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Is altruism really due to religious sensibility?

Does religion result in significantly more altruistic behaviour?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • No

    Votes: 12 80.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Most Christians world over still believe unrepentant LGBT, people of different religious beliefs, who have no marital sex etc will die in whatever flavor of Revelation apocalypse they have.

Believing that their execution is imminent for such things is hateful. Believing that it was justified before Jesus is also hateful.

The numerous biblical genocides would still be the work of a monster.

Tl;dr: if you believe executing people for being gay was, at any time, for any reason justifiable, you're hateful.

Yes... there are all types of Christians beliefs that run the gamete - just as there are LGBT churches too.

But it doesn't change that the message of Jesus was love and not hate.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Did you miss the paragraph immediately before that one?



While churches get treated like charities - actually better than charities in some ways - under American tax law, it's a bit deceptive to act like religious people paying for the upkeep and operation of what's effectively their social club is as altruistic as donating to a legitimate charity.
Not at all, and I understand that.

What isn't mentioned in your statement that as they give to the church it is then outreached into community helps. When I give to the Salvation Army (a church), it is also giving to home shelters, emergency help, food and so much more. Just because it is "church" doesn't mean it doesn't help the community.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I don't see where you have established any New Testament truth. Hatred wasn't a Jesus message. Knowing more than someone else doesn't translate into understanding more. Some of the Pharisees knew a whole lot but Jesus said "You don't know the Father".
Because you thought I went exclusively with the OT citing my list of people god wants dead, as well as fhe fact Jesus said did not do away with the Laws and Prophets, nothing of that has changed, amd remains unchanged because according to most Christians not all has yet been fulfilled.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I think the cheese cuts both ways. If we're going to blame the bad things religious people do on the bad teachings of their religions, then it's only fair to equally attribute the good things they do to the good teachings of their religions.

If religion is irrelevant to good deeds, then it's equally irrelevant to bad ones.
And it may well be the case that religion is irrelevant. It's been my experience that people do pretty much what they want in any case. After all, Richard III murdered two children -- his own nephews -- so that he could be King. How many priests molested children, knowing that they ought not? Did Pius IX kidnap Edgardo Mortara at age 6, and refuse every attempt by his family to have him returned, or did he not? (Hint: he did.)
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Interesting... I have been around a ton of Christians and I have never heard about, was neither taught or promoted... I guess there are exceptions to every rule.

What I have heard is that there are Christians who don't believe in the climate control as promoted -- but it had nothing to do with faith.

Maybe it depends on the denomination. I was mostly Baptist.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Again, interesting. You would probably qualify me as a "religious right" and I have friends ministering from Zimbabwe, to India, to Israel, Cuba and Honduras and none of them have strings attached. Schools, food, medical brigades et al.

I'm sure there are strange Christians, atheists et al... but I don't know of anyone that is pro-slavery. I know that there are many pro-sex slave... but I wouldn't call them Christians.

That is awesome! The pro-slavery attitude is old, but sadly, it stuck around in the form of thinking that blacks are not equal to whites and that's how god wanted it. I would like to think that way of thinking is on the way out.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
It is true. I went through it myself and have known others who did as well.

The Bible is still the Bible, and regardless the denomination or location the Bible itself teaches intolerance, hatred, and violence.

It's not so bad when Christians understand it as a man-made document full of human foibles, but to say it's inerrant doesn't reflect very positively.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not at all, and I understand that.

What isn't mentioned in your statement that as they give to the church it is then outreached into community helps.
Generally not.

The Phil Ferguson Show (an interesting atheism/financial planning podcast) has an occasional segment on church financial statements. Listeners are encouraged to send in church financial statements - always acquired legally... e.g. if a listener's voting location is a neighbourhood church, and they have a stack of financial statements sitting on the table with church bulletins, tracts, and other items for people to take with them. Phil goes through the statenent on his show to explore how much money the church takes in and how they spend it.


When I give to the Salvation Army (a church), it is also giving to home shelters, emergency help, food and so much more. Just because it is "church" doesn't mean it doesn't help the community.
And I bet you realize that the Salvation Army follows quite a different model than most churches. Most give little to nothing to legitimate charitable work.

That aside, let's see how good the Salvation Army is as a charity:

Finance & Accountability
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The Salvation Army | Charity Navigator Profile

No information at all. As a church, they aren't required to file financial statements, so they don't. They also don't report on the impact of their programs. Maybe they're good and maybe they're not, but as far as transparency and accountability to their donors go, they're a black hole... so we just don't know.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I think the cheese cuts both ways. If we're going to blame the bad things religious people do on the bad teachings of their religions, then it's only fair to equally attribute the good things they do to the good teachings of their religions.

If religion is irrelevant to good deeds, then it's equally irrelevant to bad ones.
I don't think it necessarily works that way. We are social animals, "hardwired" for empathy, cooperation, and pro-social behaviors. We aren't hardwired to view sex as shameful, and having it sinful, and we must be taught to kill those who do it before and outside of marriage.
Amd many seem to forget or not apply that many religions have mandates on tithing and charity. That's more like a tax than charity when one is obligated to give.
Group cohesion is our thing. Kicking your kids out isn't. Luke 14:26 is abnormal and just not something were going to normally conclude on our own.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Because you thought I went exclusively with the OT citing my list of people god wants dead, as well as fhe fact Jesus said did not do away with the Laws and Prophets, nothing of that has changed, amd remains unchanged because according to most Christians not all has yet been fulfilled.
I'm sorry, but that isn't supported in the NT
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That is awesome! The pro-slavery attitude is old, but sadly, it stuck around in the form of thinking that blacks are not equal to whites and that's how god wanted it. I would like to think that way of thinking is on the way out.
Yes... that is true. I am happy that people finally realized that there is no exception of people in God's family.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Generally not.

The Phil Ferguson Show (an interesting atheism/financial planning podcast) has an occasional segment on church financial statements. Listeners are encouraged to send in church financial statements - always acquired legally... e.g. if a listener's voting location is a neighbourhood church, and they have a stack of financial statements sitting on the table with church bulletins, tracts, and other items for people to take with them. Phil goes through the statenent on his show to explore how much money the church takes in and how they spend it.



And I bet you realize that the Salvation Army follows quite a different model than most churches. Most give little to nothing to legitimate charitable work.

That aside, let's see how good the Salvation Army is as a charity:



The Salvation Army | Charity Navigator Profile

No information at all. As a church, they aren't required to file financial statements, so they don't. They also don't report on the impact of their programs. Maybe they're good and maybe they're not, but as far as transparency and accountability to their donors go, they're a black hole... so we just don't know.
https://salvationarmyannualreport.org/financials/
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think it necessarily works that way. We are social animals, "hardwired" for empathy, cooperation, and pro-social behaviors. We aren't hardwired to view sex as shameful, and having it sinful, and we must be taught to kill those who do it before and outside of marriage.

Very few religions, certainly none of the major ones, teach anything as simplistic as "sex is shameful." That is really a caricature. What they have frequently taught is that sex should only be done under certain circumstances, and have made transgressions of those boundaries into crimes and so on. Secularist governments have also maintained such boundaries in law, including criminalizing gay sex, passing laws against women's rights, and so on.

And many seem to forget or not apply that many religions have mandates on tithing and charity. That's more like a tax than charity when one is obligated to give.
Group cohesion is our thing. Kicking your kids out isn't. Luke 14:26 is abnormal and just not something were going to normally conclude on our own.

I don't view taxation as some inherently bad thing - and again, this is something that every government on Earth does.

Many authoritarian ideologies, including secular ones, demand loyalty to the movement over blood. That is, again, nothing new.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Rather vague, and I notice that the page mentions that they have audited financial statements, but the statements on the page say "unaudited" on them. Raises some red flags.
I confess that I am a (somewhat reluctant, sometimes) support of the Salvation Army. My middle name (Allen, which I go by) is actually in honour of a female "Major Allen" of the Sally Ann. My mother wasn't exactly married when she was pregnant with me, and with her parents and community against her, it was only Major Allen who saw her through pregnancy. I was born in Toronto's Salvation Army Grace Hospital. My mother named her next three children D. Allen, R. Allen and P. Alice (leaving out their names for their protection), all for Major Allen.

The SA urinates me off sometimes, with their moral stance, but I feel (perhaps without adequate justification) that they also do some good. In fact, there is a large SA nursing home only 2 1/2 blocks from where I live, which is really well kept, has happy residents and -- unbelievably these days -- no COVID-19 deaths.

So on balance, I will continue to support them.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Rather vague, and I notice that the page mentions that they have audited financial statements, but the statements on the page say "unaudited" on them. Raises some red flags.

There are different types of audits. But the list of services are registered and have no reason to doubt what they are doing. Unless we assume just because it is a church... they must be doing something wrong.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There are different types of audits. But the list of services are registered and have no reason to doubt what they are doing.
Their (unaudited, so take it with a grain of salt) shows about $820,000 going to "community centres;" that's a euphemism for their churches, right?

Add that to the $648,000 for management and fundraising, and about 40% of their expenses are going toward non-charitable activities. That's a pretty poor ratio compared to legitimate charities.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I confess that I am a (somewhat reluctant, sometimes) support of the Salvation Army. My middle name (Allen, which I go by) is actually in honour of a female "Major Allen" of the Sally Ann. My mother wasn't exactly married when she was pregnant with me, and with her parents and community against her, it was only Major Allen who saw her through pregnancy. I was born in Toronto's Salvation Army Grace Hospital. My mother named her next three children D. Allen, R. Allen and P. Alice (leaving out their names for their protection), all for Major Allen.

The SA urinates me off sometimes, with their moral stance, but I feel (perhaps without adequate justification) that they also do some good. In fact, there is a large SA nursing home only 2 1/2 blocks from where I live, which is really well kept, has happy residents and -- unbelievably these days -- no COVID-19 deaths.

So on balance, I will continue to support them.
And just to be clear: I'm not - in this thread, at least - suggesting that the Salvation Army doesn't do good work or that they shouldn't be supported.

We're off on this tangent because I pointed out to @KenS that - according to the article he linked to - "charitable" donations by Evangelicals predominantly go to churches, not to legitimate charities.

@KenS 's response of - effectively - "yeah, but the Salvation Army is a church and they do lots of charitable work" is a bit of a red herring: we can see from the financial statements he linked to that the US branches of the Salvation Army only took in $3.3 million in revenue for the most recent year where information is available. Whatever groups American Christians and churches are donating money to, it's predominantly not the Salvation Army.

... but on top of that, donations to the Salvation Army end up funding much more non-charitable stuff than would be the case if that money was donated to the average secular charity.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Their (unaudited, so take it with a grain of salt) shows about $820,000 going to "community centres;" that's a euphemism for their churches, right?

Add that to the $648,000 for management and fundraising, and about 40% of their expenses are going toward non-charitable activities. That's a pretty poor ratio compared to legitimate charities.
Again.. if you WANT to think the worst, you can. However, here in the Melbourne, Fl area their "community centers" are their churches that include housing for single moms, food centers for the needy and other activities.

So I'm not sure what you are trying to get at other than you don't like churches.
 
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