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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The Angel of the Lord is described as the voice talking from the burning bush. Moses couldn't have been talking to God the Father because he didn't see the face of God, which is why I believe he spoke to Jesus.
So why add Jesus to the verse? It works perfectly fine without it. Moses was speaking to an Angel of God. Done. No changes or ammendments needed.

I ask you again, do you want me to worship an idol or put my faith in a false messiah?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No.... that verse doesn't say "persons". At best all you have is "implied" and "could have been".

That's not enough to tempt me into accidentlly worshipping an idol or putting my faith in a messiah claimant. Do you want me to worship an idol? Do you want me to put my faith in a false messiah?

There was no need to talk about the different persons of the Trinity in that verse because God was saying something akin to let there be light. It was very simple. The details of who God is weren't relevant at that point. The Trinity is implied in a subtle way.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No.... that verse doesn't say "persons". At best all you have is "implied" and "could have been".

That's not enough to tempt me into accidentlly worshipping an idol or putting my faith in a messiah claimant. Do you want me to worship an idol? Do you want me to put my faith in a false messiah?

How do you explain the New Covenant and all the prophecies about the Israel being fulfilled by Jesus? Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

Shalom to all. Messiah Yeshua came to atone for the sins of both Jew and Gentile so that we can have a living, breathing relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yeshua fulfills every single prophesy of the Messiah as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures. Yeshua was born a Jew—his legal father's (Joseph's) genealogy is found in Matthew chapter 1.​

If you are unfamiliar with some of the Hebrew terms used here, please see the definitions at the end of this page. The following are just a few of the prophecies that were literally fulfilled. Please click here for dozens of prophecies from the Tenakh/Hebrew scriptures that Messiah Yeshua fulfilled...

***Definitions***
Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant = New Testament
L'Hit Ra'ote = until we meet again
Messiah = Anointed; the promised deliverer of the Jews; Christ is the Greek equivalent
Shalom = peace (used as hello or goodbye)
Shalom Alechem = peace be unto you
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture = Old Testament
Yeshua = Jesus

  • Man of sorrows who was wounded for our transgressions.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Isaiah 53:4-5, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Isaiah 53:10 says, Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, and he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    Isaiah 53:12 says, ...he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Isaiah 53:8, ...for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    II Corinthians 5:21..he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    I John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    I John 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    I Peter 2:24, Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree [cross], that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.



  • Messiah is the Son of God.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Psalm 2:7, I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    Proverbs 30:4, Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    Luke 3, ...a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.



  • Messiah cut off before destruction of the sanctuary.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Daniel 9:24-26, Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks: and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.--after the death of the Messiah.



  • Perfect sacrifice.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Leviticus 16 details how the priest is to give atonement for the sins of the people by shedding the blood of animals. These animals were substitutionary sacrifices. Moses's actions picture what Christ would do on the cross as the perfect sacrifice- deity in human form without sin and without blemish.

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    II Corinthians 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    John 1:29, ...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    I Peter 1:18-19, ...redeemed with...the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

    Unlike the blood of goats which had to be offered once a year in atonement, Christ takes away our sins for eternity.



  • Born in Bethlehem.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Micah 5:2, But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    Luke 2:1, 4-7, ...there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. And Joseph also went up from Galilee out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son...



  • Born of a virgin.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Isaiah 7:14, Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [meaning God with us-Matthew 1:23].

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    Luke 1:26-27, 31,34-35, ...the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, Named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David...(and the angel said)...behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS..Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (See Matthew chapters 1 and 2 and Luke chapters 1 and 2.)

    (ASIDE: Catholicism has unscripturally exalted the role of Mary. She is not to be worshipped and neither are saints or statues).



  • His messenger sent before Him.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Malachi 3:1, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 40:3, The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    Matthew 3:1-3, In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, and saying, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Matthew 3:11 (John speaking), I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worth to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

    When the Pharisees asked who he was, John explained in John 1:23, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias."



  • Rejected by Israel.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Isaiah 8:14, And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

    Psalm 118:22-23, The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

    Isaiah 28:16, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation...
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
And Elohim isn't plural.

Again -- if I am talking to a crowd "I said, let's buy goats!" the subject, the one who "said" is singular even though the verb is plural, because the verb is including others in the action.

The person saying goats indicates that a plurality is relevant to that discussion.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You mean when it says that God is singular? Then it doesn't rule out a binity, or a quadrinity or anythign else because saying "one" means something else to you.

The Bible verses about the Spirit of the Lord hovering over the water and the Angel of the Lord appearing to Moses don't support a binity or a quadrinity.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There was no need to talk about the different persons of the Trinity in that verse because God was saying something akin to let there be light. It was very simple. The details of who God is weren't relevant at that point. The Trinity is implied in a subtle way.
Therefore, you still cannot show that God became a person. Not only that, Jewish Monotheism began with Abraham. None of these verses from Genesis have any bearing on whom a Jewish person worships. Maybe Abraham's father the idol-worshipper believed in multple Gods for the same reasons you are providing?

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I keep asking you if you want me to worship an idol or put my faith in a false messiah. You haven't answered so I'll take a guess.

I don't think you want me to transgress against God in that manner. You seem like a nice person who is devoted and knowledgable about Christianity.

If you don't want me to worship an idol or put my faith in a false messiah, you **need** to do better than imply that Jesus maybe, might be, the Jewish messiah. You have to prove it using Tanach.

Anytime you bring a verse that implies that Jesus could be the Messiah, it will be rejected. Any time you bring a verse that implies worshipping Man as a God, it will be rejected. This is because my commitment not to worship an idol nor to follow a false messiah is very strong. I take this commitment very seriously. You should respect that.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Therefore, you still cannot show that God became a person. Not only that, Jewish Monotheism began with Abraham. None of these verses from Genesis have any bearing on whom a Jewish person worships. Maybe Abraham's father the idol-worshipper believed in multple Gods for the same reasons you are providing?

-------------------------------------------

I keep asking you if you want me to worship an idol or put my faith in a false messiah. You haven't answered so I'll take a guess.

I don't think you want me to transgress against God in that manner. You seem like a nice person who is devoted and knowledgable about Christianity.

If you don't want me to worship an idol or put my faith in a false messiah, you **need** to do better than imply that Jesus maybe, might be, the Jewish messiah. You have to prove it using Tanach.

Anytime you bring a verse that implies that Jesus could be the Messiah, it will be rejected. This is because my commitment not to worship an idol nor to follow a false messiah is very strong. I take this commitment very seriously. You should respect that.

Moses wrote the book of Genesis. The Angel of the Lord appearing to the parents of Samson is an example of Jesus in the Old Testament. Just because rabbis don't think Jesus was the Messiah doesn't mean that believing in Jesus is idolatry. I believe that the Antichrist will be a false Messiah who will influence people to worship idols.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The person saying goats indicates that a plurality is relevant to that discussion.
As long as you rercognize that the person is a singular. The person is in the position of "Elohim"demonstrating that Elohim is a singular. Thanks.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So why add Jesus to the verse? It works perfectly fine without it. Moses was speaking to an Angel of God. Done. No changes or ammendments needed.

I ask you again, do you want me to worship an idol or put my faith in a false messiah?

Why would an angel tell Moses I am? I am is a reference to the self existing eternal Godhead.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
What refutes Elohim being a plural of Eloah?
Nothing. You haven't been paying attention, have you? Elohim CAN be a plural of Eloah and it CAN be a singular with a couple of different meanings. The verb/pronoun/adjective establishes which version of the word is being used.

If you aren't going to read what I write, then I'll stop putting in the effort to write it.
 
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