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How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
They did not take credit but I give them credit, because I believe they were the ones that were responsible for all the positive changes that have taken place since the Messianic Era was ushered in by the Bab in 1844.

Exactly, and I'm saying they can't take credit, because the changes happened after their deaths.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Exactly, and I'm saying they can't take credit, because the changes happened after their deaths.
They cannot take credit for "doing" the things that happened after their deaths, but they do get the credit for ushering in the new Divine Cycle in which these changes would take place.

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

We live in the most remarkable of times. The transformation of the material conditions of humanity has a cause. Do we really believe that the human beings who came before us were incapable of what we see in the world today? Great civilizations have come before in history – yet none of them broke out of the same reality that has existed since the dawn of agriculture.

It is only in this time that humanity has passed into an entirely new reality. It has a cause. A cause larger than humanity itself.

In 1844, in Shiraz, the Bab, Baha’u’llah’s immediate forerunner, spoke these words:

The secret of the Day that is to come is now concealed. It can neither be divulged nor estimated. The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age.[1]​

A short time before, on the other side of the planet on 24 May 1844, within a day of the Bab’s declaration of his mission, Samuel Morse, the inventor of the telegraph sent its first message from Washington to Baltimore. The message read as follows: What hath God Wrought? , citing a passage from the Bible.

 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No they can't, because these changes didn't start in 1844. They started later.
They did start in 1844, and then they just continued to unfold after that.

What Hath God Wrought?

On May 24, 1844, Samuel F. B. Morse dispatched the first telegraphic message over an experimental line from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore. The message, taken from the Bible, Numbers 23:23 and recorded on a paper tape, had been suggested to Morse by Annie Ellsworth, the young daughter of a friend.

Today in History - May 24 | Library of Congress

What hath God wrought - Wikipedia

Samuel Morse demonstrates the telegraph with the message, “What hath God wrought?”

Is it just a coincidence that May 24, 1844 was within a day of the declaration of the Bab, who ushered in the Messianic Era?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
They did start in 1844, and then they just continued to unfold after that.

What Hath God Wrought?

On May 24, 1844, Samuel F. B. Morse dispatched the first telegraphic message over an experimental line from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore. The message, taken from the Bible, Numbers 23:23 and recorded on a paper tape, had been suggested to Morse by Annie Ellsworth, the young daughter of a friend.

Today in History - May 24 | Library of Congress

What hath God wrought - Wikipedia
Samuel Morse demonstrates the telegraph with the message, “What hath God wrought?”

Is it just a coincidence that May 24, 1844 was within a day of the declaration of the Bab, who ushered in the Messianic Era?
Sorry, I just don't see how Morse's telegraph message was the Bab or Baha'u'llah ushering in the Messiahic age, especially since nothing significant happened for another century.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Sorry, I just don't see how Morse's telegraph message was the Bab or Baha'u'llah ushering in the Messiahic age, especially since nothing significant happened for another century.
If they ushered in the Industrial Revolution, then that came with a lot of bad stuff too. And if they gave people the knowledge to make bigger and better weapons, maybe Baha'u'llah should have waited until people wouldn't use the knowledge to find better ways to kill each other. Or, they could have released more spiritual knowledge to where people would "know" the Lord and have his Laws written on their hearts. And, as I recall, isn't that one of the end time prophecies... They will know the Lord and not make war anymore?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I am simply stating what the Baha’i Faith teaches, that all religions are one and that they are all true.
That's the thing... What we see in the world is a bunch of religions all teaching and believing different things. In order to make them all one, Baha'is have to explain away all those differences. But some of those differences are taken directly from the Scriptures of the religion. So then Baha'is have to try and show how those Scriptures are either wrong or misinterpreted. Like with Christians believing, literally, that Jesus came back to life... simply because that is what the gospel writers said... and they said there were several witnesses.

With the Jews there are places where the Law is said to be everlasting and forever. So how can they accept Jesus when Christians get rid of the Law and even one of the Ten Commandments, the one about the Sabbath? Now if you are talking to Liberal Christians and Reformed Jews, then most all of those problems disappear. But then Baha'is sound like they are saying that those people that take their Scriptures as true are somehow blind and not "true" seekers.

But, these people aren't seekers at all. They believe they have the truth. But Baha'is know all this, yet they try and try to make them "see" the light. But, a lot of them have the light. The light that their beliefs gives them. Like Born-Again Christians. They believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit dwell in their hearts. They believe that Satan is trying to deceive them and lure them away into sin and into following false religions. And then, that Jesus is the one coming back. So how you going to show them that they are wrong? Jews, Christians, anybody that is happy and believes in their religion isn't going to want people to tell them that their beliefs and interpretations are all wrong. But you know this. Yet, Baha'is keep trying... and get called names, and get accused of proselytizing and preaching. What do Baha'is expect will be the reaction?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sorry, I just don't see how Morse's telegraph message was the Bab or Baha'u'llah ushering in the Messiahic age, especially since nothing significant happened for another century.
Are you saying that nothing significant happened until 1944? I am no history buff, so I'd have to read up on that in order to know, or maybe I can find an article written by a Baha'i, if there is one. There might be one since Baha'iTeachings, org covers many subjects and has a Science and History section.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's the thing... What we see in the world is a bunch of religions all teaching and believing different things. In order to make them all one, Baha'is have to explain away all those differences.
Logically speaking, why would we have to explain away those differences? After all the Baha'i Faith makes no claim that all religions are the same, as Baha'u'llah says they are all different.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

To unite religions, people would have to recognize Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this age. Then they'd realize that time has marched on and we are living in a new age and we have a new religion that addresses the needs of this age.

If after all the years you have been on this forum you still have not seen the resistance to change of those adherents to older religions, I cannot imagine why. It is so drop dead obvious. Imo, the main reason that that more people do not become Baha'is is because they do not want to relinquish their older religions, so they do not want to believe that the Baha'i Faith is true. This can all be explained by psychology.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If they ushered in the Industrial Revolution, then that came with a lot of bad stuff too. And if they gave people the knowledge to make bigger and better weapons, maybe Baha'u'llah should have waited until people wouldn't use the knowledge to find better ways to kill each other. Or, they could have released more spiritual knowledge to where people would "know" the Lord and have his Laws written on their hearts. And, as I recall, isn't that one of the end time prophecies... They will know the Lord and not make war anymore?
Yes, those two things are evidence of the Messianic age. Right now, we can't say that everyone knows the Lord -- there are plenty of atheists.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Are you saying that nothing significant happened until 1944? I am no history buff, so I'd have to read up on that in order to know, or maybe I can find an article written by a Baha'i, if there is one. There might be one since Baha'iTeachings, org covers many subjects and has a Science and History section.
I'd say more recently than that. International warfare didn't stop until after the Iraq war. Modern medicine is also fairly recent, although we slid into it more gradually. It came with the discovery of antibiotics and vaccines and knowledge of DNA, all fairly recent.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'd say more recently than that. International warfare didn't stop until after the Iraq war. Modern medicine is also fairly recent, although we slid into it more gradually. It came with the discovery of antibiotics and vaccines and knowledge of DNA, all fairly recent.
But these things have taken place so I do not know why it matters how long it took, or how soon it happened after the Messiah came, as long as it happened during the Messianic Age.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, those two things are evidence of the Messianic age. Right now, we can't say that everyone knows the Lord -- there are plenty of atheists.
I know about those prophecies that say everyone will believe in God because I quote them often:

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

However, as I have been saying, an age is a period of time and it can last a long time. There are no prophecies that stipulate WHEN during the Messianic Age these prophecies will be fulfilled so we have no way of knowing that.

The Bab also wrote that the day will come when everyone will believe in God.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But these things have taken place so I do not know why it matters how long it took, or how soon it happened after the Messiah came, as long as it happened during the Messianic Age.
You lack evidence that this is the messianic age. There are other signs that are just missing. For example, everyone will know God -- just not true, as atheists still exist.

But more to the point, you lack evidence of cause and effect. Just because A comes before B doesn't mean that A causes B.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You lack evidence that this is the messianic age. There are other signs that are just missing. For example, everyone will know God -- just not true, as atheists still exist.
An age is a period of time, so the Messianic Age spans a period of time, and as such everyone could come to know God at any time during the Messianic Age....

I did a Google search on 'how long is the messianic age?' and here is what I found:

In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".

Messianic Age - Wikipedia


What is the Messianic Age in Judaism?

The Messianic Age is often referred to by Jews as olam ha-ba , meaning 'the world to come'. Jews believe this will be a time of peace with a total absence of war and hatred. During the Messianic Age, Jews believe that God will be accepted by everyone and Judaism will be known as the one true religion.

Messiah - Key beliefs - OCR - GCSE Religious Studies Revision ...


Baha’is believe that during during the Messianic Age everyone will come to know about the Baha’i Faith, but nowhere do our Writings say that the Baha’i Faith will be known as the one true religion.
But more to the point, you lack evidence of cause and effect. Just because A comes before B doesn't mean that A causes B.
That is true, in order to prove that you'd have to prove that (A) Baha'u'llah was the Messiah that caused (B) the unfoldment of the Messianic Age (B). In order to determine if that is the case, you'd have to look the evidence that supports Baha'u'llah's claims to be the Messiah.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
If after all the years you have been on this forum you still have not seen the resistance to change of those adherents to older religions, I cannot imagine why. It is so drop dead obvious. Imo, the main reason that that more people do not become Baha'is is because they do not want to relinquish their older religions, so they do not want to believe that the Baha'i Faith is true. This can all be explained by psychology.
You might want to take a long hard look into a mirror.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The issue is "Bible" implies a Christian understanding of the OT. This understanding is foreign to the Jewish Tanakh. God is god, he sent his prophets, gave his law, and he promised them a Messiah.
Then Christianity comes along, adds the Messiah, and Jesus said to reject those who come after him for they are false prophets.
Amd then came along Muhammad.
Amd then came along Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Each one adding and taking, each one reinventing what the last had, each claiming to be the final and complete version of Judaism. Never mind the fact these late comers are the ones Yahweh made his covenants with.
Yeah. Everyone is the last prophet until the next one.
 
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