Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

InvestigateTruth said:

A Manifestation of God, or the eternal Truth, is like rise of the Sun. There is only one Sun. Not two or three or more Suns.
But for the Sun to rise tomorrow, the sun must set or leave today. Until the spirit of Truth does not leave today, it cannot come tomorrow. It is the same Spirit:

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InvestigateTruth said:

It is like same Sun appear in many mirrors. So, although the Mirrors are different from each other, yet they reflect the same image. Likewise God who is like the sun, is manifested in Many mirrors. Baha'u'llah said:

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the light that can never fade. Even as He hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition: “I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself.”
Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan.

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Two not so good analogies. The Sun is the exact same physical Sun returning. And then the mirrors? Some of the people that Baha'is say were manifestations, yes, I've said this before and it doesn't bother Baha'is, but... some of these guys were not "perfectly" polished mirrors. They had flaws. Then, even Baha'is question how true and accurate and historical the Bible stories of their lives was... Like Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses. Which on was a treasury of divine knowledge? Which one transmitted an infinite grace? And again, like I've said before, even in Judaism these people are not made into what Baha'is call "manifestations". Neither were they made "manifestations" in Christianity. Plus, in Judaism and Christianity Buddha, Krishna and Zoroaster and their religions are important or mentioned as being part of God's progression of manifestations. God withheld this information until Baha'u'llah? It might have helped to know this before one people and their religion moved in and killed people that believed in a different religion.

Trailblazer said:

I guess you have to decide whether to believe fictional stories men wrote or whether to believe Paul, who makes logical sense.

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Isn't it a matter of deciding whether to believe the whole Bible or to Cherry Pick as the thread title suggests of Baha'i. According to the information, spiritual body does not mean a body composed entirely of spirit. Reject that and then reject the resurrection stories of Jesus also. You end up rejecting Paul and the stories of the resurrection because they are consistent with each other.
Our body puts on immortality and incorruptibility

Brian2 said:

Isn't it a matter of deciding whether to believe the whole Bible or to Cherry Pick as the thread title suggests of Baha'i. According to the information, spiritual body does not mean a body composed entirely of spirit. Reject that and then reject the resurrection stories of Jesus also. You end up rejecting Paul and the stories of the resurrection because they are consistent with each other.
Our body puts on immortality and incorruptibility

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As I have been telling you for years, it is ALL a matter of how you interpret the Bible, and that is why not only Baha'i interpretations differ from Christian interpretations, Christian interpretations differ from other Christian interpretations.

No physical body puts on immortality and incorruptibility because a physical body is by definition corruptible.
Only a spiritual body can puts on immortality and incorruptibility.

No body is composed of spirit; a body is either a physical body or a spiritual body.
A physical body is composed of physical elements; a spiritual body is composed of spiritual elements:

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

There is no body that is half physical and half spiritual. That belief is contradicted by what Paul said:
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1st Corinthians 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead. If it did, it was a physical body that rose, not a "glorified" physical body, because there is nothing in the Bible about such a body.
You cannot use the verse above (43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power to justify saying that Jesus has a glorified physical body because that is not what the Bible says (as you always like to tell me. )

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Correct and as such the fulfillment becomes the answer.

We have the choice to accept, to be born again, or to reject that fulfillment.

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I just offer that many see, and many more will see, that Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), is the language of the Messengers.

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Then lets take a close look at "the fountain of living waters" that Baha'u'llah is leading to.

For this biblical prophecy:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:17



Baha'u'llah says:

"Glory rest upon you and upon those who have attained unto that living fountain which floweth forth from My wondrous Pen.”
28 December 1999 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

"From out the fountain of Our heart hath God’s celestial river flowed"
The Call of the Divine Beloved | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Every discerning man of wisdom is well acquainted with that which We have mentioned, but not those who have strayed far from the living fountain of fairmindedness and are roving distraught in the wilderness of ignorance and blind fanaticism.
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Obstruct not the luminous spring of thy soul with the thorns and brambles of vain and inordinate affections, and impede not the flow of the living waters that stream from the fountain of thine heart.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Beware lest ye be hindered by the veils of glory from partaking of the crystal waters of this living Fountain. Seize ye the chalice of salvation at this dawntide in the name of Him Who causeth the day to break, and drink your fill in praise of Him Who is the All-Glorious, the Incomparable.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)





Look at the verse closely:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jeremiah 9:1

And let them make haste, and take up a wailing for us, that our eyes may run down with tears, and our eyelids gush out with waters. Jeremiah 9:18




Thou feedest them with the bread of tears; and givest them tears to drink in great measure. Psalm 80:5


Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. James 3:12


Have you tasted tears?

Salty?


Baha'u'llah leads to the crystal waters from the fountain of the heart.

He doesn't lead to the salt water fountain of the eyes.

You have the choice to accept or reject.

Trailblazer said:

As I have been telling you for years, it is ALL a matter of how you interpret the Bible, and that is why not only Baha'i interpretations differ from Christian interpretations, Christian interpretations differ from other Christian interpretations.

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It is a matter of interpretation and interpretation should follow the meaning of the Greek words in the scriptures. In this case, the word translated "spiritual" which could also be translated "supernatural".

Trailblazer said:

No physical body puts on immortality and incorruptibility because a physical body is by definition corruptible.
Only a spiritual body can puts on immortality and incorruptibility.

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It is because a physical body is corruptible and not immortal that it needs to put on incorruptibility and immortality.
A spirit maybe does not need to put those things on.

Trailblazer said:

No body is composed of spirit; a body is either a physical body or a spiritual body.
A physical body is composed of physical elements; a spiritual body is composed of spiritual elements:

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Maybe this is the reason that our physical bodies are said to be changed, transformed into our resurrection body.

Trailblazer said:

There is no body that is half physical and half spiritual. That belief is contradicted by what Paul said:
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

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What you said there shows that you either did not read the link I posted or do not believe what it said about the meaning of "spiritual".
Paul did not contradict himself about this and there are other places in Paul's writings which are clear.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Notice that in the last passage Jesus is bringing the souls of the dead in Christ to be resurrected.

1Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. wthis mortal body must put on immortality

Trailblazer said:

1st Corinthians 15

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Trailblazer said:

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead. If it did, it was a physical body that rose, not a "glorified" physical body, because there is nothing in the Bible about such a body.
You cannot use the verse above (43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power to justify saying that Jesus has a glorified physical body because that is not what the Bible says (as you always like to tell me. )

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I could use verse 43 and precisely because that is what the Bible says.
1Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
The whole passage you quoted (and others of Paul) show that the body we have now will be raised and changed to an updated model.

WonderingWorrier said:

Then lets take a close look at "the fountain of living waters" that Baha'u'llah is leading to.

For this biblical prophecy:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:17



Baha'u'llah says:

"Glory rest upon you and upon those who have attained unto that living fountain which floweth forth from My wondrous Pen.”
28 December 1999 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

"From out the fountain of Our heart hath God’s celestial river flowed"
The Call of the Divine Beloved | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Every discerning man of wisdom is well acquainted with that which We have mentioned, but not those who have strayed far from the living fountain of fairmindedness and are roving distraught in the wilderness of ignorance and blind fanaticism.
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Obstruct not the luminous spring of thy soul with the thorns and brambles of vain and inordinate affections, and impede not the flow of the living waters that stream from the fountain of thine heart.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Beware lest ye be hindered by the veils of glory from partaking of the crystal waters of this living Fountain. Seize ye the chalice of salvation at this dawntide in the name of Him Who causeth the day to break, and drink your fill in praise of Him Who is the All-Glorious, the Incomparable.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)





Look at the verse closely:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jeremiah 9:1

And let them make haste, and take up a wailing for us, that our eyes may run down with tears, and our eyelids gush out with waters. Jeremiah 9:18




Thou feedest them with the bread of tears; and givest them tears to drink in great measure. Psalm 80:5


Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. James 3:12


Have you tasted tears?

Salty?


Baha'u'llah leads to the crystal waters from the fountain of the heart.

He doesn't lead to the salt water fountain of the eyes.

You have the choice to accept or reject.

Click to expand...

Maybe this:


"Noah's flood is but the measure of the tears I have shed, and Abraham's fire an ebullition of My soul. Jacob's grief is but a reflection of My sorrows, and Job's afflictions a fraction of My calamity."

Baha'u'llah

Brian2 said:

Isn't it a matter of deciding whether to believe the whole Bible or to Cherry Pick as the thread title suggests of Baha'i.

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And who doesn't cherry pick the Bible? One verse, Isaiah 7:14 makes Jesus a virgin born son of God. But what about the rest of the verses in chapter 7? Never do Christians mention them as relating to Jesus. So who do they relate to? The child that was born in Isaiah's time and was the "sign" for King Ahaz? But then, verse 14 doesn't apply to that child but to Jesus centuries later?

Trailblazer said:

As I have been telling you for years, it is ALL a matter of how you interpret the Bible, and that is why not only Baha'i interpretations differ from Christian interpretations, Christian interpretations differ from other Christian interpretations.

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Yes, everyone cherry picks to suit their own religious beliefs.

WonderingWorrier said:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:17

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And who is the Lamb and the Lamb that was slain? Baha'is can't say for sure. This should have been an easy one for Baha'u'llah to claim and say, "I am the Lamb" But apparently not. The best some Baha'is have been able to do is say that the Lamb that was slain is The Bab. But are the Lamb and the Lamb that was slain two different people or just one? And in context, I think, both refer to Jesus.

InvestigateTruth said:

"Noah's flood is but the measure of the tears I have shed, and Abraham's fire an ebullition of My soul. Jacob's grief is but a reflection of My sorrows, and Job's afflictions a fraction of My calamity."

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Yet, those stories are not believed to be literal and historically accurate by Baha'is... especially the flood. So why use them when you don't really believe them? Oh yes, I forgot, they are necessary to cherry pick from.

WonderingWorrier said:

Then lets take a close look at "the fountain of living waters" that Baha'u'llah is leading to.

For this biblical prophecy:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:17



Baha'u'llah says:

"Glory rest upon you and upon those who have attained unto that living fountain which floweth forth from My wondrous Pen.”
28 December 1999 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

"From out the fountain of Our heart hath God’s celestial river flowed"
The Call of the Divine Beloved | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Every discerning man of wisdom is well acquainted with that which We have mentioned, but not those who have strayed far from the living fountain of fairmindedness and are roving distraught in the wilderness of ignorance and blind fanaticism.
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Obstruct not the luminous spring of thy soul with the thorns and brambles of vain and inordinate affections, and impede not the flow of the living waters that stream from the fountain of thine heart.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Beware lest ye be hindered by the veils of glory from partaking of the crystal waters of this living Fountain. Seize ye the chalice of salvation at this dawntide in the name of Him Who causeth the day to break, and drink your fill in praise of Him Who is the All-Glorious, the Incomparable.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)





Look at the verse closely:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jeremiah 9:1

And let them make haste, and take up a wailing for us, that our eyes may run down with tears, and our eyelids gush out with waters. Jeremiah 9:18




Thou feedest them with the bread of tears; and givest them tears to drink in great measure. Psalm 80:5


Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. James 3:12


Have you tasted tears?

Salty?


Baha'u'llah leads to the crystal waters from the fountain of the heart.

He doesn't lead to the salt water fountain of the eyes.

You have the choice to accept or reject.

Click to expand...

If we consider a wider vision we must also consider Elijah always comes first. In this age Elijah was the Bab (Gate).

In this Revelation there was Two Messengers the Bab and Baha'u'llah, they are inseparable as both Messages are tied together.

The Lamb in this revelation was the Bab who mankind slaughtered and again the tears flowed, Baha'u'llah showed us how these sacrafices, of the all the Messengers, feed the pure water of the Spirit into the fountain of the heart.

So the Bab, the Gate, the Lamb brought the tears, Baha’u’llah the Glory of God, wiped them away.

Regards Tony

Brian2 said:

It is a matter of interpretation and interpretation should follow the meaning of the Greek words in the scriptures. In this case, the word translated "spiritual" which could also be translated "supernatural".

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But that would not change what I said. The verses would still mean the same thing.

Brian2 said:

It is because a physical body is corruptible and not immortal that it needs to put on incorruptibility and immortality.
A spirit maybe does not need to put those things on.

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A physical body is corruptible because it is subject to decomposition, and it cannot be changed into a physical body that will not decompose.

I did not mean that a spirit would put those things on. I meant that only a spiritual body can BE immortal and incorruptible because it is made of spiritual elements that can never die. A physical body cannot be immortal and incorruptible because physical elements die.

Brian2 said:

Maybe this is the reason that our physical bodies are said to be changed, transformed into our resurrection body.

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Our physical bodies are changed, but after they are changed, they are no longer physical.

What Paul wrote is right on the money. I picked the most pertinent verses from the chapter because that helps to see it clearer. Our dying bodies will be transformed into bodies that will never die. Our transformed bodies will be spiritual bodies. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

Brian2 said:

What you said there shows that you either did not read the link I posted or do not believe what it said about the meaning of "spiritual".
Paul did not contradict himself about this and there are other places in Paul's writings which are clear.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

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Those verses in Romans do not refer to what will happen after our physical body dies. The redemption of our bodies does not mean that physical bodies will be made into glorified bodies that are both physical and spiritual. Paul clearly says “There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” and that means they are not the same kind of bodies.

Redemption means the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil, so that verse means that those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit (Jesus) will be redeemed; they will be saved from sin, error, or evil.

Brian2 said:

1Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Notice that in the last passage Jesus is bringing the souls of the dead in Christ to be resurrected.

1Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. wthis mortal body must put on immortality.

Click to expand...

True, those who were spiritually dead will be resurrected spiritually, but 1Thess 4 is about what will happen when Christ returns, it is not about what will happen when we die. You cannot jump from 1Thess 4 to 1Cor 15 because that are about different things.

In 1Thess 4 Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first and that means those who had turned away from Christ (thus were spiritually dead) will be the first to become spiritually alive. Paul says that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him, and that means those who were spiritually asleep in Jesus will be brought to Jesus. This makes perfect sense in light of what Baha’u’llah wrote about will happen when Christ returns. The shout was raised when Baha’u’llah came and below He describes exactly what happened.

“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42

Brian2 said:

I could use verse 43 and precisely because that is what the Bible says.
1Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
The whole passage you quoted (and others of Paul) show that the body we have now will be raised and changed to an updated model.

Click to expand...

That is not what the verse says. It says nothing about our physical body being changed into an updated model.

43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength

What Paul is saying here is that the physical body is weak and broken, but the spiritual body that will live forever will be raised in strength and glory.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

The physical body is the natural human body that is buried. After it is buried it will be raised in a spiritual body. Paul is differentiating natural bodies from spiritual bodies, saying that they are not the same kind of bodies. A physical body cannot live forever but a glorified spiritual body will live forever.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

If we consider a wider vision we must also consider Elijah always comes first. In this age Elijah was the Bab (Gate).

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Who was the "Elijah" for those that Baha'is call manifestations.... Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses? And then Baha'is make their "Elijah" a manifestation. So you need another "Elijah" for The Bab. And even though you can probably come up with a name, were any of those people you plan to claim to be the "Elijah" to those other so-called manifestations ever recognized or believed to be the "Elijah" to them. Then who was the manifestation that was announced by the real Elijah?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

If we consider a wider vision we must also consider Elijah always comes first. In this age Elijah was the Bab (Gate).

In this Revelation there was Two Messengers the Bab and Baha'u'llah, they are inseparable as both Messages are tied together.

The Lamb in this revelation was the Bab who mankind slaughtered and again the tears flowed, Baha'u'llah showed us how these sacrafices, of the all the Messengers, feed the pure water of the Spirit into the fountain of the heart.

So the Bab, the Gate, the Lamb brought the tears, Baha’u’llah the Glory of God, wiped them away.

Regards Tony

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So in Revelation, who comes after the Lamb? And which verses are you using to show that?

Brian2 said:

The passages say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and you are saying that the Spirit of Truth brings the Holy Spirit.

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No, there are no passages that say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Brian2 said:

So Jesus did not bring the Holy Spirit, it was sent from the Father, and we are told that the last days began with Jesus.

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No, the last days did not begin with Jesus the last days begin when Christ returns.

Brian2 said:

Jesus was an advocate, and that means that He was a helper and intercedes and advocates for the disciples and the Holy Spirit does, and so the Holy Spirit can be called another Parakletos.
The problem with the Spirit of Truth being Baha'u'llah is that Baha'u'llah was a man and the Spirit of Truth is a spirit, the Holy Spirit.

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If Jesus was an advocate that means that the advocate cannot be the Holy Spirit as you have been saying, since Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was an advocate (comforter) that means that Baha’u’llah can also be an advocate (another Comforter).

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Spirit of truth is a spirit, the Holy Spirit. A spirit cannot testify of Jesus, only a man can do that.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Brian2 said:

John 14:26 is plain English and means that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send. No it could not mean what you propose it could mean. That is just changing the meaning.
But the Holy Spirit, a spirit, who is the promised Advocate, was promised to the disciples Jesus was speaking to. Read the passages again and it is plain. Also the Holy Spirit that was promised to them (the same one that is the Advocate and Spirit of Truth) was given to them at Pentecost.

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You cannot just cherry pick one verse and try to understand what it means out of the context of all the other verses.

John 14

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus was the comforter and that is why He said “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” Jesus did not say I will send the Holy Spirit to you, He said I will come to you

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is the Holy Spirit that teaches all things through Baha’u’llah.

Brian2 said:

Jesus finished His work on earth so was going to return to the Father and the world would not see Him any more because of that. But He was not going to leave them as orphans, He would come to them along with the Father and dwell in them. Jesus and the Father were going to be in the promised Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) and live in the disciples. But that does not mean that Jesus promise of returning one day is not true. It is just as true as the fact that Jesus had finished His work and was going to go to the Father.

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Jesus never promised to return to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Brian2 said:

The passage does not mention physical body or spirit, but that is OK as we already know that Jesus was in His resurrection body, His spiritual body, which is immortal and incorruptible and can live anywhere and also which is not just spirit but is flesh and bone. (Notice the passage says flesh and bone and not flesh and blood and also notice that Jesus says that He is not a spirit). This is the body He was in when He ascended to heaven logically.

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There is nothing logical about that, it is all a made up fantasy. There is no such body that is both spiritual and physical. There is nothing physical in the spiritual world (heaven).

There is no such thing as a physical body that is transformed into an immortal body. It is not in the Bible anywhere. This is a Christian belief that came about because the Bible was misinterpreted. ALL these misconceptions about a Resurrection Body came about because Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

It is clear and plain what the Bible says.

There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies, as Paul said. The physical body is the source of all corruption as the Bible says, it is the source of dishonor, it is weak, and that is because the physical body is subject to sin.

The spiritual body is incorruptible because spirit can never die. Paul said that the body is raised in glory and raised in power and that is because the spiritual body has glory and power. The soul (spirit) is glorified and has power because it was created by God.

Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor: We are raised in a spiritual body because only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

1st Corinthians 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The verse above says nothing about the physical body being changed into a glorified body that cannot die. The verses above clearly state that there are two kinds of bodies, a natural body and a spiritual body; we are sown in a natural body and we are raised in a spiritual body.

Brian2 said:

Baha'u'llah has to descend from heaven the way Jesus ascended, when the disciples saw Him ascend bodily and disappear into the clouds in the sky.

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Nowhere does the Bible say they saw Jesus ascend bodily. That is just your mistaken assumption and not all Christians believe what you believe. Many Christians who are reading the same Bible believe that it was the Spirit that ascended to heaven.

Brian2 said:

So why say that the Spirit comes before the signs of the end, as in the prophecy of Joel?

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I never said that. I said that the Spirit comes after the signs of the end, as in the prophecy of Joel.

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Brian2 said:

I have checked out the Baha'i interpretation of prophecy and find it to be faulty and really don't want to go from one topic to another, to another and then around in a circle and start again.
Yes I am saying I interpret the Bible differently and what you are saying is that you do not interpret the Bible. What you do is agree with Baha'u'llah, which is not an interpretation of the Bible.

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That won’t work because Baha’u’llah did not interpret any of those verses in Daniel 12, I interpreted them.
In fact, Baha’u’llah did not interpret any prophecies at all.

What makes your interpretation of Daniel 12 any better than my interpretation?
What makes your interpretation of any prophecies better than the Baha’i interpretation?
Can you prove that anything you believe the prophecies mean will ever come to pass?
All you have is a belief and expectations whereas the Baha’is have the actual fulfillment of the prophecies.

Brian2 said:

Of course I am speaking in my honest and humble opinion.
But you know I'm right,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,go on, admit it.

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No, I know you are wrong about Baha’u’llah being a false prophet. Baha’u’llah was a true Prophet and the return of Christ, which is in agreement with my interpretation of God's word in the Bible.

CG Didymus said:

So in Revelation, who comes after the Lamb? And which verses are you using to show that?

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The quoted verse by WonderingWorrier says who comes after the Lamb.

"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:17

Remember, this is the "Day of God".

Regards Tony

Brian2 said:

Yes he did.

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Quote Peter saying "Joel was speaking about that Pentecost." Otherwise it is just your personal opinion, so don’t state it as a fact.

Brian2 said:

The other Paraclete is identified as the Holy Spirit, a spirit. The other Paraclete is identified as the Spirit of Truth, also a spirit who goes out from the Father.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

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Both those verses above refer to Baha’u’llah, who was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth who brought the Holy Spirit from the Father who sent it to Him. Baha’u’llah testified about Jesus; a spirit cannot testify of anything because it cannot speak.

What it means to testify?

intransitive verb. 1 : to make a solemn declaration under oath for the purpose of establishing a fact (as in a court) 2a : to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief : bear witness. b : to serve as evidence or proof.
Testify | Definition of Testify by Merriam-Webster

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Brian2 said:

We can know that the Spirit of Truth is a spirit because He is the Spirit of Truth.

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No, we do not know that. That is a flimsy attempt but it won’t work. He and Him is not a spirit, He and Him is a man.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Brian2 said:

We are both doing too much of that, so I am going to stop here. Maybe we will meet for another round one day.

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You're too late.... I already caught up with you.

InvestigateTruth said:

Maybe this:


"Noah's flood is but the measure of the tears I have shed,

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But Noah had an Ark of three levels. He reached mountain and drank wine.


The sea is still at a higher level than the whole earth.

And the river is a higher level than the sea, as the hill is a higher level than the valley.


Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream



Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14


Which the word of God has done with: Corn - Oil - Wine

Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: Joel 2:19



Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Isaiah 40:12


Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. Matthew 21:21


We could consider the mountains.
Do you think the mountains should go into the sea?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

If we consider a wider vision we must also consider Elijah always comes first. In this age Elijah was the Bab (Gate).

In this Revelation there was Two Messengers the Bab and Baha'u'llah, they are inseparable as both Messages are tied together.

The Lamb in this revelation was the Bab who mankind slaughtered and again the tears flowed, Baha'u'llah showed us how these sacrafices, of the all the Messengers, feed the pure water of the Spirit into the fountain of the heart.

So the Bab, the Gate, the Lamb brought the tears, Baha’u’llah the Glory of God, wiped them away.

Regards Tony

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Remember what was said in another thread. We were talking about 10-80,000 year lifespans.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see numbers in holy scriptures can take on many meanings 80,000 is interesting Could it be that is the lifespan of the age of Prophecy and does the 10 years hint to the Message of the Bab? the shortest Revelation before Buddha Returned?

Lots to consider, I will explore more as I always love trying to tie it all together, be it right, wrong or misguided inbetween

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You said:
"I see numbers in holy scriptures can take on many meanings 80,000 is interesting Could it be that is the lifespan of the age of Prophecy and does the 10 years hint to the Message of the Bab? the shortest Revelation before Buddha Returned?

Lots to consider, I will explore more as I always love trying to tie it all together, be it right, wrong or misguided inbetween".


I thought it was a spiritual measurement. Gautama was also said to be the eldest.



Lets get back to the fountain:


Do you think Baha'u'llah is speaking about the legendary fountain of youth?



Glory rest upon you and upon those who have attained unto that living fountain which floweth forth from My wondrous Pen.”
28 December 1999 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)


O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)




Like I said earlier. I think the fountain of living waters is tears of salt water from the eyes.

Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years. Isaiah 38:5

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The quoted verse by WonderingWorrier says who comes after the Lamb.

"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:17

Remember, this is the "Day of God".

Regards Tony

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Okay, you say the Lamb is The Bab and that God comes after to wipe away the tears? So you are saying that the Lamb, The Bab, is the manifestation/forerunner to God? And I'm supposed to remember this is the Day of God? Still, nothing specific about a second manifestation that comes after The Lamb?