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Are theists more violent than atheists?

Are theists or atheists more violent?

  • Theists are more violent

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • Atheists are more violent

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • Theists and atheists are equally violent

    Votes: 9 23.1%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • We can't possibly know one way or another

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • This poll does not reflect my thinking

    Votes: 5 12.8%

  • Total voters
    39

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I don’t have a theologically justified reason for being violent. That narrows the scope down quite a bit to emotionally motivated reasons, which hardly pass any logically justified reasoning. So, yes, people that believe in a non-rational absolute authority are more likely to justify their violent actions via said authority.

Human nature is capable of violence regardless of belief, of course. It’s just not the same in the absence of theological justification. Without a deity, we are more responsible for our actions.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
That is sadly true....but it only happens when those who lead the theocracy fail to obey their God.

Justification is the catalyst for violence in many instances....for Christians, it is a reason to put Jesus in the closet and allow your patriotic feelings to take over. You then let him out once you have washed the blood from your hands.....trouble is, that blood is on your head. :confused:
Well...I was thinking of any religion. Nowadays the only surviving theocracy within Christendom is the Vatican.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
There are more red vehicles involved in accidents than any other color.
Which makes sense because
there are more red vehicles than any other color
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Nah, they were not big fan of "free love" and "sex and rock'n roll". If you want to see the ideal of Christianity, I'd look to monks and nuns who have made vows of poverty, contemplation and charity and take them very seriously.
If only other Christians could learn from their example
*looks at rich *** super church*
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well...I was thinking of any religion. Nowadays the only surviving theocracy within Christendom is the Vatican.

Theocracy in the Vatican?....ummmm, sorry, I can’t really see it.

A “theocracy” is “rule by God”...not the Pope or “the church”.

Being ruled by God means obeying his laws and living as Christ lived. Please tell me in what way those who live in the Vatican live the same kind of life as Jesus and his apostles did? :shrug:

Original Christianity had no Pope....or large ornate buildings or distinctive clothing or funny hats. Their worship was less formal, with emphasis more on Bible education than repetitive, ritualistic worship and repetitive prayers.

Jesus never lived in a gold inlaid palace with servants or with stores of priceless treasures whilst his disciples were starving or homeless.
He never advocated torture or violence and no conversion was ever at the point of a sword.

As a Jew, Jesus would have strictly obeyed his Father’s law on idolatry.....which forbade the “making” of any image used in worship. (Exodus 20:4)

Jesus never recommended a cloistered monastic life or taking vows of silence. He taught his disciples to be preachers of God’s Kingdom. He advocated for the poor and castigated the Pharisees for being neglectful shepherds whose teachings were making people spiritually sick.

Christianity today is a fractured, hopelessly divided mess, compared to what was taught by Jesus and his apostles back in the first century. I think the church has drifted a long way from the original simplicity that marked those teachings.

When you compare, it seems to me that whatever Jesus taught, the church decided to do the opposite...:oops:
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Or are atheists more violent than theists?

How can we know? Can we know?

What is the evidence one way or another?

Lets say there is an objective morality created by your theology, the Bahai religion.

Then there are a growing number of atheists in this pool of human beings that has that morality inbuilt, the atheists, even if they are nihilists or dont believe they are so, still would carry that same objective morality and believe it is subjective.

Thus, Atheists are also carrying the same morality. So obviously, both will be similar.

But that does not mean religion of the Bahai's was useless. Because they instilled that morality though atheists would deny it.

Hope you understand.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I see all violence as evil.

But what drives the violence is probably more the issue IMO.....both camps are capable of justifying violence when an issue close to their heart is involved or violated. Political or religious issues seem to produce equal fervor when it comes to fighting an opponent who has slighted your most precious principles and ideals (the violence does not have to be physical IMO) so.....science is defended by the atheist, and religion or God by the theist. There are bound to be ruffle feathers if there is strong disagreement.....BUT then there is an issue that crosses both boundaries according to my observation....patriotism. Theists and atheists seem to have equal desire to fight for their country.....it is an expectation that military service is part of a person's duty to their nation to take up arms, and for some it means jail if they refuse. Being a pacifist is still unacceptable and even punishable in some nations, as it was in our nations in earlier times. But in today's world, too many who serve their country in armed conflicts, are so damaged when they return home, that their lives and relationships are ruined. Is the price too high then? Who has the right to ruin someone's life by making them feel like its some sort of sacred duty to go and kill people because of national or political differences?

I see Patriotism and Nationalism both as religious concepts because saluting you nation's flag is considered an act of worship....the flag itself is viewed as a sacred object....and National Anthems are considered 'hymns' ( prayers set to music)....theists and atheists alike will join as one when patriotic issues are involved. Both will then participate equally in violence...but should they?

For Christians the answer is simple.....follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in all things. (not just some things) No politics, ( He said, be "no part of the world") no patriotism, ( "God is not partial"....we are all citizens of planet Earth) no violence ("love your neighbor" and even your "enemies") and put religion and science in their proper place. (If everything is a "creation of God"...there can be no arguments. Science and creation must mesh.)....we find the way to combine them so that one does not contradict the other.

Is this impossible? I don't think so....

Thanks for an interesting post.

I find myself agreeing with some of what you say but disagreeing on other points.

Historically, Christian thought has taken a number of approaches to war.

Christianity and violence - Wikipedia

We all know Christianity isn't a passivist religion and nor should we expect it to be. Imaging if the USA had not responded to the Pearl Harbor attack from the Japanese or the British had not resisted Nazi Germany.

The prerogative towards passivism is present in some groups including a minority of Christian sects.

There is no doubt war results in unimaginable harm and all efforts towards peaceful resolution need to be made but sometimes war is necessary and the God of the Christian Bible has commanded it if some of the OT stories are anything to go by.

Nationalism certainly has contributed to the expansionist behaviours of some notable countries during the twentieth century and beyond. I don't see a problem with having pride in one's country but that can certainly become excessive and harmful. I quite like the NZ national anthem!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Lets say there is an objective morality created by your theology, the Bahai religion.

Then there are a growing number of atheists in this pool of human beings that has that morality inbuilt, the atheists, even if they are nihilists or dont believe they are so, still would carry that same objective morality and believe it is subjective.

Thus, Atheists are also carrying the same morality. So obviously, both will be similar.

But that does not mean religion of the Bahai's was useless. Because they instilled that morality though atheists would deny it.

Hope you understand.

Its often said in the West we live in a post-Christian world. We may be secular but the influences of Christianity are still very strong. An analogy that makes sense from a Baha'i perspective is that of the yeast towards the bread. The yeast may be a relatively small proportion of the cooking material but plays a role in promoting core values. So I agree with your post.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Its often said in the West we live in a post-Christian world. We may be secular but the influences of Christianity are still very strong. An analogy that makes sense from a Baha'i perspective is that of the yeast towards the bread. The yeast may be a relatively small proportion of the cooking material but plays a role in promoting core values. So I agree with your post.

I think you put it easier and better than me. Yep, I agree with you.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Its often said in the West we live in a post-Christian world. We may be secular but the influences of Christianity are still very strong. An analogy that makes sense from a Baha'i perspective is that of the yeast towards the bread. The yeast may be a relatively small proportion of the cooking material but plays a role in promoting core values. So I agree with your post.
Beware being able to stand on the shoulders of giants and not being able to see further than them because one is too in awe of/attached to the past.

We can stand on the shoulders of primitive Christian and other philosophers and motivated by a well developed sense of empathy and compassion see further than them - to the point of genuinely compassionate treatment of the homosexual for example, or promoting the authentic equality of women at every level - if we want to, or we can rest on our laurels and pretend that it is not possible to progress beyond the past.

The choice is ours to make.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Or are atheists more violent than theists?

How can we know? Can we know?

What is the evidence one way or another?


I voted that the poll does not reflect my thinking

I believe on an individual level both theists and atheists are equally violent

On a group level, theists win the violence award hands down

We are all human but there are far more theists than atheists

My personal experience, of the 5 times in my life that i have encountered violence (either physical or mental) the perp has always had a christian background.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I like complicated and that’s why I asked the question. Religion can clearly have a role in promoting peace or violence. It won’t be hard for either of us to come up with anecdotal examples as you have. There are examples of violent and peaceful communities too. We would be hard pressed to generalise those examples to all theists and atheists. So the best approach IMHO would be avoiding characterisation of atheists or theists as being more violent or peaceful than the other.

I've learned to dislike the atheist/theist competition as well. It seems childish to me. Far better to look at individuals through other methods besides generalisations about their group.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
How violent one is, in my opinion, depends on the nature of the individual rather than their views on theism.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Or are atheists more violent than theists?

How can we know? Can we know?

What is the evidence one way or another?
IF a Theist is defined as "Love thy neighbor as thyself"
THEN probably Theists are less violent than Atheists

To believe in a Supreme Being, God or deities usually will create fear of sin, at least more than in Atheists, hence chances are that a true Theist will be less violent over all than a true Atheist (I don't talk about killing, just usual stuff, not being sarcastic for starters). Many Theists on the other hand proselytize, which is violent, because they belittle others. So it also depends on whether or not the Theist is into proselytizing

Pure Atheist means nothing, just "lack of belief in God".
IF he also has virtues like being a humanist, being humane, then he can very well be less violent than a strongly proselytizing Theist.

Note: Theism is defined as "the belief in the existence of a Supreme Being or deities"
Note: Atheism is defined as "lack of belief in God", not as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or any other lofty ideals
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
There are more red vehicles involved in accidents than any other color.
Which makes sense because
there are more red vehicles than any other color

Except that grayscale cars, (white, black, gray, and silver) are the most popular colors, at least in the US.

What Is the Most Common Car Color?

But you still make a good point.

I remember when I learned to drive, they were driving home the importance of wearing seat belts and that many didn't snap one on when driving distances less than 5 miles from home. Then they pointed out that more than half of accidents happen within 5 miles from home. My first thought was, "Duh, that's because most trips occur less than 5 miles from home!"
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I think atheists are more violent than theists.

Look at this:

Marx was Satanic and killed like 100 million people or his philosophy.

Hitler was a fake Christian and killed like 10 million people with severe torture.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed fewer, but it was the quickest mass-killing ever and many suffered radiation cancer for a long time. It was entirely secular.

So yeah, I think atheists are more violent than theists. The Raelians maybe, maybe not.
So a few individuals causing a lot of deaths equates to this? :oops: Surely that just shows their effectiveness rather than anything else.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Behaviour which way though? Surely you've met folks who've become worse people by getting religious.That same person who thinks he's become a better person might very well be seen as a jerk by old friends. My acquaintance who allowed his gay son's gay friends to use his house as a safe after school hangout got better by becoming less religious.

It's complicated.

Yeah. Sadly my gay former girlfriend (current best friend) had a friend years ago who did most everything together. Later on, they went seperate ways. Then they ran into each other and her friend turned JW. The friend no longer wanted to associate and be friends with my former. She said because she is "no longer gay" she can't relate to those who are.

On RF years ago, one lady became religious and then started evangelizing with the same time and language as others. Then she became atheist and people Literally commented on her niceness. You have others who seperate spiritual and ns people in hopes to either teach them or disregard them for not knowing spiritual matters. Spiritual ego I think it's called.

Even I was catholic I was torn between the dichotomy of self preservation of values and following another by disregarding them. It put more weight on my soul than just following the spirits without that guilt.

I know atheist tend to be sarcastic (I guess not believing in god makes a difference?). We just tend to change our behavior easier than many since we're not battling with justifications that's not aligned with who we are. No more inner battles.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The answer depends on one's definitions of an atheist person and a religious person. The confusion has to do with many atheists, having had previous religious training as children, but chose, as an adult, to become defined as atheists. If such people do good they are called atheists by the atheists and if they do bad they are called religious by the atheists. Stacking the deck with dual standards adds to the confusion.

For example, Dawkins who is often considered a poster child for atheism, is self described, in his biography, as having been brought up as an Anglican. Later in life he became an atheist. Hitler was raised as a Christian, but later in life Hitler believed in social Darwinism; superior race, which was an atheist concept. These two men are treated with dual standards by atheism. They atheists will own up to Dawkins, even with his early religious upbringing, but not Hitler, even though both men found atheism later in life. The math becomes fudged.

If you look at life on America, the left, which is less religious, than the right, sides more with atheism. It is far less tolerant and had more violent demonstrations in 2020. They are more likely to censor free speech, force conformity and become vindictive. This will be blamed, by atheists, on early religious training, like Hitler, and not choices as adults, like Dawkins.

Most of the violence in America's large inner cities is connected to atheists; the criminal godless, who are not officially card carrying atheists. They may have started out with basic religious training. But in the end, one can tell a tree by the fruit it bears. The violence is not about love or self defense of others, but about criminal behavior for self enrichment and clans; drug and gang wars. That is not taught by religion.

Based on these observations, I tend to believe the worse offenders are those whose belief systems are conflicting hybrids; have both conflicting religious and atheists leanings. These tend to be the worse, since they are often in conflict, while lacking the reliable moral restrain. For example, in America, the talk of reparations for blacks, by the left, is an atheist spin off from the religious concept of original sin. Just as in the story of Adam and Eve, future generations beyond the originals, are somehow assumed scarred and liable, for the past, independent of their own actions. This is how the conflicted hybrid minds think. They used calculated bastardization of religious doctrine for atheist-religious manipulations. This can rally other hybrids, since it appears to bridge the chasm of doubt

If anyone remembers the Russian Collusion Delusion in the USA, from 2016-19, this is where all the senior level leaders within the Democrats party, conned and lied nonstop, for three years, until the lies were exposed. Then the lying was buried, like it never happened. Pelosi and Schumer, to name the top two con artists of that era, are often labeled as Catholic and Jewish, respectively. However, both bastardized the truth, based on self serving calculations not in their religions. They are hybrids; wolves in lamb's clothing. They are the worse and give a bad name to both the true atheists and the true religious, who are far less conflicted.

When I became a teen, I was inhibited by my early religious training as a child. This initially prevented me from participating in the wild times of the 1970's; sex, drugs and rock-n-roll. Since I wanted to participate, I decided to become an atheist, since this was more conductive to those ends. The godless could dive in the deepest. In my hybrid, the ends could justify the means, instead of the means being censored up front by moral law. I justified the immorality as being part of a useful learning experience. However, I could only go half way; some inhibitions remained. This was the place I needed to be. Later in life, this center translated to the goal of finding how these two orientations could unite. In the end, religion is about the needs of the inner self, while atheism is about the needs of the ego. Both are needed to feel complete and content.
 
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