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How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Do Baha'is think that the way all the other religions are believed and practiced today are right or wrong?
I cannot speak about religions I know nothing about, but I know about Christianity and I agree with George Townshend.

“As Jesus prophesied, the false prophets contrived to change the essential meaning of the Gospel so that it became quite different from that which the Bible recorded or Jesus taught. (Matt. Vii 15-23 and see pp. 11, 12.)

Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets, pp. 25-30
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hmmm? Why do I repeat myself? Could it be that you still have it wrong. Tell your friend that I'm questioning why start the 2300 days in 456BC? That was the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with the daily sacrifice being stopped. Whereas Antiochus Epiphanes apparently did. Later, I think this guy is a 7th Day Adventist, he makes an argument for using 456BC.
I do not believe I have it wrong about Baha'u'llah being a the return of Christ so that is why the prophecy does not concern me.

I suggest you post to Duane (Truthseeker9) from this forum, as that is the best way to communicate,and get a response.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Did Tony criticize Jewish beliefs?
The OP states, "How do all Faiths with One God, not see the One God?"

What that obviously means is that faiths with one God (Judaism qualifies here) do not see the One God, that is a criticism.

I am not responsible for Tony or for dybmh, I am only responsible for myself, and I am responsible to God, so I care when dybmh misrepresents the Baha'i Faith on a public forum, and it is my duty to defend the Faith.
That is certainly your allegation that @dybmh has misrepresented the faith, but so far it appears to me that he has only used your interpretation of Baha'u'llahs statement to form his conclusion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You're being dishonest. Here is it again since you are denying reality.

And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the dayspring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfill the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.

(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/570360520

And here's your quote showing what it means to be wrapped in the densest veils of satanic fancy.


The passage begins talking about the light of Jesus. Then the passage asks how many other revealers of light will manifest while Israel, wrapped in the densest veil of their evil ego, is tormented in nethermost hellfire for no other reason except that we "refused" to apprehend the meaning of the words in the Bible.

That's it. Baha'i scripture is bigoted against Jewish people for no other reason except that we deny that Jesus is our Messiah. There is no other way to read this text.

Nope. You're being dishonest. Again. You left out the part about the Jewish evil ego. Here it is again.


You keep ignoring that Baha'i scripture called Israel wrapped in their evil ego. You did it again below.



Nope. Wrapped in the densest veils of satanic fancy means wrapped in the densest veils of evil ego. That's your interpretation, not mine. Baha'i scripture is bigoted against Jewish people.
Interpret the passage to mean whatever you think it means, I agree with Baha'u'llah because I believe He was infallible. Say whatever you want to about me or Baha'u'llah but you cannot hurt me with your labels.

I have two more posts to post to you and I am only posting them because I already wrote them last night and it took a long time.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The OP states, "How do all Faiths with One God, not see the One God?"

What that obviously means is that faiths with one God (Judaism qualifies here) do not see the One God, that is a criticism.
I agree that this thread was in bad taste and it was an indirect criticism of Jews. I very much dislike indirect communication because I consider it dishonest to beat around the bush.
That is certainly your allegation that @dybmh has misrepresented the faith, but so far it appears to me that he has only used your interpretation of Baha'u'llahs statement to form his conclusion.
That is his right to have is own interpretation of what Baha'u'llah wrote and form his own conclusion, but when he starts calling the Baha'i Faith a bigoted religion because of one quote that borders on calumny, and as a Baha'i it is my duty to defend my Faith.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
as a Baha'i it is my duty to defend my Faith.
Well I hope you have enough empathy to see that dybmh may possibly see it as his duty to defend his faith, and that is all he was doing by defending Judaism against the statements made by Tony and Baha'u'llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well I hope you have enough empathy to see that dybmh may possibly see it as his duty to defend his faith, and that is all he was doing by defending Judaism against the statements made by Tony and Baha'u'llah.
Yes, he has as much of a right to defend his faith as I do, but maybe you know the old saying that it is not so much what you say as how you say it. ;)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I guess you do not watch much TV news. ;)
True, I don't watch much TV news, but I READ a wide variety of newpapers every day. International warfare is at an alltime low. Violent crimes in the cities is also at an alltime low per FBI statistics. Due to science, our lives are easier and more comfortable due to tech, and medical science we have less pain, greater health, and longer life. While human rights have not yet spread world wide, the idea has taken hold, and is in the process of spreading. Yes, this is the best time in human history.

That sounds very Christian. I did not know Jews had such beliefs. ;)
Gog .nd Magog are in the Tanakh :) .
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Christians have Gog and Magog and the battle of Armageddon in the Book of Revelation. What are the Jewish teachings and prophecies about those things?
Gog and Magog occur in the Tanakh. It simply is that just before the Messianic era, this great battle will take place.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nope. Our responsibility is to deny false prophets as defined by Deuteronomy 13. But you'll need to read it from a Jewish source. The Christian bible obscures the prohibition from adding or removing from the commandments.
Deuteronomy 13

1 Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it.

2 You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

3 and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

4 you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

5 You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.


It says that you should not add to the Torah or subtract from it, but how could you do that? It has been canonized.

It does not say you should never follow any Prophet. It says you should not follow a prophet who said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," or a prophet who “spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt.”

All scriptures say that because it is a warning not to be fooled. The New Testament says the same thing about false prophets in Matthew 7 and Baha’u’llah told us not to believe in any prophet that comes in less than 1000 years, but logically speaking to warn us of a possible false prophet is not to say there can be no true prophet.
It is prohibited to deify people in Judaism. That is idolatry.
Sorry, I thought you said defiled, not deified. It is also prohibited in the Baha’i Faith to deify anyone, even a Messenger of God.
Your beliefs are irrelevent in a debate. It's just more preaching.
A debate has two sides. How can there be a debate with only one side presented? That is a double standard, because if my beliefs are not relevant to a debate neither are your beliefs.

Whenever you do not like something I say you call it preaching. You also did that to Skywalker.
Your opinion about Jews and Christians and Muslims is bigoted. We don't need your religion. It's that simple. You are imagining flaws and assigning them to the entire group unjustly, demonizing those who don't agree with you. That's bigoted.
I can’t even have an opinion without being called names. A bigot is a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. That does not apply to me just because I stated why I think those of older religions reject a new religion.

There is nothing bigoted about my opinion; it is just a word you use to beat me down. I don’t care if you think the world needed another religion, it is not your choice to make that decision, it is God’s choice, and if God made that choice there is nothing you can do about it.
Nah. I don't think you can make a logical argument showing the need for a new messenger. So far it sounds completely irrational. It's faith based, not evidence based.
Don’t worry, I won’t tell you. And I don't think you can make a logical argument showing that there is no need for a new messenger. That we do not need a new Messenger is faith based, not evidence based. Just turn on your TV if you do not think we needed a new Messenger. There is your evidence.

If we don’t need a new Messenger why would we need a Messiah?
Wrong. It's not a binary choice. You can have your religion with your God. I can have my religion with my God. The Torah clearly says that there are "other Gods". Jewish people are simply prohibited from worshipping or serving those other Gods.
I do not have a separate God, as there is only one God. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" means you should not worship false gods, you should only worship the one true God.

Deut 13:5 You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

All the scriptures enjoin the believers to follow their God but that does not mean that the God that the Christians and Muslims and Baha’is follow is not the one true God. That is completely illogical.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" is one of the Ten Commandments found in the Hebrew Bible at Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6. It is the central tenet of the Abrahamic religions and prohibits the religion's followers from worshipping gods other than the Lord.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me - Wikipedia
And that is a very good reason to reject him. Case closed. He sounds like a bigot. Not very enlightened.
Believe whatever you want to believe and do whatever you want to do, it’s your choice.

A bigot is a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. That would not describe Baha’u’llah at all since He taught that all the religions are one and they are all true. I am also not a bigot either since I believe all religions are true. If anyone is bigoted it is a believer who is unreasonably attached to a belief that states that only their religion is true.
That's a strawman. No one is asking you to accept Torah. You on the other hand are asking all religious believers to accept all religions.
I am not asking any religious believers to do that, I am simply stating what the Baha’i Faith teaches, that all religions are one and that they are all true. What people do with that information is entirely up to them.
According to your words above you think "all religious believers are obligated to accept all religions". That is elitest, judgemental, know-it-all, preachy garbage.
That does not come from me, it come from Baha’u’llah. I am just the ‘messenger’ for the Messenger. Maybe the word obligated is not the right word, enjoined would be a better word.

Baha’u’llah wrote: “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal.” And then He explained why “Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings, p. 171

Why not just admit you do not like my beliefs instead of attacking me personally and calling me names? That does not project a very good image of Jewish believers. All the other Jews on this forum disagree with my beliefs but they never call me names. In fact, all the other Christians on this forum disagree with my beliefs but they never call me names. That says more about you than it says about me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If the Baha'i faith "cleared up what Christians might have gotten wrong" that shows that their approach to the covenant was regressive.

Nope, it's regressive for several reasons.

If one compares the Jewish approach to Hell, Satan, Evil, God as a Trinity, worshipping Jesus, to the Christian approach to the Baha'i approach, then it's easy to see that the Christian revelation is regressive. The Baha'i faith corrects all of these and makes them closer to the original mainstrean Jewish beliefs. The revelation from the Christian bible is regressive, then the Baha'i revelation is progressive on these issues.

So, my belief that the revelation from the Christian bible is regressive has nothing to do with whether or not "the Jews had the only and last revelation from God". It's based on comparing Jewish beliefs, Christian beliefs, and Baha'i beliefs.
But since regressive means becoming less advanced; returning to a former or less developed state, what did Christianity regress from? Do you mean it backslid from what was taught in the Torah?
I understand, but, why you believe it doesn't really matter. The reason it would be needed is because Baha'i incorrectly assign infallibility to Moses. If Moses is not deemed infallible then progressive revelation is not needed. The social teachings and laws do not need to be updated from God. All that's needed is simple human intellectual and moral advancement.
So you are saying that if Moses was infallible the progressive revelation might be needed? I think I might understand what you are saying, but correct me if I am wrong. Do you agree that if Moses and all the other Messengers were infallible, they would know from God that the social teachings and laws do not need to be updated and they would have the authority from God to update them?
This is bigoted. Old religions are not automatically bad. A negative opinion is justified when it is the result of specific actions taken by individuals. Grouping all members of all old religions together and judging them negatively, claiming they need to unify without giving specific reasons is unjust. I'm guessing this is something Baha'u'llah teaches, and you accept it as true, but you don't realize how bigoted it is.
That is a straw man, as I did not group all members of all old religions together and judge them negatively, claiming they need to unify without giving specific reasons. I never said that the older religions are ‘bad’ and I never said anything negative about them. Because of my beliefs, I disagree with Jewish and Christian beliefs that they are the only true religion. I do not disagree with any Jewish beliefs because I do not even know what they are, but I disagree with a lot of Christian beliefs because I know what they are I do not believe align with what Jesus taught, nor do they represent what was written in the New Testament. If you wanted to know why I believe that all the religions should unite I would have explained that, but you never asked.

A bigot is a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. That does not apply to what I said just because I stated that I think those of older religions are attached to their religions and thus reject a new religion. You just throw the word bigoted around but it is the wrong word.

It is not bigoted to say that I believe that all religions should unite, it is simply a belief I hold based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote:

“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix
That's nice, but, remember according to Baha'u'llah Jesus annulled the Sabbath.

Exodus 31:16 clearly states that the Sabbath is a B'rit Olam an "Everlasting Covenant". So we have another inconsistency. It seems like we Jews are better off ignoring progressive revelation and continuing to observe Torah.
According to the definition of Sabbath it says it is a day of religious observance and abstinence from work, kept by Jewish people from Friday evening to Saturday evening, and by most Christians on Sunday, so maybe Jesus changed the Sabbath Day, I don’t know.
As I said before, both approaches have their merits and their flaws. The problem with the Baha'i approach is that it reduces the Messiah to an insignificant figure. At that point, if he isn't involved in fulfillment of any Messianic prophecies, why even call him The Messiah?
I do not view it that way at all. I consider it rather absurd if the Messiah were to be directly involved in bringing a about world peace for example, because that would reduce him to a political leader, and there is no need for him to be directly involved because he revealed the scriptures that state how world peace will be reestablished by humans.

Establishing world peace could have been accomplished during Baha’u’llah’s lifetime. If the kings and rulers had followed the counsels of Baha’u’llah the Most Great Peace could have been established by now, but after they all rejected Him, He wrote a Tablet to them stating that they would have to settle for the Lesser Peace:

“Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.

O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.

Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 254
The simplest solution is that each religion has a savior archetype in its legends and myths.
But if there is only one Messiah and he actually fulfilled all the prophecies it makes more sense to try to figure out how he fulfilled the prophecies of all the religions.

I do not understand why each religion would have to have their own savior archetype and I do not understand why religions have to be separate. Obviously those who do not want to become one with a newer religion do not understand why they have to be united, but I do not think it is about what appeals to us but rather about what God wants for humanity which would have to be what God knows is best for humanity since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise. I believe that eventually all religions will be united because that is what God has ordained, but that is a long way off.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

If these teachings include or encourage bigotry, and that's how it appears, then it spoils the entire message.
Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. bigotry means - Google Search

The Baha’i Faith could not be further from bigotry since its teachings are based upon the elimination of prejudice of all kinds.

Elimination of Prejudice

Acceptance of the oneness of humanity demands that prejudice—whether racial, religious, or gender-related—must be totally eliminated.

Misconceptions and prejudices that consider one group of people as superior to another are a major contributor to humanity’s present afflictions. Prejudice is a false perception, or preconception, of others based on ignorance, blinding us to the fact that every person is essentially a spiritual being with unique talents and capacities, a “mine rich in gems of inestimable value.”1

Elimination of Prejudice | What Bahá’ís Believe
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
True, I don't watch much TV news, but I READ a wide variety of newpapers every day. International warfare is at an alltime low. Violent crimes in the cities is also at an alltime low per FBI statistics. Due to science, our lives are easier and more comfortable due to tech, and medical science we have less pain, greater health, and longer life. While human rights have not yet spread world wide, the idea has taken hold, and is in the process of spreading. Yes, this is the best time in human history.
You are making some good points. From a Baha'i point of view, these advancements in science and medicine and the improvements in society are the direct result of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and the fact that International warfare is at an all time low shows that we are moving towards an era of world peace. These things do not happen immediately, they unfold over time. Please note that the verse says "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end," which indicates that peace will unfold over time, not all at once. The fact that it will get more peaceful as time goes on (no end) means that a permanent worldwide peace would not be established during the lifetime of the Messiah.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You are making some good points. From a Baha'i point of view, these advancements in science and medicine and the improvements in society are the direct result of the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and the fact that International warfare is at an all time low shows that we are moving towards an era of world peace.
Except that they happened well after the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who are no longer with us, eh?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What about this point about Gog and Magog and a great battle before the Messianic era? How do Baha'is interpret that?
I don't know, as I only just heard about this. I tried to look it up on the internet, but there was nothing definitive about how Gog and Magog would be connected with the coming of the Messiah, and some Jewish websites said that they are mythical. I imagine Jews are not dissimilar to Christians in that different Jews believe differently about the last days and the Messiah, how that will all come about. As I always say, one can read the same scriptures and make the Messiah be whatever they want him to be, according to their personal interpretations and what they are looking forward to. Much of it is related to psychology, wants and needs. I often wonder if anyone other than you really cares if the Messiah has come. Most people just discount the possibility without doing any real research. At least you are searching for the truth, that is my perception. Then again, you are not attached to any religion, so there would be nothing for you to relinquish if you came to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God and the Messiah.
 
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