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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Skywalker said:
If someone commits a crime, asking for forgiveness isn't enough. A judge could pardon someone, however, if a lawyer took their place. That is why Jesus died for our sins.
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You are treating God like he is a criminal judge. God is our father. He wants reconciliation with his children.

Lawyers can NEVER take the place of the criminal. YOu are being absurd. Scripture says that each man pays for his own sins.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
You are treating God like he is a criminal judge. God is our father. He wants reconciliation with his children.

Lawyers can NEVER take the place of the criminal. YOu are being absurd. Scripture says that each man pays for his own sins.
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God is our father if we accept him as our Savior. Then our sins are covered. God wants reconciliation with us. That's why God the Son stepped down from his glory to live among us and die for our sins.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
You are treating God like he is a criminal judge. God is our father. He wants reconciliation with his children.

Lawyers can NEVER take the place of the criminal. YOu are being absurd. Scripture says that each man pays for his own sins.
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The Messiah was the mediator by being the bridge between God and humanity. Our iniquities separate us from God. Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 18:19-30 - New King James Version

Turn and Live
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
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IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Skywalker said:
God is our father if we accept him as our Savior. Then our sins are covered. God wants reconciliation with us. That's why God the Son stepped down from his glory to live among us and die for our sins.
Click to expand...
God is my Savior. I need no other. Not Jesus. Not anyone else.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
God is my Savior. I need no other. Not Jesus. Not anyone else.
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How could God be our Savior without dying for our sins? A judge who lets a criminal go would not be a just judge.

Jews sin and fall short like everyone else. Either Yeshua is the Savior of Israel or he's the Savior of no one.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
You are treating God like he is a criminal judge. God is our father. He wants reconciliation with his children.

Lawyers can NEVER take the place of the criminal. YOu are being absurd. Scripture says that each man pays for his own sins.
Click to expand...

If a judge let a criminal go free, they would not be a just judge. But if a lawyer agreed to take their place, they could go free.

Each person pays for their own crimes, but if a lawyer agreed to take their place, the lawyer would bear their crimes.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Not fulfilling the messianic prophecies means one is not the messiah.
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John the Baptist prepared the way of the Lord in the wilderness. The meaning of life is not in religious rituals and following laws, but in having a relationship with God and putting God first and making him a part of your life. John the Baptist preached that. The Top 40 Messianic Prophecies

27) The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Hebrew Scriptures reference: Continue reading commentary ›
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ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
You are treating God like he is a criminal judge. God is our father. He wants reconciliation with his children.

Lawyers can NEVER take the place of the criminal. YOu are being absurd. Scripture says that each man pays for his own sins.
Click to expand...
A good father communicates directly with every one of his children. A good father is accountable to his children. The goal of a good father is autonomy from himself and self determination for his children.

IMHO
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
I was quoting a Bible teacher to explain my beliefs in a more clear way. That's different from defending a certain interpretation over another just because it's part of tradition.
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Ah, but it is part of tradition because bible teachers explain it as such. So if you can rely on your bible teacher and it isn't an appeal to tradition, then I can rely on my bible teachers and it isn't an appeal to tradition. Or, both are appeals to tradition, and you don't understand how an appeal is not always a fallacy.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
Servant of the Lord is broad. It can refer to the nation as a whole, or the righteous remnant. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42 refers to the Messiah. Even some Jews believe that.


Rabbis believe the suffering servant is the Messiah but they belief he's not a messiah who is a savior, a messiah who in heaven thinks about our sins.
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Servant is specific. It refers to the named referent. Your claim is now that it refers to something unnamed and not to what it names, and so you say it is "broad" and can refer to something else, regardless of what it says. If that is your belief -- that the text is wrong, then that's fine. That's your tradition.

As to whether "rabbis" believe something about the suffering servant, you are out of your league on this one. Just ask a rabbi. I'm right here.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Ah, but it is part of tradition because bible teachers explain it as such. So if you can rely on your bible teacher and it isn't an appeal to tradition, then I can rely on my bible teachers and it isn't an appeal to tradition. Or, both are appeals to tradition, and you don't understand how an appeal is not always a fallacy.
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Whether the details of what we say agrees with the Bible is what determines whether I agree with it not whether the Bible teacher is Jewish or Gentile. The Bible is not open to private interpretation from either group. It's not an appeal to tradition to say that Martin Luther was a fallible human being or centuries of Christian history were not anti semetic.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
Whether the details of what we say agrees with the Bible is what determines whether I agree with it not whether the Bible teacher is Jewish or Gentile. The Bible is not open to private interpretation from either group. It's not an appeal to tradition to say that Martin Luther was a fallible human being or centuries of Christian history were not anti semetic.
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Great -- and what I say agrees with what the bible says, for example, when it specifically names the servant. Deciding that the servant refers to Jesus is a "private interpretation" which you have just disallowed. Thanks!
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Great -- and what I say agrees with what the bible says, for example, when it specifically names the servant. Deciding that the servant refers to Jesus is a "private interpretation" which you have just disallowed. Thanks!
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Why do some rabbis believe that verse is about the Messiah crying in heaven for our sins? Brown mentioned it in the video. I believe they think that the suffering servant is the Messiah but they don't want to admit that the Messiah is a Savior.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
Why do some rabbis believe that verse is about the Messiah crying in heaven for our sins? Brown mentioned it in the video. I believe they think that the suffering servant is the Messiah but they don't want to admit that the Messiah is a Savior.
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Show me his source. And what you believe they think has no bearing on what they actually think.

There are discussions in rabbinic texts about the soul of the messiah (and other souls and also angels) being sad for the suffering of the people. This has nothing to do with being a savior.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Show me his source. And what you believe they think has no bearing on what they actually think.

There are discussions in rabbinic texts about the soul of the messiah (and other souls and also angels) being sad for the suffering of the people. This has nothing to do with being a savior.
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It's in the video I posted about the suffering servant.

Don't those texts imply that the Messiah is the suffering servant mentioned in the book of Isaiah and not the nation of Israel?
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
It's in the video I posted about the suffering servant.

Don't those texts imply that the Messiah is the suffering servant mentioned in the book of Isaiah and not the nation of Israel?
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No, give me the source for his claim. If it is in there, just tell me where to look up the original text.
You are now asking me about what things "imply" instead of relying on what the text says? That sounds like more "private interpretation."
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
No, give me the source for his claim. If it is in there, just tell me where to look up the original text.
You are now asking me about what things "imply" instead of relying on what the text says? That sounds like more "private interpretation."
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This is an example of appeal to tradition. The New and Old Testament teaches the second coming of the Messiah. Judaism teaches that either there will be two Messiahs, or the Messiah will fulfill all the prophecies in one coming. That sounds more like the beliefs of tradition than the one belief of the Bible. Did Jesus Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament? | Jewish Voice



A significant Messianic prophecy that is often overlooked by those still waiting for the Messiah is Daniel 9:24-27. This Old Testament prophecy says that Messiah, the Anointed One, will be “cut off,” or killed, before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, which happened in 70 A.D. Clearly, Yeshua’s death fits as fulfilling this prophecy, and no Messiah yet to come could. Bible prophecy contains portraits of both a suffering Messiah and a victorious Messiah. The suffering servant is pictured as a lamb, wounded, and cut off, but not for Himself. The triumphant Messiah comes to establish His rule of peace and righteousness over the earth.

These two seemingly contradictory prophetic descriptions are difficult to understand for Jewish People. To reconcile these two very different portrayals of the Messiah, there grew a belief among the rabbis that they were waiting for two Messiahs. One they called Mashiach ben David, and He would be the Son of King David who would rule and reign. The other they called Mashiach ben Joseph, the Son of Joseph. This Messiah ben Joseph would suffer and be rejected by his own like Joseph was rejected by his brothers. At the time of Yeshua’s coming, Israel longed for the conquering Messiah. Because of Rome’s oppression and their expectation that God would send the Deliverer, they were looking for Messiah ben David.

The truth is, it is not two Messiahs, it is one Messiah coming twice—first as the Lamb of God, the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and then as the reigning King Messiah when Yeshua returns. Yeshua’s first coming fulfilled the prophecies of the suffering servant. With Yeshua’s Second Coming, we will see the fulfillment of the victorious, reigning Messiah of Isaiah 11:1-9!
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