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Was the Occupation of the Capitol Yesterday an Act of Sedition?

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Sure cell phones and social media... but I'm skeptical that they really were listening to Trump. First of all, Trump didn't call for violence or for breaking into the capital building. In fact, Trump called for his supporters to cheer for their representatives during the electoral process. Moreover, Trump twice called for peace, non-violence, and respect for law enforcement in his tweets. In a third tweet, Trump said "go home" and got banned from twitter.
They listen to Trump. That's what they do. He is their Dear Leader. And Dear Leader has been telling them for months, if not years that the election was rigged against him by evil people.

Trump told the rioters that he loved them and that they are special. Oh, and go home, as almost an afterthought. That's after he went on and on about how the election was stolen from him/them by evil people. And he only did that after being pressured to do so for hours. There is even word that he regrets making that particular speech (not the other ones though, oddly enough).


And that's a day after Trump incited them to "be strong" and told them he'd march with them to the Capitol building, which of course he didn't. Rudy Giuliani, meantime, called for a "trial by combat."
 
Did you hear or read the entire speech or did you get bits and pieces from OAN?

Here Trump is once again lying about the election being stolen to inflame his followers... Source...Donald Trump Speech "Save America" Rally Transcript January 6 - Rev

All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they’re doing and stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.
Note also, he, as always, denigrated the press. That's something that wannabe dictators do - denigrate or eliminate the opposition press.

We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.
We will not let them silence your voices. We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen.
I hope so because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.
All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to recertify, and we become president
...
I just spoke to Mike. I said, “Mike, that doesn’t take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing. That takes courage,” and then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot, and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen.
Then a really big lie...
Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you.
He didn't walk to congress with them. After the speech, he just went home. Weak and spineless. Castro led the march on Havana, Trump went home to watch others fight for him.

...you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.​



Source?

Trump said "go home" long after the riots started".

He got banned from Twitter because, as even spineless sheeple Lindsey Graham said, "enough is enough". Five years of lying and inflaming and inciting.

Parler's server companies have also shut him down - and all of his followers.


Just to add, I skim-read all of Trump's speech. There was about fifty minutes of him just rambling somewhat incoherently and repeating all the false claims about the election fraud. Claims that have been repeatedly found to be baseless.
You summarized it nicely but here are some additional moments when he incited the crowd to contemplate more than just peaceful protest. Courtesy of the NYT:

Trump urged his supporters to ‘fight much harder’ against ‘bad people’ and ‘show strength’ at the Capitol.


“Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer. And we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. And we’re going to have to fight much harder. …

“We’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them, because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”


The president’s speech was riddled with violent imagery and calls to fight harder than before. By contrast, he made only a passing suggestion that the protest should be nonviolent, saying, “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”


During Mr. Trump’s impeachment last year, one of his defenses was that the primary accusation against him — that he abused his power by withholding aid to Ukraine in an attempt to get its president to announce a corruption investigation into Mr. Biden — was not an ordinary crime, so it did not matter even if it were true. Most legal specialists said that made no difference for impeachment purposes, but in any case that argument would not be a defense here. Several laws clearly make it a crime to incite a riot or otherwise try to get another person to engage in a violent crime against property or people.


Trump told the crowd that ‘very different rules’ applied.


“When you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules. So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do, and I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to.”


Whipping up anger against Republicans who were not going along with his plan for subverting the election, like Vice President Mike Pence, Mr. Trump told the crowd that “different rules” now applied. At the most obvious level, the president was arguing that what he wanted Mr. Pence to do — reject the state-certified Electoral College results — would be legitimate, but the notion of “very different rules” applying carried broader overtones of extraordinary permission as well. (“RINO” is a term of abuse used by highly partisan Republicans against more moderate colleagues they deem to be “Republicans in Name Only.”)


Trump insinuated that Republican officials, including Pence, would endanger themselves by accepting Biden’s win.


“I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so, because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. … And I actually — I just spoke to Mike. I said: ‘Mike, that doesn’t take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing. That takes courage.’”


“I also want to thank our 13 most courageous members of the U.S. Senate, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Ron Johnson, Senator Josh Hawley. … Senators have stepped up. We want to thank them. I actually think, though, it takes, again, more courage not to step up, and I think a lot of those people are going to find that out. And you better start looking at your leadership, because your leadership has led you down the tubes.”


Mr. Trump twice told the crowd that Republicans who did not go along with his effort to overturn the election — Mr. Pence as well as senators like Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader, who did not join in the performative objections led by Mr. Hawley and Mr. Cruz — were actually the ones being courageous. In context, the president’s implication is that they were putting themselves at risk because it would be safer to go along with what he wanted. During the ensuing riot, the mob chanted “Hang Mike Pence.”


Trump suggested that he wanted his supporters to stop the certification of Biden’s electoral win, not just protest it.


“We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. …


“You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. …

“We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”


Two months after he lost the election, Mr. Trump repeatedly told his followers that they could still stop Mr. Biden from becoming president if they “fight like hell,” a formulation that suggested they act and change things, not merely raise their voices in protest.


As he dispatched his supporters into what became deadly chaos, Trump falsely told them that he would come, too.


“Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you. … We are going to the Capitol, and we are going to try and give — the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote, but we are going to try — give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re try — going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”


As he sicced his supporters on Congress, Mr. Trump assured them that he would personally accompany them to the Capitol. In fact, as several of his followers and police officers were being injured or dying in the ensuing chaos, the president was watching the violence play out on television from the safety of the White House.

Source: Incitement to Riot? What Trump Told Supporters Before Mob Stormed Capitol
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
All the event speakers that day incited the entire crowd. Talking in dog whistles and 'code.'
And far-right media has the gall to say no one incited anything. So corrupt.
They allowed themselves to be suckered back in 2016, so this is just another time when many are allowing themselves to be suckered again.

Most of the people I know personally who voted for Trump back in 2016 have admitted that the election of Trump was a mistake, but there's some who still cannot bring themselves to admit that Trump has acted in ways that simply are unacceptable in a democracy and within basic Judeo-Christian and humanitarian teachings.

But then a great many people simply cannot publicly admit they made a mistake. To me, there's strength in admitting when we make a mistake, although I don't have to do that because I never make any. :rolleyes:
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Please stop altering reality and making lame excuses for the President inciting an insurrection. Here’s the timeline:

11 a.m.
Trump’s “Save America Rally” begins first with the president's sons Eric and Donald Trump Jr., then his lawyer, Rudy Guiliani. Trump starts speaking shortly before noon at about 11:50 a.m. and says, “And after this, we're going to walk down there, and I'll be there with you, we're going to walk down ... to the Capitol and we are going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women.” Trump speaks for more than an hour. At the conclusion, thousands walk to the Capitol.

1 p.m.
Lawmakers gather for a joint session in the House of Representatives chamber to count Electoral College votes.

1:10 p.m.
Rioters begin grappling with police on the Capitol steps.

... There was plenty of time for people to hear Trump’s incitement and then go storm the Capitol. And in fact we have video of Ashley Babbit live-streaming after the rally walking towards the Capitol. And we have video of her being shot, just steps from lawmakers, by what may have been Mike Pence’s Secret Service while trying to breach a barricaded door inside the Capitol.

Here’s Ashli Babbitt live-streaming as she and a large crowd walk from the rally to the Capitol after listening to Trump’s speech:
Timeline of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol - Wikipedia

And here she is tragically being shot dead while storming the Capitol:

Aren’t you ashamed of altering reality to minimize this tragedy?

Source: Timeline: How a Trump mob stormed the US Capitol, forcing Washington into lockdown

I do not appreciate your accusations of dishonesty in this regard. I linked the chronology and clarified the relevant timeline already. Go back and re-read it. Or follow this link:
Timeline of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol - Wikipedia

You are cherry picking what Trump said and leaving out the parts where he incited the mob.
Did you hear or read the entire speech or did you get bits and pieces from OAN?

Here Trump is once again lying about the election being stolen to inflame his followers... Source...Donald Trump Speech "Save America" Rally Transcript January 6 - Rev

All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they’re doing and stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.
Note also, he, as always, denigrated the press. That's something that wannabe dictators do - denigrate or eliminate the opposition press.

We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.
We will not let them silence your voices. We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen.
I hope so because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.
All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to recertify, and we become president
...
I just spoke to Mike. I said, “Mike, that doesn’t take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing. That takes courage,” and then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot, and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen.
Then a really big lie...
Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you.
He didn't walk to congress with them. After the speech, he just went home. Weak and spineless. Castro led the march on Havana, Trump went home to watch others fight for him.

...you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

Actually I simply quoted from a video posted by on this forum supposedly shows how Trump incited the insurrection:
Must-see new video shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought
They cherry picked what Trump said and I picked from what they said Trump said.
The video I quoted from was from MSNBC that "shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought".

Yes he played the reluctant part of someone who swore an oath to defend our Constitution and told the insurrectionists to “go home” HOURS after his own Vice President was in mortal danger and escorted out. He also told the criminals “we love you, you’re very special”. He didn’t use the “when the looting starts the shooting starts” rhetoric this time and he resisted sending in the National Guard.

During the attack, before Mike Pence was safe, he tweeted: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!” ... then rioters began shouting “Where’s Mike Pence?” And “Hang Mike Pence!”

In fact it might have been Mike Pence’s Secret Service who shot and killed Ashli Babbit while clearing a path for him as the Capitol was mobbed.

If this was a test Trump gets 50% credit for encouraging peaceful protest and 50% wrong for incitement. Why are you giving him credit for the 50% he got right? That’s still an “F”. He failed his oath and you trying to minimize it is appalling, and sad.
There were two tweets before the go home tweet.
"Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"​

"I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!"​
The "Go Home" tweet resulted in a twitter suspension.

Source?

Trump said "go home" long after the riots started".

He got banned from Twitter because, as even spineless sheeple Lindsey Graham said, "enough is enough". Five years of lying and inflaming and inciting.

The source is Trump's twitter account (unless they've deleted him altogether)... The tweets are also mentioned in the timeline I linked.

I looked through your link and could not find this. Where are you getting this from?
Hmm. interesting... that's what I get for using wikipedia... they've changed their article.
Timeline of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol - Wikipedia
to say
"1:03 p.m., rioter have overrun three additional layers of barricades and have forced police officers to the base of the west Capitol steps."​
So a three minute change.


Parler's server companies have also shut him down - and all of his followers.


I don't know much about parler, but apparently...
Parler jumps to No. 1 on App Store after Facebook and Twitter ban Trump
It would be interesting news if Parler actually did shut Trump and his followers down (source?)! My understanding is that Google Play removed the Parler app from their listings.

Just to add, I skim-read all of Trump's speech. There was about fifty minutes of him just rambling somewhat incoherently and repeating all the false claims about the election fraud. Claims that have been repeatedly found to be baseless.

He speaks for a long time. I don't blame you for skimming.

They listen to Trump. That's what they do. He is their Dear Leader. And Dear Leader has been telling them for months, if not years that the election was rigged against him by evil people.

Trump told the rioters that he loved them and that they are special. Oh, and go home, as almost an afterthought. That's after he went on and on about how the election was stolen from him/them by evil people. And he only did that after being pressured to do so for hours. There is even word that he regrets making that particular speech (not the other ones though, oddly enough).


And that's a day after Trump incited them to "be strong" and told them he'd march with them to the Capitol building, which of course he didn't. Rudy Giuliani, meantime, called for a "trial by combat."

They weren't at his rally despite Trump being their "Dear Leader".

I think that at the end of the day, it's fair to say that Trump has always said the election was stolen.
It's also fair to say that stolen elections (and the resulting disenfranchised voters) are the sort of thing that can cause violence, riots, even outright civil war. But saying what you believe is simply not enough to validate a charge of incitement. So it will interesting to see what happens with those politicians calling for impeachment.
Banning Trump from twitter (and facebook)? That may be the direct cause of significant unrest. It is not good if people think their only means of expression is violence and not speech.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Actually I simply quoted from a video posted by on this forum supposedly shows how Trump incited the insurrection:
Must-see new video shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought
They cherry picked what Trump said and I picked from what they said Trump said.

And then, apparently, you cherry-picked from the cherry-picked.

I don't know much about parler, but apparently...
Parler jumps to No. 1 on App Store after Facebook and Twitter ban Trump
It would be interesting news if Parler actually did shut Trump and his followers down (source?)! My understanding is that Google Play removed the Parler app from their listings.

Parler is gone. Amazon owns the servers Parler was using. Amazon cut them off.

I think that at the end of the day, it's fair to say that Trump has always said the election was stolen.
Trump made that argument preemptively in 2016, just in case.
Trump made that argument preemptively in 2020, just in case.


It's also fair to say that stolen elections (and the resulting disenfranchised voters) are the sort of thing that can cause violence, riots, even outright civil war.

That is not the case with the 2020 USA election. It was not stolen.

If you make a police report that your car was stolen, you better have evidence that your car was stolen. If you can't show that your car was stolen, you could be charged with filing a false report.

Trump has no evidence that the election was stolen. If he chooses to ignore all the findings of the investigations and the court cases and then goes on to make the same false claims to inflame a crowd, he needs to be severely punished.


But saying what you believe is simply not enough to validate a charge of incitement. So it will interesting to see what happens with those politicians calling for impeachment.

Repeatedly asserting what you know to be false in order to rile up a crowd is impeachable if that crowd then followed your exhortations to commit terrorist acts.

Encouraging your followers like Guiliani, Powell, Cruz, Graham, and Kremer to spread the same lies and rile up your followers falls into the same category.

How Trump’s pied pipers rallied a faithful mob to the Capitol
About two hours after Kremer’s speech, Trump took the same rally stage and exhorted this volatile mix of supporters repeatedly to “fight” - using the word more than 20 times - and “not take it any longer.” He ridiculed “weak” and “pathetic” Republicans and told the crowd they must “be strong” before dispatching the “patriots” on a march to the Capitol.​
 
I do not appreciate your accusations of dishonesty in this regard. I linked the chronology and clarified the relevant timeline already. Go back and re-read it. Or follow this link:
Timeline of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol - Wikipedia
Wiki says Trump began speaking at 12pm, rioters began breaching temporary fencing outside the Capitol at 12:50pm. The fighting with police continued to escalate until they finally got into the building at 2:10pm.

Given there were 30,000 people, it is conceivable some left the rally earlier and some left later. Some may have skipped the rally entirely and gone straight to the Capitol. But there was also plenty of time for a mass of people to listen to Trump’s speech and then go initiate or join existing rioting, which clearly took place.

Ashli Babbit live streamed herself talking about Trump’s speech while walking to the Capitol. And we have video of her attempting to breach barricades inside the Capitol before being shot.

She heard Trump’s speech alright. And she participated in the riot - in fact she became the tip of the spear.

There were two tweets before the go home tweet.
"Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"
"I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!"The "Go Home" tweet resulted in a twitter suspension.
This is like deploying the airbags after impact. He told them to “fight like hell” then he told them to be peaceful. He told them go to the Capitol because we “cannot let this happen” then he told them to “go home”. He told them he’d march with them, instead he went to a safe location and watched TV. He told them “we love you” then he called them criminals.

It’s hard to recall a violent mob after the fact, just as it’s hard to put toothpaste back in the tube.

He said the right thing 50% of the time. That’s still an “F”.
 
Last edited:

ecco

Veteran Member
There were two tweets before the go home tweet.
"Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"


In context...with my red emphasis
“I know your pain. I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us,” Trump said. “But you have to go home now. We have to have peace.”

Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 6, 2021

Since Trump's Twitter account has been deleted, there is no timestamp.

Even as he was telling people to go home, he repeated the lie that inflamed them to attack the Capitol.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
And then, apparently, you cherry-picked from the cherry-picked.

If I want to cherry-pick... it's easy. Trump at his rally said to protest peaceably. It's harder to find anything in his speech that qualifies as incitement, because even saying "fight" in this context does not indicate harm to other people or to break into the capitol building.

Parler is gone. Amazon owns the servers Parler was using. Amazon cut them off.

Ah. Okay. Amazon. It looks like the CEO of Parler says they will be fine. So I imagine they simply acquire their own servers and carry on. Twitter, Facebook, Google, and Amazon... I don't know why they would shoot themselves in the foot like this, but they are very powerful, so maybe they simply are doing what they want because they are big Tech Corporations.

That is not the case with the 2020 USA election. It was not stolen.

If you make a police report that your car was stolen, you better have evidence that your car was stolen. If you can't show that your car was stolen, you could be charged with filing a false report.

Trump has no evidence that the election was stolen. If he chooses to ignore all the findings of the investigations and the court cases and then goes on to make the same false claims to inflame a crowd, he needs to be severely punished.

It seems that Trump still thinks it was stolen and that they are many who still agree with him. Anyone who censures people because of an opinion is unworthy to claim an opinion of his own.

Repeatedly asserting what you know to be false in order to rile up a crowd is impeachable if that crowd then followed your exhortations to commit terrorist acts.

Encouraging your followers like Guiliani, Powell, Cruz, Graham, and Kremer to spread the same lies and rile up your followers falls into the same category.

How Trump’s pied pipers rallied a faithful mob to the Capitol
About two hours after Kremer’s speech, Trump took the same rally stage and exhorted this volatile mix of supporters repeatedly to “fight” - using the word more than 20 times - and “not take it any longer.” He ridiculed “weak” and “pathetic” Republicans and told the crowd they must “be strong” before dispatching the “patriots” on a march to the Capitol.

I think the evidence suggests that Trump does not "know to be false" the claims he made about the election. Rather, it suggests to me that Trump believes the election was stolen. Is there any thing in the article you linked that qualifies as incitement?

Wiki says Trump began speaking at 12pm, rioters began breaching temporary fencing outside the Capitol at 12:50pm. The fighting with police continued to escalate until they finally got into the building at 2:10pm.

Given there were 30,000 people, it is conceivable some left the rally earlier and some left later. Some may have skipped the rally entirely and gone straight to the Capitol. But there was also plenty of time for a mass of people to listen to Trump’s speech and then go initiate or join existing rioting, which clearly took place.

Ashli Babbit live streamed herself talking about Trump’s speech while walking to the Capitol. And we have video of her attempting to breach barricades inside the Capitol before being shot.

She heard Trump’s speech alright. And she participated in the riot - in fact she became the tip of the spear.

Actual fair point - people can leave the rally early. Why though? Why not stay and listen to your "Dear Leader"?

And the situation with Ashli Babbit bears looking into.
'She was deep into it': Ashli Babbitt, killed in Capitol riot, was devoted conspiracy theorist
"For weeks before she joined the mob in Washington, Babbitt had been retweeting false claims from Trump himself, as well as the pro-Trump lawyers Lin Wood and Sidney Powell, alleging massive voter fraud and asserting that Trump had won the 2020 election.

Many of Babbitt’s tweets, according to extremism experts, also marked her as a believer in QAnon, a conspiracy theory that claims Donald Trump has been trying to save the world from a cabal of satanic pedophiles, including Democratic politicians like Biden and Hollywood celebrities, and that he will soon bring his enemies to justice."​

This is like deploying the airbags after impact. He told them to “fight like hell” then he told them to be peaceful. He told them go to the Capitol because we “cannot let this happen” then he told them to “go home”. He told them he’d march with them, instead he went to a safe location and watched TV. He told them “we love you” then he called them criminals.

It’s hard to recall a violent mob after the fact, just as it’s hard to put toothpaste back in the tube.

He said the right thing 50% of the time. That’s still an “F”.

So... you're agreeing that he tweeted for peace, non-violence, and respect for law enforcement? Or you are disagreeing?

In context...with my red emphasis
“I know your pain. I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us,” Trump said. “But you have to go home now. We have to have peace.”

Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 6, 2021

Since Trump's Twitter account has been deleted, there is no timestamp.

Even as he was telling people to go home, he repeated the lie that inflamed them to attack the Capitol.

The opposite of go home with love is stay with hate. One of these is the right thing to say. That he started with the part about the stolen election was both true from his point of view and good persuasion IF the stolen election was the primary motivation of the instigators. And if you really respected what Trump had to say, if he was your "Dear Leader", then why wouldn't you take those remarks to heart and go home? And if so, then the only thing that would make you more angry and want to riot more would be a an account suspension from twitter of the President of the United States. What a mind-bogglingly bad action to take in response to that tweet.

I think that something that could be considered incitement is Lin Wood's tweet where he suggested Vice President Pence should be put in front of a firing squad.
Trump's allies are turning on Lin Wood after he tweeted about executing Mike Pence and arresting Mitch McConnell
We know some of the rioters were chanting to hang Pence during their raid of the capitol and that Ashli Babbit bought into the things Lin Wood said as well as things Qanon claimed.

I was shocked by what Lin Wood said. And I would qualify his remark about Pence as incitement. It did not seem to me that Lin Wood was speaking figuratively or joking.
I think, at this point, it should be more than clear that Qanon is some sort of misinformation effort.

It interests me that people seriously think Trump should be impeached for inciting a riot. It seems to me to be more hunting for an excuse. The FBI is investigating, so an even clearer picture of the events of Jan 6 should emerge.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
It interests me that people seriously think Trump should be impeached for inciting a riot. It seems to me to be more hunting for an excuse.
And what a mighty short hunt that was.
To find evidence that Trump incited the riot.
that Trump egged it on.

Now since a buttload (real measurement) of said evidence has already been presented in this very thread, you asking for more evidence will merely confirm you just flat out refuse to see it.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Here is the definition of seditious conspiracy according to US law: 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
By at least two measures, sedition did indeed occur yesterday.
Yes. I think it is undeniable that, under the law, sedition did take place last Wednesday. What is even worse, after it started, President Trump seemed to be encouraging and justifying it, which led to Twitter being forced to suspend his account.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
If I want to cherry-pick... it's easy. Trump at his rally said to protest peaceably. It's harder to find anything in his speech that qualifies as incitement, because even saying "fight" in this context does not indicate harm to other people or to break into the capitol building.
He made his comments after other speakers inflamed his crowd with continued lies about the election being stolen. He made his comments after personally inflaming the crowd with continued lies about the election being stolen. So, how to stop the steal? March on Congress and prevent the certification.


ETA: In addition to all his other lies, he said he would go with them.

"Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy," he said. "And after this, we're going to walk down — and I'll be there with you — we're going to walk down ... to the Capitol and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women."
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Ah. Okay. Amazon. It looks like the CEO of Parler says they will be fine. So I imagine they simply acquire their own servers and carry on. Twitter, Facebook, Google, and Amazon... I don't know why they would shoot themselves in the foot like this, but they are very powerful, so maybe they simply are doing what they want because they are big Tech Corporations.

Why do you think they shot themselves in the foot? Do you really think they can cover some loss of revenue?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It seems that Trump still thinks it was stolen and that they are many who still agree with him. Anyone who censures people because of an opinion is unworthy to claim an opinion of his own.


But it's not just an opinion. Trump has been fanning the flames of election fraud since before the 2016 elections. It was not an opinion, it was a strategy to provide a basis for rebutting his loss.
In 2016 he won and bragged about how smart he was to play the electoral college angel.
In 2020 he lost and immediately started playing the fraud card. By January 6th, he had been screaming about fraud for over a month. Of course, he is not alone. Equally culpable are people like Cruz, Graham, Powell, Giuliani, and Jr.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The opposite of go home with love is stay with hate. One of these is the right thing to say. That he started with the part about the stolen election was both true from his point of view and good persuasion IF the stolen election was the primary motivation of the instigators. And if you really respected what Trump had to say, if he was your "Dear Leader", then why wouldn't you take those remarks to heart and go home?
What you quoted above was a tweet that he issued after the breach of the Capitol had already occurred. You are so invested in support of this turd, that you won't even see the implied wink.

In person, face to face, our leader extolled us to March on the Capitol and disrupt the counting of the fraudulent votes he has repeatedly told us about. We know we cannot count on traitor Pence to do the right thing.

We understand he needs to say "go home" to try to appease the Dems.

We will disrupt the counting of the fraudulent votes like he needs us to do.​
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Here is the definition of seditious conspiracy according to US law: 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
By at least two measures, sedition did indeed occur yesterday.
Its not a word that I use everyday, so I don't know for sure. They were clearly trespassing. Some were damaging property. Some were looting. Some were only protesting. Many were conspiring to do something such as either delay Congress, change its mind, create an excuse for a coup or something like that. Its case by case. I suspect 'Conspiracy' is the worst charge most will face not 'Sedition'.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
It seems that Trump still thinks it was stolen and that they are many who still agree with him. Anyone who censures people because of an opinion is unworthy to claim an opinion of his own.
Okay then. It is my opinion that you are the Zodiac killer.

I'm going to go to the police with my opinion.

And if the police dismiss my opinion because there is no evidence linking you with the Zodiac killer's crimes, then I will circulate my opinion online.

And then I will find a bunch of people willing to accept my opinion and agree with it, and I will tell them to (peacefully) march on your house, repeating all of my opinions.
 
Actual fair point - people can leave the rally early. Why though? Why not stay and listen to your "Dear Leader"?
Most of them did stay and listen. In a crowd of 30,000 I would expect many people to show up late or leave early - that’s the nature of large crowds.

Some may have listened to the first part of Trump’s speech but then headed to the Capitol so they could arrive before the joint session of Congress started. Disrupting that session was the goal. Trump had already said weeks earlier “Will be wild!” and other speakers at the Trump rally, before Trump spoke, had delivered consistent messages that Congress needs to “watch out” and it will be “trial by combat”. They assumed the rest of the MAGA faithful would catch up and help them finish what they began - and they were right.

And the situation with Ashli Babbit bears looking into.
'She was deep into it': Ashli Babbitt, killed in Capitol riot, was devoted conspiracy theorist
"For weeks before she joined the mob in Washington, Babbitt had been retweeting false claims from Trump himself, as well as the pro-Trump lawyers Lin Wood and Sidney Powell, alleging massive voter fraud and asserting that Trump had won the 2020 election.

Many of Babbitt’s tweets, according to extremism experts, also marked her as a believer in QAnon, a conspiracy theory that claims Donald Trump has been trying to save the world from a cabal of satanic pedophiles, including Democratic politicians like Biden and Hollywood celebrities, and that he will soon bring his enemies to justice."
Yes Ashli Babbit was a QAnon nut. Trump is their idol. Even more reason he should be giving them a clear message of peace instead of a inciting violence. Are you suggesting the President is not responsible for his own words if crazy people are listening? It’s the opposite, my friend. This is why the words of the President matter.

So... you're agreeing that he tweeted for peace, non-violence, and respect for law enforcement? Or you are disagreeing?
Agree that he said that 10% of the time while inciting a mob the other 90% of the time. That’s still an “F” right? Are we grading this on a curve? He’s the President, he should be held to a higher standard than anyone when talking to his own supporters and sending them hurtling towards a joint session of Congress that he says we “cannot let happen ... or we won’t have a country anymore”.

Gee, how do I prevent Mike Pence from declaring Biden the winner “peacefully”? Trump didn’t specify, but he dropped sinister hints, as per his custom. The mob got the hint.
 
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