval in 1938. Likewise, he is the only president who did not have a honeymoon period of above-average ratings upon taking office. His initial 45% job approval rating proved to be his high point for his first year as president."
Even FOX News mentioned this report and seemed to give it more credence than others, though they did mention the NBC/Wall Street Journal poll. And the fact that NBC is working with the Wall Street Journal may give some explanation to their high numbers.
Trump exits White House with drop in approval ratings
As to Sasse, why did you not ask for a link? Or look into it yourself?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And the above stats is also what I've seen as well.Where is NBC getting those figures from? They do not appear to be correct at all. The approval rating of Democrats is outrageously high. That makes me think that there may be some data skewing going on. Gallup is a reliable independent source:
Last Trump Job Approval 34%; Average Is Record-Low 41%
"Trump is the only president not to register a 50% job approval rating at any point in his presidency since Gallup began measuring presidential job approval in 1938. Likewise, he is the only president who did not have a honeymoon period of above-average ratings upon taking office. His initial 45% job approval rating proved to be his high point for his first year as president."
Even FOX News mentioned this report and seemed to give it more credence than others, though they did mention the NBC/Wall Street Journal poll. And the fact that NBC is working with the Wall Street Journal may give some explanation to their high numbers.
Trump exits White House with drop in approval ratings
As to Sasse, why did you not ask for a link? Or look into it yourself?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Come on. Trump left office with the lowest approval rating of any President on record. That was about 39%, based on averages of the polls at the time.It seems to me that Trump would be excited after almost every rally he does. So a lack of context is devastating to the accusation (not to mention the lack of credibility of Sasse who, before the capitol riot, was criticizing Trump at every opportunity).
It also seems to me that Trump did express remorse at the outcome.
I'm seeing more use of this word "obvious" both from you and others. I think that's the problem. The premises are not validated because the conclusion is "obvious".
In the words of Inigo Montoya:
I'm sorry if you can't understand why people would continue to support Trump.
But you should consider giving some thought to it. Trump's approval rating increased after the Capitol Riot.
Trump's job approval rating ticks up after Capitol riot: Rasmussen poll
According to NBC polling, Trump's approval rating was approximately the same after the Capitol Riot and as it was just before the Election.
Trump approval remains stable in new NBC poll, with Republicans unmoved after Capitol violence
So while you might not understand how people can continue to support Trump and even support him more than they have before. It's a very real thing that's happening.
Trump's approval rating when he left office was 51%, which was higher than Biden's approval rating of 48%. "Obviously" that's within a margin of error, but the point remains.
My suggestion would be to stop trying to use a conclusion that you hold to be true... say "Trump is evil" and reason backwards from that to premises such as "Trump must've been excited when people died at the Capitol Riot."
It turns out that that sort of reasoning can lead to false assumptions.
Hell, while he was in office he never even broke the 50% mark.
By all accounts of those who were there, Trump was gleefully watching the insurrection unfold on television. That was after he told his followers that he would join them and then totally abandoned them. Great guy.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Said it before, will say it again.
It's mafia boss language. Carefully chosen words so that there aren't any direct "orders" that can be pinned on them, so he can play the innocent card game when it comes to it.
The fact of the matter is that he's been accusing every political opposition of conspiracy, fraud, theft, corruption etc for months.
Then there is also the deafening silence and dodging when asked about QAnon's, who's allegations and accusations are out-of-this-world. Such are cases where silence is the same as confirming / agreeing.
Did he directly order or organize it?
No, did his language and consistent endless rants and accusations and overall behavior lead to that event? YES.
Would it have happened if he wouldn't have been so consistent in his massive lies and accusations and such? Most definitely NOT.
So is he ultimately responsible? Absolutely!
He is as guilty for all of this as Paul Castellano was for all the crimes of his Gambino crime family soldiers, eventhough he never directly ordered them.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
There's a quote I like from devil's advocate: is not liking this man reasonable to convict him of murder.
I don't care for the guy myself, but I try not to let that make me assume he's guilty of everything the public accuses him of.
I think instead maybe he thought to riot in his head but people took matters into their own hands. He mostly supported the riot mentally but not planned it. Agreeing with something (well seemingly be inaction to stop it) doesn't mean he did anything.
Media has biased against trump just as the minority has biased in support of him.
He probably wanted to but doubt if he planned it.
Why can't his supporters be responsible for their actions instead of pinning it trump?
People can think on their own no matter how stupid their actions may be.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How come Charles Manson went to prison when he didn't actually kill anyone?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You may have noticed, or not, that at no point in my post did I discuss his character or the fact that I don't like him.
What I actually pointed out is how he has been throwing around false accusations and rhetoric non-stop which inevitably lead to this situation.
That makes him ultimately responsible.
Without his consistent spewing of lie after lie after lie, accusing the people in the senate of corruption, theft, fraud and other criminal behavior, then his followers (of whom he knows that they'll believe anything he says) wouldn't have felt the need to take matters in their own hands.
He made them believe there was a giant criminal conspiracy going on in the senate, that democracy was being hijacked. Purposefully.
There is no denying this. I saw it coming from miles away only days after the election - and I live at the other side of the globe, in Belgium. Frankly I'm surprised that the capitol storming is all that happened and that only 5 people died. I expected much worse. And not because I knew of "groups" who were planning worse. I expected much worse, solely because of Trump's daily rhetoric and nothing else.
So no, what happened on the 6th of january did not at all surprise me. Not even a little bit.
He set the stage for it.
He made the public believe corrupt senators were hijacking democracy and committing fraud in a giant conspiracy. What would one expect to happen when you feed trigger happy "patriots" such nonsense day in, day out, non-stop, 24/7?
No, he didn't "organize" it. He's nevertheless ultimately responsible for it, through his 24/7 lies and false accusations.
I don't think anyone is suggesting to let the rioters go free or take away from their responsibility in this mess.
The point just is, there is no reason to not hold Trump responsible for his role. He's the seed that became the tree. He's the one that fed it with water. Without his consistent lying and false accusations, it would have never happened.
Deliberatly misleading people like that, cannot go without consequences - ESPECIALLY NOT for a president.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It was some odd miscarriage of justice. Free Manson now!! As long as he does not move into my neighborhood
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I don't get it.