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Love the sinner and hate the sin

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Even if a person can't think of anyone going to hell, the Bible teaches that the day Jesus died he went to hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Not to some religious-myth hell taught by false clergy, but to the Bible's hell which is simply the temporary grave for the sleeping dead.

I find salvation comes at the end, so a minor child is protected, so to speak, by the parent until mature.
Just like dead Jesus, dead people go to hell, Not to some religious-myth hell but biblical hell which is the common grave for mankind.
If the common grave is how you understand "hell", then it would be easier for you, and those hearing you, if you were to say the "grave" instead of hell. Imagine, on an Easter Sunday, you are going with extended family to the cemetery to visit your departed grandparents, who were of a different version of Christian faith than yours, say Catholics, to lay flowers and such. What do you think their reaction would be if you were to say, "I enjoy getting together each year to pay our respects to grandma and grandpa in hell"? I think you get my point.

That aside, back to my issue about the 'technicality' of the believing spouse or child supposedly covering them so they can get saved, while they themselves don't have any belief in Jesus as the messiah. You still did not answer the problem about God just letting billions of non-Christian children, born to non-Christian adults, in other countries and cultures where Christianity is not the main culturally adopted religion, in essence just being annihilated verses saved.

"Tough luck, little ones! You weren't covered by a Christian parent. To the grave forever with you, unlike your 4 year old friend from Kindergarten whose parents joined the Jehovah's Witnesses last week!" Does that seem just, moral, and fair of God to parse out destinations based upon club memberships covering family members, like a YMCA pass?

If we think about these things with our hearts, they just don't match up with a loving God very well.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If the common grave is how you understand "hell", then it would be easier for you, and those hearing you, if you were to say the "grave" instead of hell. Imagine, on an Easter Sunday, you are going with extended family to the cemetery to visit your departed grandparents, who were of a different version of Christian faith than yours, say Catholics, to lay flowers and such. What do you think their reaction would be if you were to say, "I enjoy getting together each year to pay our respects to grandma and grandpa in hell"? I think you get my point.
That aside, back to my issue about the 'technicality' of the believing spouse or child supposedly covering them so they can get saved, while they themselves don't have any belief in Jesus as the messiah. You still did not answer the problem about God just letting billions of non-Christian children, born to non-Christian adults, in other countries and cultures where Christianity is not the main culturally adopted religion, in essence just being annihilated verses saved.
"Tough luck, little ones! You weren't covered by a Christian parent. To the grave forever with you, unlike your 4 year old friend from Kindergarten whose parents joined the Jehovah's Witnesses last week!" Does that seem just, moral, and fair of God to parse out destinations based upon club memberships covering family members, like a YMCA pass?
If we think about these things with our hearts, they just don't match up with a loving God very well.

Remember: God only took the action that He took in Noah's day because the people were beyond reform, beyond repenting.
If God had Not taken the action that He did those violent people would have killed off Noah and family leaving No one righteous on Earth.
Remember: Revelation 7:9 informs us that a ' great crowd ' of people will be 'saved/delivered/rescued' through the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14.
Remember: Jesus is the one who will decide - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-21

Yes, I did say that 'biblical hell' is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold 'grave' for the sleeping dead.
That is because Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Remember: God only took the action that He took in Noah's day because the people were beyond reform, beyond repenting.
If God had Not taken the action that He did those violent people would have killed off Noah and family leaving No one righteous on Earth.
To interpret what you are saying by citing this, you're saying God knew in advance that these babes and sucklings born to parents of other religions were destined to become evil in life, so he in essence just preemptively annihilated them? Again, what the heart hears here, is rather unjust, cruel, and unloving, to say the least.

When Jesus said, unless you become like little children you cannot see the kingdom of heaven, he must have really meant according to your theology, "Unless you become as a child born to a family who are saved by me, you're just out of luck. The rules, are the rules."?

My heart hears all of this as so very legalistic, and not loving. We need to either earn God's love, or be lucky enough to get a free pass from someone else who did. I just can't feel any of that as true at all.

Remember: Revelation 7:9 informs us that a ' great crowd ' of people will be 'saved/delivered/rescued' through the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14.
Remember: Jesus is the one who will decide - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-21
So, now you are saying these innocent children who died will get a chance to be approved for entry in to paradise at that time, unlike those children who died whose parents were approved Christians who got a free pre-approved pass in on their coat tails, including unbelieving spouses too? This is a very confusing picture of God to me.

Yes, I did say that 'biblical hell' is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold 'grave' for the sleeping dead.
That is because Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
When you speak of the grave as going to hell in modern time, the vast majority of people hear being damned to eternal torture for being born to the wrong parents.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
To interpret what you are saying by citing this, you're saying God knew in advance that these babes and sucklings born to parents of other religions were destined to become evil in life, so he in essence just preemptively annihilated them? Again, what the heart hears here, is rather unjust, cruel, and unloving, to say the least.
When Jesus said, unless you become like little children you cannot see the kingdom of heaven, he must have really meant according to your theology, "Unless you become as a child born to a family who are saved by me, you're just out of luck. The rules, are the rules."?
My heart hears all of this as so very legalistic, and not loving. We need to either earn God's love, or be lucky enough to get a free pass from someone else who did. I just can't feel any of that as true at all.
So, now you are saying these innocent children who died will get a chance to be approved for entry in to paradise at that time, unlike those children who died whose parents were approved Christians who got a free pre-approved pass in on their coat tails, including unbelieving spouses too? This is a very confusing picture of God to me.
When you speak of the grave as going to hell in modern time, the vast majority of people hear being damned to eternal torture for being born to the wrong parents.

Wrong: There is No such Bible teaching as: eternal torture. The dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; John 11:11-14.
Wrong: God does Not know in advance - Please notice the great crowd of Revelation 7:9 is an un-numbered amount of people.
ALL are free to act responsibly toward God. Notice 2 Peter 3:9 we can choose to ' repent ' if we don't want to ' perish ' ( be destroyed Not tortured )
Jesus reference was in that children are teachable, and if we refuse to let Jesus teach us as a parent teaches a child, that is on us.

Again, biblical hell is just the common temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Meaning while dead Jesus was in hell he was in the grave 'sleeping' - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Isaiah 38:18.
Again, No eternal torture because the dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3

What is confusing is what false clergy teach (eternal torture) as being Scripture when it is Not Scripture.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wrong: There is No such Bible teaching as: eternal torture. The dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; John 11:11-14.
Sure, fine. I don't believe hell exists either. That's not an argument from me. Other than to say, for you to use the term hell, when you are speaking of the grave if that's what you mean, will not be heard that way. People understand hell by virtue of our culture, as a place a flames and torture.

Wrong: God does Not know in advance - Please notice the great crowd of Revelation 7:9 is an un-numbered amount of people.
ALL are free to act responsibly toward God. Notice 2 Peter 3:9 we can choose to ' repent ' if we don't want to ' perish ' ( be destroyed Not tortured )
Did I say anything that you think I was saying that? Not sure what you're arguing with here.

Can't see how that ties into God letting billions of children, who were underaged to begin with to make any sort of conversion-type choices, just end up out of luck and perishing in the grave because their parents didn't give them a free pass to heaven on their coattails? Too bad for them their parents weren't believers?

What did those other kids do to deserve being made dust, when their friends with Christian parents get to take them to heaven? What did they do to God to deserve that fate? A choice of some kind?

Jesus reference was in that children are teachable, and if we refuse to let Jesus teach us as a parent teaches a child, that is on us.
It's interesting you interpret that as them being teachable. I've always read that as them being open to Life, not shut out from it like those who wrangle with questions and concerns about God, letting them into heaven or not if their parents aren't Christians. :)

But what about that 4 year old child in Singapore who got crushed by a taxi cab? He was a child. Are you saying because he didn't learn about Jesus and accept him as his savior, tough luck kiddo, it's the dirt for you forever? I can't square that with what Jesus was saying. Can you?

Again, biblical hell is just the common temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Meaning while dead Jesus was in hell he was in the grave 'sleeping' - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Isaiah 38:18.
Again, No eternal torture because the dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3

What is confusing is what false clergy teach (eternal torture) as being Scripture when it is Not Scripture.
I'm not sure who you are replying to here, because I don't believe I've ever argued in favor of there being a hell. I don't believe any such thing exists. God doesn't torture unbelievers, nor does God reward anyone with get out of "hell" free passes because of them happening to have a relationship with someone who believes in Jesus. That's ridiculous.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sure, fine. I don't believe hell exists either. That's not an argument from me. Other than to say, for you to use the term hell, when you are speaking of the grave if that's what you mean, will not be heard that way. People understand hell by virtue of our culture, as a place a flames and torture.
Can't see how that ties into God letting billions of children, who were underaged to begin with to make any sort of conversion-type choices, just end up out of luck and perishing in the grave because their parents didn't give them a free pass to heaven on their coattails? Too bad for them their parents weren't believers?
What did those other kids do to deserve being made dust, when their friends with Christian parents get to take them to heaven? What did they do to God to deserve that fate? A choice of some kind?
It's interesting you interpret that as them being teachable. I've always read that as them being open to Life, not shut out from it like those who wrangle with questions and concerns about God, letting them into heaven or not if their parents aren't Christians. :)
But what about that 4 year old child in Singapore who got crushed by a taxi cab? He was a child. Are you saying because he didn't learn about Jesus and accept him as his savior, tough luck kiddo, it's the dirt for you forever? I can't square that with what Jesus was saying. Can you?
I'm not sure who you are replying to here, because I don't believe I've ever argued in favor of there being a hell. I don't believe any such thing exists. God doesn't torture unbelievers, nor does God reward anyone with get out of "hell" free passes because of them happening to have a relationship with someone who believes in Jesus. That's ridiculous.

First of all, Heaven is only for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18,
Adam was never offered Heaven, but offered everlasting life here on Earth forever.
No one who died before Jesus died was offered Heaven - John 3:13
So, I find the majority of people will have a physically healthy earthly resurrection, this would include for their minor children.
There is No 'conversion-type choices' needed for minor children, they can be covered by the parents.
Only God knows the reaching point of wickedness that such people are beyond repenting, beyond reform - Psalms 92:7; 104:35
False clergy usually does Not teach about God's purpose for Earth: that God's will (His purpose) be done here on Earth ( as it is in Heaven.... )
In Heaven there is No sickness, No death so we are asking for those same good heavenly conditions to come and exist right here on Earth.
Through Christ, then mankind will have the healthy conditions as described in Isaiah 35th chapter, Isaiah 33:24.
Even ' enemy death ' will cease to exist here on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
First of all, Heaven is only for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18,
Adam was never offered Heaven, but offered everlasting life here on Earth forever.
No one who died before Jesus died was offered Heaven - John 3:13
So, I find the majority of people will have a physically healthy earthly resurrection, this would include for their minor children.
Fine, you see the reward not as heaven, but as immortality. It's still a reward offered only to children who just happened to be born to the right parents, who happened to join the right church, while the rest of the billions of children that happened to be born to non-Christian families, should they die in childhood will just turn to dust, and no reward for having the right parents.

Again, I ask you, does this sound fair? It creates an image of God which is very legalistic, and heartless. Does that set well with your sense of fairness and compassion? "Sorry young ones, only children whose parents were good people and joined the right church, can give a free pass to only their children in order to curry God's favor to give immortality on a paradise earth. Sorry for the rest of you, but the rules, are the rules."

I can't fathom that.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Fine, you see the reward not as heaven, but as immortality. It's still a reward offered only to children who just happened to be born to the right parents, who happened to join the right church, while the rest of the billions of children that happened to be born to non-Christian families, should they die in childhood will just turn to dust, and no reward for having the right parents.
Again, I ask you, does this sound fair? It creates an image of God which is very legalistic, and heartless. Does that set well with your sense of fairness and compassion? "Sorry young ones, only children whose parents were good people and joined the right church, can give a free pass to only their children in order to curry God's favor to give immortality on a paradise earth. Sorry for the rest of you, but the rules, are the rules." I can't fathom that.

Well, Not as immortality because ' everlasting life ' does Not have to equate to being: immortal. Adam had the opportunity to opt out of everlasting life.
The immortal are death proof, neither angels nor humans were created as death proof.
Even the fallen angels which include Satan will be ' destroyed '. Sinner Satan will be destroyed by Jesus as per Hebrews 2:14 B.

There were No Christian families before Pentecost - Please notice Romans 6:23,7 because DEATH stamps the price tag of sin as: PAID in FULL.
So, just as back then, DEATH is still the total asking price tag paid for one's sins. Resurrected parents will have their children back.
It is that we can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can resurrect us - Jesus can and will - Revelation1:18.

To me, what is fair is that now the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is being declared on a grand international scope as never before in history.
Remote translation offices produce Scripture in those remote areas so people can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.
In other words, how a living person now reacts to what Jesus said (Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8) will help determine whether they are a figurative humble ' sheep ' or haughty ' goat '. So, people place themselves as far as themselves as to whether they wicked or not.
Only who are judged as wicked will be destroyed - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
Earth is only promised to righteous-hearted people - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, Not as immortality because ' everlasting life ' does Not have to equate to being: immortal. Adam had the opportunity to opt out of everlasting life.
Fine, call it whatever you want. See it however you prefer. It's still a case of a reward, something good, something better, being offered to the children, who purely by chance were born to the right parents who joined the right church and gave them a free pass, an "escape the grave/hell/whatever you believe is less than desirable" ticket to not have to go there. Yet the billions of other innocent children, who purely by chance, were born to the wrong parents, and don't get that favored 'golden ticket' inherited by their parents to escape the grave/hell, whatever you want to call it.

The only question I asked you, is not your theological differences about interpretations of hell or heaven, but about the unfairness of some kids getting a free pass, while others suffer exclusion from whatever reward that is you believe theologically. That is unfair, unjust, and lacking in compassion.

How does that sit with you emotionally? That's the only thing I'm interested in hearing in your next response.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
How does that sit with you emotionally? That's the only thing I'm interested in hearing in your next response.

Emotionally it horrifies me that people would burn their children in fire as the people did at the time of Jeremiah 32:35; 2 Chronicles 28:3 for example.
Who in their right mind would even roast a vicious dog yet alone their children as did the people who sacrificed their children as food for their idols.
See also Ezekiel 23:37
If God had Not stepped in they would still be doing such moral filth. They were beyond reform.
Whereas, the action Jesus will take against the wicked is that the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of them - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15.

I notice you keep stressing 'innocent' children when every parent knows its child's leanings will be towards / wrongdoing.
What child does Not need loving guidance, as the old adage goes: ' As the twig is bent so the tree will grow '.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I notice you keep stressing 'innocent' children when every parent knows its child's leanings will be towards / wrongdoing.
So, you would be okay with God letting an infant of a non-believer rot in the grave, while the infant of a "saved" person gets to live forever? Is that as a special reward for being a believer?

They get to keep their children if they die, whereas the other babies born to non-believers just get tossed into hell, or the grave as you see that? Do you believe infants are sinful? Is a child in his mother's womb, sinful?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So, you would be okay with God letting an infant of a non-believer rot in the grave, while the infant of a "saved" person gets to live forever? Is that as a special reward for being a believer?
They get to keep their children if they die, whereas the other babies born to non-believers just get tossed into hell, or the grave as you see that? Do you believe infants are sinful? Is a child in his mother's womb, sinful?

No, babies are Not born sinful but every parent knows its child's leaning will lean / towards wrongdoing.
Scripture speaks of ' sleeping ' in the grave - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Just as a person can be awakened from sleep a person can be awakened on Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth)

People who died before Jesus (John 3:13) can have an earthly resurrection which includes resurrecting their minor children ( babies ).
The dead pay for their sins by their death. It is DEATH that stamps the total asking price tag that sin pays as: Paid In Full. - Romans 6:23,7
Just as with dead Adam, there is No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy for the dead.
As for we the living, at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth (Matthew 25:31-33,37) people choose to be either a figurative 'sheep or goat '.
People choose how they respond when they hear about the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalms 92:7.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, babies are Not born sinful but every parent knows its child's leaning will lean / towards wrongdoing.
Scripture speaks of ' sleeping ' in the grave - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Just as a person can be awakened from sleep a person can be awakened on Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth)

People who died before Jesus (John 3:13) can have an earthly resurrection which includes resurrecting their minor children ( babies ).
The dead pay for their sins by their death. It is DEATH that stamps the total asking price tag that sin pays as: Paid In Full. - Romans 6:23,7
Just as with dead Adam, there is No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy for the dead.
As for we the living, at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth (Matthew 25:31-33,37) people choose to be either a figurative 'sheep or goat '.
People choose how they respond when they hear about the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalms 92:7.
This still does not address why children of Christian parents get to be spared death, or rather get eternal life (in however you understand that be as reward), while children of non-Christian parents don't. Is that fair?
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
This came to mind for some odd and weird reason. It's about homosexuality.

How can any christian (and I assume any abrahamic scripture followerer) love the homosexual when they associate and the homosexual with same-sex sex and b. define the homosexual based on same-sex sex....?

Same-sex sex is compared to rape, incest, and murder in scripture.
How can you love someone and defines her akin to these detestable actions?

-
For example, a person who kills another person is a murderer. Likewise with a person who takes something that does not belong to her is a thief. According to the bible, those who have same-sex sex are homosexuals.

If one loves the sinner and hates the sin, they shouldn't correlate with each other.

Love a person and hate murder is different than saying love the murderer and hate the murder. Love the person and hate same-sex sex is different than love the homosexual and defining her by same-sex sex.
-

How would you define the phrase "love the sinner and hate the sin?"

How can you love a homosexual and define her akin to these detestable actions (rape, incest, murder, etc)?


The Prajapita Brahmakumaris consider all human beings as children of one God, irrespective of caste, race, nationality, religion, sexuality or gender.

All human beings are considered as eternal souls inhabiting temporary bodies and the focus is more on developing the state of consciousness and virtuous conduct/behavior .
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
This still does not address why children of Christian parents get to be spared death, or rather get eternal life (in however you understand that be as reward), while children of non-Christian parents don't. Is that fair?
Please notice John 3:13 because Not one of those persons were ever Christians. No one who lived before Jesus was a Christian.
No one is spared death, but through Jesus the resurrection is made possible for the dead going all the way back to: Abel.
Only God knows the point of No repenting. In other words, we can't read hearts but God can and He knows how a parent raises a child.
The old adage of: How a twig (child) is bent so the tree (adult) will grow .
Those parents of Noah's day were beyond hope and their offspring turning out just like the parent. (a chip off the old block, so to speak)
Without divine involvement in Noah's day those people would have killed off anyone righteous on Earth. It was a divine execution for them.
Earth was Not made for wicked people, so this is why Jesus will step in to rid the Earth of the wicked because their children would grow up like the parent.
Who turns out to be either a figurative ' sheep or goat ' at the soon coming 'time of separation' (Matthew 25:31-33,37) is in Jesus' hands to decide.
Parents decide how they behave and pass down how they want their children to behave. It is their free-will choice to listen to God or not.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The only question I asked you, is not your theological differences about interpretations of hell or heaven, but about the unfairness of some kids getting a free pass, while others suffer exclusion from whatever reward that is you believe theologically. That is unfair, unjust, and lacking in compassion..

Children who lived before Jesus lived can ' get a free pass ', so to speak, because of the parent being resurrected, so the child can be.
Resurrection for the dead goes back to Abel.
Since God can read hearts then God knows the point of No return for the children of wicked parents.
Divine execution is for the wicked to be destroyed forever - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-16; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalms 37:9-11; 92:7
Only humble meek people will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
All human beings are considered as eternal souls inhabiting temporary bodies and the focus is more on developing the state of consciousness and virtuous conduct/behavior .
That is where I find what the Bible really teaches differs because in Scripture there is No eternal soul ( meaning death-proof souls )
The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20 .
Adam was Not a temporary soul but a living soul until the day sinner Adam died - Genesis 2:7
Adam was only offered everlasting life right here on planet Earth and No where else.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life - Genesis 3:19
Dead Adam had No consciousness because the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5
No post-mortem life for Adam and no life for anyone else until the future resurrection hope - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Children who lived before Jesus lived can ' get a free pass ', so to speak, because of the parent being resurrected, so the child can be.
I assume you mean that free pass gets extended to children of parents from pagan cultures? Children of polytheists, for instance. Do they get to be resurrected to eternal life, because they have done nothing wrong in life yet, being just small children and all?

Since God can read hearts then God knows the point of No return for the children of wicked parents.
Are you saying he knows they would have turned out bad, so he doesn't give them a chance to earn damnation (or the grave, or however you prefer to see it)? He'll just give it to them for good measure, since they would have sinned eventually? Do you believe God would do that? Condemn someone for something they would probably do, instead of actually doing that thing?

Only humble meek people will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5
So all children, who died in childhood, regardless of their parent's religious affiliations, including children of witches, children of pagans, children of sun worshippers, children of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc, all inherit the Earth as Jesus promised?

I believe he did believe that personally, since he said that unless you were like a child, like all of those children everywhere, you won't see the kingdom of God. That must mean they all do. Do you believe that too?
 
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