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Quran, Harry Potter, and Lord of the rings. Same?

Heyo

Veteran Member
There isn't enough to say without
making things up?
When you are a goat herder in the bronze age, there isn't much to say except from things you make up.
It is interesting and informative to see with what those people came up with.
It is depressing and frustrating when you see that some people didn't grow out of the bronze age.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
When you are a goat herder in the bronze age, there isn't much to say except from things you make up.
It is interesting and informative to see with what those people came up with.
It is depressing and frustrating when you see that some people didn't grow out of the bronze age.

Specifics?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Specifics?
Take the Adam and Eve story as an example. Somebody extrapolated back from a known state. S/he correctly identified that humans make inventions and that earlier humans wouldn't have had agriculture or even cloths. S/he also recognized that animals don't wear cloths. The conclusion was that earlier humans were more like animals as they didn't think about clothing themselves.
And that is were the imagination stopped.
The rest of the story was filled with magic and fantasy.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Take the Adam and Eve story as an example. Somebody extrapolated back from a known state. S/he correctly identified that humans make inventions and that earlier humans wouldn't have had agriculture or even cloths. S/he also recognized that animals don't wear cloths. The conclusion was that earlier humans were more like animals as they didn't think about clothing themselves.
And that is were the imagination stopped.
The rest of the story was filled with magic and fantasy.

You are referring to the Tanakh mate. Not the Quran.

Yet, I understand what you say from a naturalistic point of view.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Quran speaks of a local flood, not a global flood.
Two points here,
1. Where in the Quran story does it use the word "local" to describe the flood?
2. Even if it does that simply makes the Quran version a post-hoc rationalisation of an earlier myth.

Some other stories from the Quran that a number of folks would consider mythological;
1A. Jesus blows on a clay bird and it comes to life

'behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, Yusuf Ali Quran 5:110

2B Solomon and the talking ants and birds;
Yusuf Ali Quran 27
'16. And Solomon was David’s heir. He said : “ O ye people ! We have been taught the speech Of Birds, and on us Has been bestowed (a little) Of all things : this is Indeed Grace manifest (from God.) ”

17. And before Solomon were marshalled His hosts,—of Jinns and men And birds, and they were all Kept in order and ranks.

18. At length, when they came To a (lowly) valley of ants, One of the ants said : “ O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.”
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Two points here,
1. Where in the Quran story does it use the word "local" to describe the flood?
2. Even if it does that simply makes the Quran version a post-hoc rationalisation of an earlier myth.

Well, you could always say that its a latter rationalisation. Thats your view, and that's fine. You can dismiss many things just like that.

But if you want to prove the Quran speaks of a global flood, then prove it. Since you are just arguing something without ever exploring it, please read these verses and find out for yourself.

11:25,36,89. 9:70 22:42 25:35-39 38:12 40:5,31 50:12 51:46 53:52 54:9 71:1-11 7:59

I just separated them so that you could make the distinction from one verse to another.

'behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, Yusuf Ali Quran 5:110

2B Solomon and the talking ants and birds;
Yusuf Ali Quran 27
'16. And Solomon was David’s heir. He said : “ O ye people ! We have been taught the speech Of Birds, and on us Has been bestowed (a little) Of all things : this is Indeed Grace manifest (from God.) ”

17. And before Solomon were marshalled His hosts,—of Jinns and men And birds, and they were all Kept in order and ranks.

18. At length, when they came To a (lowly) valley of ants, One of the ants said : “ O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.”

Thanks for bringing in some irrelevant verses for an irrelevant topic. So again, you are building a caricature of your own to attack later. Thats strawman.

Cheers.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But if you want to prove the Quran speaks of a global flood, then prove it. Since you are just arguing something without ever exploring it, please read these verses and find out for yourself.

11:25,36,89. 9:70 22:42 25:35-39 38:12 40:5,31 50:12 51:46 53:52 54:9 71:1-11 7:59
Sure I'll read all those verses, but I really think only one of them is necessary;

Sarah 71:26-28 Yusuf Ali

'And Noah said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers a single one on earth! 5724

27
"For if Thou dost leave (any of) them they will but mislead thy devotees and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.

28
"O my Lord! Forgive me my parents all who enter my house in Faith and (all) believing men and believing women: and to the wrongdoers grant Thou no increase but in Perdition!"'

Note the flood localists seem to interpret v26 along the lines of "in the land", but for all unbelievers in a local land to get flooded their would have to be no non believers living on the mountain tops and other high places.

Also the fact that Noah was told to build a boat instead of just walking over the mountain to the next valley, and the fact that the Quran doesn't explicitly claim the biblical Noah account is wrong even though the Quran's recipients would be familiar with it through oral tradition in my opinion.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Also according to the Quran the ark comes to rest finally on Mount Judi

See yusuf ali 11:44
'When the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water and O sky! withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi'

From Mount Judi - Wikipedia

Mount Judi has an elevation of 2,089 m, so where did all the water go, and what geological evidence is there on Mount Judi of a flood on it?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sure I'll read all those verses, but I really think only one of them is necessary;

Sarah 71:26-28 Yusuf Ali

'And Noah said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers a single one on earth! 5724

27
"For if Thou dost leave (any of) them they will but mislead thy devotees and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.

28
"O my Lord! Forgive me my parents all who enter my house in Faith and (all) believing men and believing women: and to the wrongdoers grant Thou no increase but in Perdition!"'

Note the flood localists seem to interpret v26 along the lines of "in the land", but for all unbelievers in a local land to get flooded their would have to be no non believers living on the mountain tops and other high places.

Also the fact that Noah was told to build a boat instead of just walking over the mountain to the next valley, and the fact that the Quran doesn't explicitly claim the biblical Noah account is wrong even though the Quran's recipients would be familiar with it through oral tradition in my opinion.

Who said “All the unbelievers”?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I was paraphrasing Yusuf ali who said, "Leave not of the Unbelievers a single one on earth!"
You can't not leave a single unbeliever and it not be reffering to all unbelievers in my opinion

Yusuf Ali doesn’t say “all of them on earth”, he says specifically. This is the reason you have to read the verses I have given you. You cannot cherry pick to understand something. Unless you don’t intend to.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yusuf Ali doesn’t say “all of them on earth”, he says specifically. This is the reason you have to read the verses I have given you. You cannot cherry pick to understand something. Unless you don’t intend to.
II didn't say that Yusuf Ali says the words, "all of them on earth", I explained I was paraphrasing and gave the reason why. By comparison you have only returned empty assertion in my opinion.

FYI I have read alll the references you posted, and I can truly say I think your accusation of cherrypicking is wholly unjustified in my opinion. There is nothing which unambiguously states that the flood was a local event, it is eisegesis to read localisation into it in my opinion.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
II didn't say that Yusuf Ali says the words, "all of them on earth", I explained I was paraphrasing and gave the reason why. By comparison you have only returned empty assertion in my opinion.

FYI I have read alll the references you posted, and I can truly say I think your accusation of cherrypicking is wholly unjustified in my opinion. There is nothing which unambiguously states that the flood was a local event, it is eisegesis to read localisation into it in my opinion.

It very plainly says all the world, and makes
no sense unless it was the whole world.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Unlike you and @Audie , I find the development and propagation of myths interesting from historical and psychological perspectives.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

IMO, the idea that flooding - albeit many repeated, separate events - is nearly universally experienced by humanity, and because of this, is expressed in mythology around the world is very interesting.
 

Baroodi

Active Member
Quran FICTION
There was an interesting point raised that all three are the same as in scripture, and that all three are fiction. It is a fascinating subject to address I believe, thus anyone who thinks this and claims this,

1. Why do you think Harry Potter is or can be anyones "religious scripture"?
2. What evidence do you have that Adam and Noah were fiction?

The claimant has the burden of proof, thus rather than committing the burden of proof fallacy, I would like to hear the mythicists argument on this.
 
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