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Sunnah

Muslims believe Abraham was a prophet and claim to worship the same G-d he did. There's no dispute about that. That makes it an Abrahamic religion. I could say the same about Christianity - that Christians are not Jews and have nothing to do with Abraham whatsoever, but that's not what 'Abrahamic means'. So Maybe you can stop inventing your own definition. Abrahamic religions claim the G-d of Abraham.

I'm sorry, but you're 100% incorrect.

A historic timeline is necessary, as well as an in-depth understanding of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

You seem to favor the latter group, but your knowledge of the former two is incomplete.

Again...Muslims (or anyone) can believe whatever they want. That does NOT make it correct. So...YES...Muslims claim that Abraham was a prophet (immaterial) and that they worship the same GOD he worshipped (logically impossible).

Again...Islam as a religion did NOT exist until 1,200 years after Abraham died, so to claim he was a Prophet of Islam is simply not logical.

No one said "Christians are Jews," so I'm not sure where you got that from? Jews are Jews, and Christians are Christians. Jews and Christians DO worship the same GOD, however, as is clear from the scriptures. Jews reject Christ as Messiah for reasons of their own (which I'll save for another post). basically, Christianity is the FULFILMENT of The Law (or "Judaism").

I assert that the claim that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion" is false. If you want to prove me wrong, you'll need historical facts.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm sorry, but you're 100% incorrect.
That's great, now I'll need to know how.

A historic timeline is necessary, as well as an in-depth understanding of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
As a person who has been following Judaism as a Noahide for four years and was a Christian before that, who has been listening to Islamic lectures since she was 15, I think I know enough.

You seem to favor the latter group, but your knowledge of the former two is incomplete.
Lol.

Again...Muslims (or anyone) can believe whatever they want. That does NOT make it correct. So...YES...Muslims claim that Abraham was a prophet (immaterial) and that they worship the same GOD he worshipped (logically impossible).
How is it logically impossible, pray tell?

Again...Islam as a religion did NOT exist until 1,200 years after Abraham died, so to claim he was a Prophet of Islam is simply not logical.
Who has claimed it did? This is not my claim at all.

No one said "Christians are Jews," so I'm not sure where you got that from? Jews are Jews, and Christians are Christians. Jews and Christians DO worship the same GOD, however, as is clear from the scriptures. Jews reject Christ as Messiah for reasons of their own (which I'll save for another post). basically, Christianity is the FULFILMENT of The Law (or "Judaism").
I know why Jews and Noahides like myself reject Jesus, thanks. I don't need your input on my religion.

I assert that the claim that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion" is false. If you want to prove me wrong, you'll need historical facts.
The Abrahamic Religions:

Judaism

Islam

Christianity

Monasticism - The Abrahamic religions | Britannica

Why? Because they all worship the same God. That's it.
 
That's great, now I'll need to know how.


As a person who has been following Judaism as a Noahide for four years and was a Christian before that, who has been listening to Islamic lectures since she was 15, I think I know enough.


Lol.


How is it logically impossible, pray tell?


Who has claimed it did? This is not my claim at all.


I know why Jews and Noahides like myself reject Jesus, thanks. I don't need your input on my religion.


The Abrahamic Religions:

Judaism

Islam

Christianity

Monasticism - The Abrahamic religions | Britannica

Why? Because they all worship the same God. That's it.

Asserting something is fact does not make it fact.

There's no proof that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion," aside from an assertion made by Muslims that has no basis in history or theology (of either of the 3 faiths.)

You can claim to be as highly educated as you like on all 3 faiths, but so what? I have no idea who you are, so you can make any claim you like. For example, I have a PhD in Divinity from Harvard, and have written many scholarly books on this very subject...So you can't possibly disagree.

Noahidism is an interesting philosophy...But it has no basis in scripture, and does not assure one of a place in the Olam Ha-Ba.

It's logically impossible that Muslims and Christians worship the same God because those two representations could not be more different. To assert otherwise is to assert that God told one group of people the immutable TRUTH and then told another group of people another immutable TRUTH that is in complete opposition.

Islam is about submission.
Christianity is about mercy and grace.
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Asserting something is fact does not make it fact.

There's no proof that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion," aside from an assertion made by Muslims that has no basis in history or theology (of either of the 3 faiths.)

You can claim to be as highly educated as you like on all 3 faiths, but so what? I have no idea who you are, so you can make any claim you like. For example, I have a PhD in Divinity from Harvard, and have written many scholarly books on this very subject...So you can't possibly disagree.

Noahidism is an interesting philosophy...But it has no basis in scripture, and does not assure of a place in the Olam Ha-Ba.

It's logically impossible that Muslims and Christians worship the same God because those two representations could not be more different. To assert otherwise is to assert that God told one group of people the immutable TRUTH< then told another group of people another immutable TRUTH that is in complete opposition.

Islam is about submission.
Christianity is about mercy and grace.
Oh I see.

'Islam isn't an Abrahamic religion because it's not Christianity and I don't like it, also by the way your religion doesn't exist.'


Yeah have a nice day.
 
Oh I see.

'Islam isn't an Abrahamic religion because it's not Christianity and I don't like it, also by the way your religion doesn't exist.'


Yeah have a nice day.

NICE!

You can't really debate the point (you seem to lack the requisite knowledge, despite assertions to the contrary), so you resort to completely distorting what I said to fit one of your prearranged narratives!

Whatever...
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
NICE!

You can't really debate the point (you seem to lack the requisite knowledge, despite assertions to the contrary), so you resort to completely distorting what I said to fit one of your prearranged narratives!

Whatever...

Do you base all this on your own ponderings or do you have other sources you see as credible which you base these views on?
Because to me you're the first and only one who claims Islam is not Abrahamic. So to me it seems you have your own way of categorizing things. There's nothing wrong with that imo, but you express it as if it's common knowledge. This gives me the impression you don't care what other people think. But if it's true you don't care, why do you try so hard to get through to them? Or do you speak for other reasons than to share knowledge, persuade, or to get something off your chest?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I assert that the claim that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion" is false. If you want to prove me wrong, you'll need historical facts.

Whats strange is that you made the claim "Islamic claim that Islam is an Abrahamic religion" which is not true so of course you avoided answering the question "who claimed that".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
There's no proof that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion," aside from an assertion made by Muslims that has no basis in history or theology (of either of the 3 faiths.)

"Abrahamic religions" as used in contemporary literature, is an interfaith term meant to show historical commonality and imply future reconciliation. However, it does not follow from this that it ought to be employed as either a historical or a heuristic category. All of these so called theologies and religious entities have persecuted each other for two millenniums non-stop, thus none of this is such a big deal. Yet, you are using this to alienate Islam. Lets see.

You think Christianity and Judaism are in one bracket in order to have more legitimacy to claim this name? Mate, Christianity has a trinitarian concept, and Abraham too according to Christian theology has to have worshipped this triune God head, or a God who had a son which the Jews would consider Blasphemy. What is your belief? That Jesus was there since the beginning with God and all things were created through him? Yes? Is that how Abraham would have believed?

In that case, Christianity should be alienated more than Islam because it is completely at loggerheads with Judaism. Of course intents are out in the open when someone brings a completely irrelevant subject and harps on it in a thread about Islam, its Sunnah, and how it does not go with a historical claim.

So your concept is "My Abraham is better than yours"!!!

You claimed earlier that Islam being an Abrahamic religion is an Islamic claim. False. This coinage came up in the 20th century. Though people wrote about this in the 19th century, also earlier, they referred to the Jewish abrahamic covenant, not all so called religions, and it was used by Christian writers.

Islam claims many prophets who are common, not only Abraham. So does Christianity. In fact, if you read the Qur'an it says no messenger of God is inferior or superior to humans. No one is supposed to make distinction of one against another. Terms used for messengers are just terms, and does not mean anyone is distinct. Thus, it is wrong to note that Islam falsely claims it is an Abrahamic religion which I think you have made in the haste of following through with your intent thus not very informed.

But if you really wish to argue this argument of yours that your Abraham is better than mine, then one could argue based on theology, and your theology is at loggerheads with the Jewish theology. Like chalk and cheese. Thus, if you again wish to argue your argument, Islamic theology is more in line with the Jewish theology, thus making "my Abraham, better than yours". Thats just an argument posed to show how arguments could be made to alienate rather than discuss the topic at hand. And again, it was Islam that claimed it is an abrahamic religion like Judaism and Christianity. Your statement shows that you have no clue of the Islamic theology or the Quran. Also you fail to see that Christianity has completely denied Jewish claims to their theology, called their Holy books "the Old Testament", denied their pure monotheism and imposed a trinity upon their scripture, yet claiming falsely that "my Abraham is better than yours".

For arguments Sake. Cheers.
 
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JerryMyers

Active Member
There's no proof that Islam is an "Abrahamic religion," aside from an assertion made by Muslims that has no basis in history or theology (of either of the 3 faiths.)

‘Abrahamic religion’ simply mean religion that preaches the belief in only 1 God. So, on that basis, Judaism, Islam and Christianity falls under the ‘Abrahamic religion’ category.

It's logically impossible that Muslims and Christians worship the same God because those two representations could not be more different. To assert otherwise is to assert that God told one group of people the immutable TRUTH and then told another group of people another immutable TRUTH that is in complete opposition.

Muslims and Christians worship the same God. The difference is only in their understanding of who God is. It’s like the story of the 6 blind men and the elephant – because they were blind and each of them was touching different parts of the elephant, they all have different understanding of what is an elephant but their differences in their respective understanding does NOT change the fact that they are describing and touching the SAME elephant.

Muslims believe in the ABSOLUTE ONENESS of God, while Christians, in particular the Trinitarians, believe in a ‘3-in-1’ God which was NEVER preach by Jesus or any other prophet of God. So, unless you can show me that Jesus himself preached ‘the trinity’ in his lifetime, I will say the trinity is the immutable LIE spread by irresponsible people since the exit of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.


Islam is about submission.

True. Islam is about the submission to the One and Only God AND doing to His Will.


Christianity is about mercy and grace.

Not really. ‘Mercy and grace’ ARE parts of doing the Will of God. God wants you to be merciful to others because God IS merciful. The main preaching of Jesus is submission and doing the Will of the One and Only God. The preaching of Jesus is according to what God wants him to preach, In other words, Jesus is just doing the Will of God.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
‘Abrahamic religion’ simply mean religion that preaches the belief in only 1 God. So, on that basis, Judaism, Islam and Christianity falls under the ‘Abrahamic religion’ category.
Muslims and Christians worship the same God. The difference is only in their understanding of who God is. It’s like the story of the 6 blind men and the elephant – because they were blind and each of them was touching different parts of the elephant, they all have different understanding of what is an elephant but their differences in their respective understanding does NOT change the fact that they are describing and touching the SAME elephant.

Muslims believe in the ABSOLUTE ONENESS of God, while Christians, in particular the Trinitarians, believe in a ‘3-in-1’ God which was NEVER preach by Jesus or any other prophet of God. So, unless you can show me that Jesus himself preached ‘the trinity’ in his lifetime, I will say the trinity is the immutable LIE spread by irresponsible people since the exit of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

True. Islam is about the submission to the One and Only God AND doing to His Will.
Not really. ‘Mercy and grace’ ARE parts of doing the Will of God. God wants you to be merciful to others because God IS merciful. The main preaching of Jesus is submission and doing the Will of the One and Only God. The preaching of Jesus is according to what God wants him to preach, In other words, Jesus is just doing the Will of God.
JerryMyers , "Muslims and Christians worship the same God."

A wrong surmise. We Muslims believe in One G-d, the Pauline-Christianity people believe in Trinity. No Muslim believes in Jesus-god or Spirit-god. Right friend, please?
No Muslim prays to or worships Jesus-god or Spirit-god. Right, please?

Regards
I am an Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslim
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I tend to agree with that.

It's also an obviously false claim, since the oldest religions are not at all monotheistic.
Playing Devil's advocate again.

It is obvious that the innate religious impulse can be misdirected into error. That ancient people tended towards polytheism is not surprising to this view. As without the guidance of revelation most people will certainly go wrong in their conceptions of God and divine truths. Under this view then polytheism was a predictable consequence of unguided ancients seeing apparent agency in natural forces.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
‘Abrahamic religion’ simply mean religion that preaches the belief in only 1 God. So, on that basis, Judaism, Islam and Christianity falls under the ‘Abrahamic religion’ category.
Monotheism is not necessarily Abrahamic. Otherwise many Hindu schools would be Abrahamic.

In my view, Abrahamic religions are faith traditions that in some way base themselves on Biblical narrative. Islam affirms that narrative even though it rejects the Hebrew Bible as such.

Muslims believe in the ABSOLUTE ONENESS of God, while Christians, in particular the Trinitarians, believe in a ‘3-in-1’ God which was NEVER preach by Jesus or any other prophet of God. So, unless you can show me that Jesus himself preached ‘the trinity’ in his lifetime, I will say the trinity is the immutable LIE spread by irresponsible people since the exit of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.
The Trinity does not deny the oneness of God. And while the Trinity is not explicitly stated in the New Testament, it is implicit in its identification of Jesus as both the Word of God (the Logos) and God.
 
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JerryMyers

Active Member
JerryMyers , "Muslims and Christians worship the same God."

A wrong surmise. We Muslims believe in One G-d, the Pauline-Christianity people believe in Trinity. No Muslim believes in Jesus-god or Spirit-god. Right friend, please?
No Muslim prays to or worships Jesus-god or Spirit-god. Right, please?

Regards
I am an Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslim
Hi paarsurrey,

I NEVER say Muslims pray to or worship Jesus as a god. The reason we have so many religions/beliefs is NOT that there are many gods – the truth is, there’s only one and ONLY ONE TRUE God. So, if there’s only one true God, then, what makes people worship ‘different gods’ or a ‘3-in-1 god’, is only in their (mis)understandings or (mis)perceptions of who that ONE TRUE God is.

If you say Muslims worship one God and the Christians worship a different God, then, you yourself believe in more than one god, when, in reality, there is only ONE God and besides Him, there are no other gods – right ? Saying you are a Muslim and believe in only one God, but at the same time, says Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God is like saying you don’t believe in ghosts but at the same time you believe your local theater is haunted.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Monotheism is not necessarily Abrahamic. Otherwise many Hindu schools would be Abrahamic.

Monotheism means believing in only one God. Abrahamic religions are those religions that profess in the belief of only one God. So, not sure what you really mean by saying “Monotheism is not necessarily Abrahamic”.

Hindus worship many gods and goddesses although at the same time, they may believe in one Supreme God, whom they call as Paramatma (Supreme Self), Parameshwar (Supreme Lord), Parampita (Supreme Father). Worshipping many gods and goddesses, but at the same time believing in one Supreme God don’t make Hinduism monotheism.

In my view, Abrahamic religions are faith traditions that in some way base themselves on Biblical narrative. Islam affirms that narrative even though it rejects the Hebrew Bible as such.

Not really. Abrahamic religions are NOT in some way, based on Biblical narrative, but they are based on the teaching and preaching of the many prophets sent by God from time to time throughout the ages. All prophets of God preach the worship of only ONE God. Jesus himself preached the worship to the One and Only God – he NEVER preach the trinity.

Islam never affirm the overall narratives of the Bible. What Islam affirms is what is the truth and what are man-made lies about the teaching and preaching of His prophets, in particular, Jesus Christ, as recorded in the scripture, especially the NT which was written long after Jesus had left.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In my opinion, all religions are man-made including Islam.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Monotheism means believing in only one God. Abrahamic religions are those religions that profess in the belief of only one God. So, not sure what you really mean by saying “Monotheism is not necessarily Abrahamic”.
Because monotheism is not exclusive to the Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, but that does not mean that all monotheistic religions are Abrahamic.

Chocolate is confectionery, but not all confectionery is chocolate.

Hindus worship many gods and goddesses although at the same time, they may believe in one Supreme God, whom they call as Paramatma (Supreme Self), Parameshwar (Supreme Lord), Parampita (Supreme Father). Worshipping many gods and goddesses, but at the same time believing in one Supreme God don’t make Hinduism monotheism.
I said that there are many traditions and schools of thought within Hinduism that are monotheistic, or at least approach monotheism in implication. I did not say that Hinduism itself is monotheistic.

Not really. Abrahamic religions are NOT in some way, based on Biblical narrative, but they are based on the teaching and preaching of the many prophets sent by God from time to time throughout the ages. All prophets of God preach the worship of only ONE God. Jesus himself preached the worship to the One and Only God – he NEVER preach the trinity.
What you fail to see is that your doctrine here makes no sense except in reference to Biblical narrative. The Qur'an itself assumes familiarity with the Biblical narratives especially those in the Pentateuch. Abraham, Moses, Jesus... These names would be meaningless to a society without knowledge of the Bible.

Islam never affirm the overall narratives of the Bible. What Islam affirms is what is the truth and what are man-made lies about the teaching and preaching of His prophets, in particular, Jesus Christ, as recorded in the scripture, especially the NT which was written long after Jesus had left.
Islam assumes the Bible even if Muslims - for their claims to work - are forced to reject the texts as corruptions. Muhammad's claims to being the final prophet would make no sense to any culture without Biblical context. What would "Seal of the Prophets" even mean to a seventh century Japanese peasant? Nothing. Because such a concept assumes familiarity with Biblical concepts.
 
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JerryMyers

Active Member
Because monotheism is not exclusive to the Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, but that does not mean that all monotheistic religions are Abrahamic.
Chocolate is confectionery, but not all confectionery is chocolate.
Of course, you are right, but the focus of the subject matter here is Abrahamic religions and all Abrahamic religions are monotheistic in belief. Likewise, if the subject matter is chocolate, then, it’s 100 percent correct to say chocolate is confectionery, but, that would NOT be totally correct if the subject matter is confectionery.

I said that there are many traditions and schools of thought within Hinduism that are monotheistic, or at least approach monotheism in implication. I did not say that Hinduism itself is monotheistic.
Monotheism is about the belief in only 1 God and other common characterics, it’s not about traditions and different schools of thought within a particular religion.

What you fail to see is that your doctrine here makes no sense except in reference to Biblical narrative. The Qur'an itself assumes familiarity with the Biblical narratives especially those in the Pentateuch. Abraham, Moses, Jesus... These names would be meaningless to a society without knowledge of the Bible.
What you fail to see is that Jesus himself is only familiar with the Pentateuch. Jesus himself has never heard of the New Testament or the term ‘Christian/Christianity’ in his entire life on earth. So, it’s only natural for the Qur’an to assume familiarity with the Pentateuch, just as Jesus would assume familiarity with the Pentateuch every time he made references to the Scripture – I can assure you Jesus certainly was NOT making references to the NT.

Islam assumes the Bible even if Muslims - for their claims to work - are forced to reject the texts as corruptions. Muhammad's claims to being the final prophet would make no sense to any culture without Biblical context. What would "Seal of the Prophets" even mean to a seventh century Japanese peasant? Nothing. Because such a concept assumes familiarity with Biblical concepts.
Islam simply means submission to the One and Only God and a Muslim is one who submits and does the Will of the One and Only God. Even Jesus’ main teaching is about submitting and doing the Will of the One and Only God. So, to say Islam assumes the Bible and are forced to reject the texts as corruptions is simply BS. Fact is your own scripture affirm the scribes have been corrupting the scripture and turning it into a book of lies, and this happens as early as in the times of Jeremiah! So, it makes a lot of sense that the Bible you have today is a mixture of truth and lies. It’s sad that Christians today primarily listen and follow the words and preaching of other people rather than the words of Jesus as recorded in their own Bible.
 
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