Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
No of course not. That would not be justice. God is justice. But I believe hell is temporary. Maybe hell is 100000000 of years for some very evil people, but not eternal.
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Maybe reincarnation is just an illusion of God's love
- Thread starter Starlight
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No of course not. That would not be justice. God is justice. But I believe hell is temporary. Maybe hell is 100000000 of years for some very evil people, but not eternal.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Now i understand you better
I stressed much the same to @Meandflower on her other thread concerning the topic of reincarnation (where she expressed some displeasure at traditional orthodox Christianity, because our conception of the afterlife does not affirm metempsychosis or transmigration of the soul).
Over on that thread, I explained how quite a few second century heterodox Christian sects actually did espouse a belief in 'reincarnation' but, crucially, they did not attribute the attachment cycle of birth and rebirth to the mercy, grace or 'divine plan' of the Supreme God.
The church father Origen (c. 184 – c. 253) attributed this phenomenon to the immortal soul and its choices from 'aeon to aeon', either 'restoring' itself to a higher spiritual good or descending to a lower material evil:
there were certain causes of prior existence, in consequence of which the souls, before their birth in the body, contracted a certain amount of guilt in their sensitive nature, or in their movements...we are of opinion that, seeing the soul, as we have frequently said, is immortal and eternal, it is possible that, in the many and endless periods of duration in the immeasurable and different worlds, it may descend from the highest good to the lowest evil, or be restored from the lowest evil to the highest good. (De Principiis III.i.21)
Valentinus (c. AD 100 – c. 160) again, a gnostic preacher who nearly became Bishop of Rome, taught the same according to the fourth-century church father Epiphanius:
Valentinus and Colarbasus, and all gnostics claim that there is a reincarnation of souls, and that there are transmigrations of the soul of (spiritually) ignorant persons – as they themselves call them.... They say that the soul returns and is reembodied in each of the animals until it recognizes (the truth), and is thus cleansed and set free, and departs to the heavens
(Epiphanius, Panarion)
(Epiphanius, Panarion)
Valentinus's disciple, Theodotus, likewise taught as follows in regards to the liberating power of Christian baptism, by alluding to knowledge of prior lives/births accruing from it:
Theodotus (2nd century, Excerpta ex Theodoto 78)
78 Until baptism, they say, Fate is real, but after it the astrologists are no longer right. But it is not only the washing of baptism that is liberating, but the knowledge of who we were, and what we have become, where we were or where we were placed, whither we hasten, from what we are redeemed, what birth is and what rebirth.
More on their theology:
Valentinian Monism - Valentinus and the Valentinian Tradition
Valentinian sources describe God as containing all things within himself. An anonymous Valentinian quoted by Irenaeus claims that, "the Father of all contains all things, and that there is nothing whatever outside of the Pleroma..." (Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:4:2). Using virtually identical language, another author argues that God "contains in himself all things and is himself not contained" (Doctrinal Epistle quoted in Epiphanius Panarion 31:5:3).
The fact that we have come forth within the Father does not imply that we are acquainted with him. According to Valentinus, God is ultimately responsible for the creation of all things "It is he who created the entirety and the entirety is in him" (Gospel of Truth 19:8-9) However, the "entirety" i.e. those within the Father "were unacquainted with the Father since it was he whom they did not see"(Gospel of Truth 28:32-29:1). Being only a small part of reality, they are unable to perceive it completely on their own. In vain, "the entirety searched for the one from whom they had emanated" (Gospel of Truth 17:4-6). It is something of a paradox that we are within God, yet we do not recognize or know him. As Valentinus says, "It was quite amazing that they were in the Father without being acquainted with him and that they alone were able to emanate, inasmuch as they were not able perceive and recognize the one in whom they were" (Gospel of Truth 22:27-32)
Due to our ignorance of God we can fall into an erroneous or false understanding of reality ("error" or "deficiency"). According to Valentinus, "Ignorance of the Father caused agitation and fear. And the agitation grew dense like fog, so that no one could see. Thus error found strength" (Gospel of Truth 17:9-20). According to Valentinians, the material universe that we perceive is an illusion deriving from our ignorance of the Father. This is often expressed by Valentinians though the story of Sophia (Divine Wisdom). This myth describes Sophia's ignorance of God and the suffering that results. It is the suffering that results from her error that constitutes the material realm.
Valentinus describes the "realm of appearance" as an bad dream as "when one falls asleep and finds one's self in the midst of nightmares" (Gospel of Truth 29:8-10f). The author of the Treatise on Resurrection similarly describes the material world as follows, "Suddenly the living are dying - surely they are not alive at all in this world of apparition! - the rich have become poor, rulers overthrown: all changes, the world is an apparition" (Treatise on Resurrection 48:19-27cf Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:14)....
In contrast to the reality of the Father, "those things which are 'outside' of the Fullness have no true existence... These things are images of those which truly exist." (Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:14:3). The things we perceive in the physical world are often described as "images" or "shadows" of the divine realm. (Valentinian Exposition 36:10-13, Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:5:1,2:6:3, etc.) This is a reference to the famous Platonic parable which compares the physical world to shadows cast on the back wall of a cave. God is the only reality. However, we who are ignorant of the true situation mistake the shadows for reality. We construct an illusory false reality for ourselves because we are ignorant of the overall picture.
Just as the illusion arose as result of ignorance, it will be dissolved through knowledge (gnosis). Upon knowledge (gnosis) of God, the world of multiplicity vanishes. As an anonymous source puts it, "Since deficiency and suffering had their origin in ignorance, the entire system originating in ignorance is dissolved by knowledge (gnosis)" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:21:4 cf. also Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:4:3).
The illusion of multiplicity vanishes once the person knows the true reality. According to Valentinus, "Inasmuch as the lack came into being because the Father was not known, from the moment the Father is known, the lack will not exist...lack passes away in completion, and so from that moment on, the realm of appearance is no longer manifest but will pass away in the harmony of unity...It is by acquaintance (gnosis) that all will purify themselves out of multiplicity into unity, consuming matter within themselves as fire" (Gospel of Truth 24:28-25:19 cf. also Treatise on Resurrection 48:38-49:4, Valentinus Fragment 4). The material world is an illusion that is dissolved by knowledge (gnosis) of God.
Not only does the realm of multiplicity pass away through knowledge (gnosis), so does the distinction between the self and God. To know God is to be God. According to the Gospel of Philip, "People cannot see anything in the real realm unless they become it...if you have seen the spirit, you have become the spirit; if you have seen Christ, you have become Christ; if you have seen the Father, you will become the Father" (Gospel of Philip 61:20-32 cf. 67:26-27). It represents a restoration to the syzygy, that is, the reestablishment of the link between the self and the divine.
Once you understand that reality, your perception of multiplicity is gone. The duality vanishes since it was never really there in the first place. According to the Gospel of Philip, "The world has already become the eternal realm (Aeon), for to this person the eternal realm is Fullness. As such, it is manifest to him or her alone, not hidden in the darkness and the night, but hidden in perfect day and holy light" (Gospel of Philip).
It implies that for the person who has gnosis, there is no longer any distinction between the world and the Pleroma. Through gnosis one can participate in and experience the divine realm. As a result, "the Valentinian and his or her world have been completely absorbed by the divine fullness or entirety" (Dawson 1992).
The fact that we have come forth within the Father does not imply that we are acquainted with him. According to Valentinus, God is ultimately responsible for the creation of all things "It is he who created the entirety and the entirety is in him" (Gospel of Truth 19:8-9) However, the "entirety" i.e. those within the Father "were unacquainted with the Father since it was he whom they did not see"(Gospel of Truth 28:32-29:1). Being only a small part of reality, they are unable to perceive it completely on their own. In vain, "the entirety searched for the one from whom they had emanated" (Gospel of Truth 17:4-6). It is something of a paradox that we are within God, yet we do not recognize or know him. As Valentinus says, "It was quite amazing that they were in the Father without being acquainted with him and that they alone were able to emanate, inasmuch as they were not able perceive and recognize the one in whom they were" (Gospel of Truth 22:27-32)
Due to our ignorance of God we can fall into an erroneous or false understanding of reality ("error" or "deficiency"). According to Valentinus, "Ignorance of the Father caused agitation and fear. And the agitation grew dense like fog, so that no one could see. Thus error found strength" (Gospel of Truth 17:9-20). According to Valentinians, the material universe that we perceive is an illusion deriving from our ignorance of the Father. This is often expressed by Valentinians though the story of Sophia (Divine Wisdom). This myth describes Sophia's ignorance of God and the suffering that results. It is the suffering that results from her error that constitutes the material realm.
Valentinus describes the "realm of appearance" as an bad dream as "when one falls asleep and finds one's self in the midst of nightmares" (Gospel of Truth 29:8-10f). The author of the Treatise on Resurrection similarly describes the material world as follows, "Suddenly the living are dying - surely they are not alive at all in this world of apparition! - the rich have become poor, rulers overthrown: all changes, the world is an apparition" (Treatise on Resurrection 48:19-27cf Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:14)....
In contrast to the reality of the Father, "those things which are 'outside' of the Fullness have no true existence... These things are images of those which truly exist." (Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:14:3). The things we perceive in the physical world are often described as "images" or "shadows" of the divine realm. (Valentinian Exposition 36:10-13, Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:5:1,2:6:3, etc.) This is a reference to the famous Platonic parable which compares the physical world to shadows cast on the back wall of a cave. God is the only reality. However, we who are ignorant of the true situation mistake the shadows for reality. We construct an illusory false reality for ourselves because we are ignorant of the overall picture.
Just as the illusion arose as result of ignorance, it will be dissolved through knowledge (gnosis). Upon knowledge (gnosis) of God, the world of multiplicity vanishes. As an anonymous source puts it, "Since deficiency and suffering had their origin in ignorance, the entire system originating in ignorance is dissolved by knowledge (gnosis)" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:21:4 cf. also Irenaeus Against Heresies 2:4:3).
The illusion of multiplicity vanishes once the person knows the true reality. According to Valentinus, "Inasmuch as the lack came into being because the Father was not known, from the moment the Father is known, the lack will not exist...lack passes away in completion, and so from that moment on, the realm of appearance is no longer manifest but will pass away in the harmony of unity...It is by acquaintance (gnosis) that all will purify themselves out of multiplicity into unity, consuming matter within themselves as fire" (Gospel of Truth 24:28-25:19 cf. also Treatise on Resurrection 48:38-49:4, Valentinus Fragment 4). The material world is an illusion that is dissolved by knowledge (gnosis) of God.
Not only does the realm of multiplicity pass away through knowledge (gnosis), so does the distinction between the self and God. To know God is to be God. According to the Gospel of Philip, "People cannot see anything in the real realm unless they become it...if you have seen the spirit, you have become the spirit; if you have seen Christ, you have become Christ; if you have seen the Father, you will become the Father" (Gospel of Philip 61:20-32 cf. 67:26-27). It represents a restoration to the syzygy, that is, the reestablishment of the link between the self and the divine.
Once you understand that reality, your perception of multiplicity is gone. The duality vanishes since it was never really there in the first place. According to the Gospel of Philip, "The world has already become the eternal realm (Aeon), for to this person the eternal realm is Fullness. As such, it is manifest to him or her alone, not hidden in the darkness and the night, but hidden in perfect day and holy light" (Gospel of Philip).
It implies that for the person who has gnosis, there is no longer any distinction between the world and the Pleroma. Through gnosis one can participate in and experience the divine realm. As a result, "the Valentinian and his or her world have been completely absorbed by the divine fullness or entirety" (Dawson 1992).
As one can see from the above, for Valentinian Christians the material world of 'multiplicity' and 'becoming' represented nothing more than an illusion, a 'bad dream' one must wake up from caused by a deficiency that consisted in ignorance of God the Father (a lack of knowledge/awareness of Him) who is the "Entirety".
Suffering (death) was considered to be an illusory condition and evil (ignorance) naught but a "deficiency" that needed to be "filled up", that is overcome through the saving truth of the gospel. Upon being baptised and liberated through the gnosis (knowledge) of Christ the Saviour, the incarnation of God, one's perception of anything existing outside the Pleroma (Divine Fullness) was expected to 'vanish' in a manner akin to the sun's light dispersing a fog of error, as the 'pneumatic soul' discovered its true self and what was truly "real" behind the realm of mere "appearances".
This kind of solipsistic-esque monism would seem to be a common assumption in many religions that believe in some variant of "soul transmigration", so far as I can tell (even in early Christianity of all places!).
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Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Have you talked to Catholic priests about reincarnation? What do they say about it?
It's not a topic of habitual conversation amongst Catholic theologians or scholars, I should note.
As I explained on your previous thread, our doctrine of purgatory already provides us with an intermediate, post-mortem "condition of existence" for souls in a state of sanctifying grace which still need to undergo further cleansing to attain requisite 'purity' from the dross of sin accumulated in life - so as to be worthy of the Beatific Vision (the spiritual apprehension of the Essence of God as He is in Himself, without any intermediary between the soul (subject) and Divine Essence (object)).
Likewise, Catholic doctrine does not affirm that anyone is actually in the state of "eternal" hell (separation from the essence of God, who is Being Itself): it merely states that by a choice of the individual such a state of damnation remains a 'possibility' arising from human freewill, which could choose total self-exclusion from the love of God.
The church has only ever confirmed, through its canonizations, that some beatified souls have 'bypassed' the need for purgation and immediately attained enjoyment of the Beatific Vision (sanctification in heaven), on account of their particularly saintly lives. No Catholic Christian need believe, however, that any human's soul is in hell (though they may also believe this, as we just don't know this side of the eschaton).
So, I guess, I just don't see the 'problem' from our perspective that requires 'reincarnation' as a solution. We simply don't feel the 'need' for such a belief - certainly not as an outflow of the merciful dispensation of God, which believers in reincarnation don't even typically believe it to be (rather they tend to view it as emerging from 'illusion' and 'ignorance' of true Reality; in religious systems like Advaita and the pre-Nicene Valentinian Christian Gnosis).
Ultimately, St. Paul taught us that at the consummation of the kosmos: "God [will] be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28), so we have a valid hope in the eventual universal salvation of all human beings; that every one who has ever lived will enjoy the Beatific Vision and apprehend God as He is in Himself for all eternity.
And that is what I pray for, whenever I can - apocatastasis, restoration to the original or primordial condition when there was nothing but the Being of God in perfect happiness and wholeness (the Beatific Vision, eternal life in heaven).
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InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Maybe God is so Merciful that He does not bring us back anymore. He just takes us to another world, much better than here.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
You do not understand. It has never ever been about giving people extra chances. It's simple Math. There is much more to learn than could ever be accomplished in one mere lifetime.
There are reasons death exists. Worry not!!
Do not allow religion to corrupt your thinking. You are never going to have a problem from God.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
I believe in reincarnation and the eventual liberation of all into God's Oneness. Infinite intelligence creates a system even greater than we can imagine with our finite earthly thinking.
shivsomashekhar
Well-Known Member
Take God out of the equation. Life becomes simple.
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
No without God my life have no meaning.
shivsomashekhar
Well-Known Member
That is concerning.
Please explain how your life today (just this one day) would be different if you ignored this God. I am curious to know why your life has no meaning without this belief.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Getting rid of evil in the world seems to be something that we all want, including the Christian God.
At the judgement there will be a separation of those who want to keep doing what is evil from those who do not and this seems to be based on how we have lived our lives, as judged by the God who knows and understands us thoroughly.
God thinks of everyone and not just those who have been evil in this life. God thinks of how to get a utopia without turning people into robots. Trusting God for the just and merciful fate of all people is a good way to find peace about the afterlife.
Alea iacta est
Pretend that I wrote something cool.
Don't worry. Hell doesn't have any support in the Bible. It also contradicts to a merciful and loving God.
Could the "book of life" be a record of past and current lives? Or, is the book of life eternal life in heaven? To be written out of the book of life means cast into hell.
Revelation 22:19 (a chapter of the bible) says that those who alter the meaning or words of Revelation will be "written out of the book of life forever."
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Revelation 20:12 "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 22:19 (a chapter of the bible) says that those who alter the meaning or words of Revelation will be "written out of the book of life forever."
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Revelation 20:12 "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
This makes me wonder if people are following god out of fear they're just not realizing it.
I believe we have only one opportunity and those who are righteous get the eternal life and others will be destroyed.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Without God life is just random, without God then life has no higher meaning. Without God I feel more fear. God gives me hope. It helps to think God loves me and cares for me. This world is so much darker without God in my opinion.
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
hmm..If this is true then God is not so loving
Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Do you belive God is love?
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Rest assured, reincarnation is a fact and not alien to God's religious doctrine as taught in Sikhism and Prajapita Brahmakumaris.
Eternal damnation is a laugh.
It is incorrect to perceive God in this manner as a cruel tyrant, as God is said to have the love of a thousand mothers and so on for every child of His.
However what we do is based on our free will and wisdom, and if we act foolishly we will create hell for ourselves and unnecessary suffering. We are damning ourselves, and not God. This is what God considers as foolishness and unwise action.
We sow what we reap by karma performed. By wise and good actions we create a heaven for ourselves and by foolish and evil actions we create a hell for ourselves. God is the ultimate Guru who seeks our prosperity and seeks to divert us from evil actions and suffering by all means possible, while at the same time respecting our free will.