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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Last chance... there are deep parallelisms to the Bible to get you thinking.

My personal feeling is that if you were serious, you would do a zoom with me and we go through the Hebrew text w/o English translations. If not, it must not be that big of a thing. Thus, I think that the point you are making has nothing to do with truth but instead the opposite of the truth. ;)
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You accept, I believe, that king David was a 'type' of Christ, or Messiah. Isn't this why the prophet Ezekiel is able to say, 'David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd' [Ezekiel 37:24]?

David, whom you accept as being of the root of Jesse, was, like his father, born in Bethlehem. Why, then, do you think that your future Messiah will be born elsewhere?
David is the archetype of the Messiah, yes.
But it's silly to say that every facet of David must be reflected in the final Messiah. David was ruddy, must the Messiah be ruddy? David was the youngest of his brothers, must the Messiah? David lived in Bethelehem, must the Messiah?
The answer to all of these questions is obviously, 'no'. David models the Messiah as a righteous king, not by the color of his hair or the place of his birth.

It all seems very odd to me that you expect a Messiah to come from the line of David, yet you reject the prophecies, and precise details, that tell you who to expect. Instead, you say that you'll know him by the peace he brings to earth.
There has no been a single prophecy or detail that I have rejected.
What I reject is an uncritical reading of a passage in order to make it conform with a pre-conceived desire of who the Messiah should be.

Does this mean that your Messiah will come to Israel and automatically be recognised as the Redeemer?
I don't know if you mean the country or the nation, but he probably won't be recognized as the Messiah until he fulfills all the prophecies. That's the only possible way to know.

Does he combine a religious and political role?
Yes.
And are you satisfied that the Messiah will recognise you as a friend?
...what?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think one of the reasons Jews don't accept Christian claims about Jesus and the New Testament is because Jewish people who follow Jesus are ostracized from their family and community.

Not at all. We don't want to end up like the original Jewish Christians who dissapeared 2 generations after they started. The track record for Jews in Christianity is literally horrible. I think that the reason that "some" Christians try to convince Jews to become Christians is because they are not happy about Christianity and they want us Jews to also not be happy.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Last chance... there are deep parallelisms to the Bible to get you thinking.

BTW. I was told earlier by Skywalker that Mormons and JWs are wrong. So, I am bit suspcious of any path being presented on this thread.

Is there something you can provide on this thread to convince me that you are more authoratative then the Christinaity that Skywalker presents? Is it true that Mormons beleive that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Not at all. We don't want to end up like the original Jewish Christians who dissapeared 2 generations after they started. The track record for Jews in Christianity is literally horrible. I think that the reason that "some" Christians try to convince Jews to become Christians is because they are not happy about Christianity and they want us Jews to also not be happy.

Someone once said that those pages of history that Jews have memorized, Christians have torn out of their history books. There's no denying these things occurred, but they were a complete and horrible aberration that, unfortunately, have been used to keep many Jews away from Jesus. Anti Semetism betrays the most fundamental teachings of Jesus. As followers of Jesus, we repudiate these aberrations of history. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach said that Christianity is "a beautiful religion for Christians," but it's just not for Jews. Jesus can't be the Messiah for Christians and not for others. That would be a complete contradiction of all of Jesus' claims. He's either the Messiah of everyone or the Messiah of no one. To say the New Testament is beautiful but Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah-well, it's filled with fabrications and fantasies then. Christians are deluded in believing that he died for the sins of the world and rose from the dead. Either he did or he didn't. Thankfully, over the last century there's been a great recovery of Jews saying, 'I worship the God of Israel, I worship the Messiah of Israel in light of the new covenant, and the Torah is written on my heart.' In fact, many Jews who were secular have become appreciative of their heritage and background because of faith in Jesus. That trite saying-'Jesus made me kosher'-actually has a lot of truth to it. '
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
David is the archetype of the Messiah, yes.
But it's silly to say that every facet of David must be reflected in the final Messiah. David was ruddy, must the Messiah be ruddy? David was the youngest of his brothers, must the Messiah? David lived in Bethelehem, must the Messiah?
The answer to all of these questions is obviously, 'no'. David models the Messiah as a righteous king, not by the color of his hair or the place of his birth.


There has no been a single prophecy or detail that I have rejected.
What I reject is an uncritical reading of a passage in order to make it conform with a pre-conceived desire of who the Messiah should be.


I don't know if you mean the country or the nation, but he probably won't be recognized as the Messiah until he fulfills all the prophecies. That's the only possible way to know.

It says in Isaiah 59:20, [JPS 1985 Edition]
'He shall come as redeemer to Zion,
To those in Jacob who turn back from sin
- declares the LORD.'


It also says in Romans 11:26 [KJV]
'And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a deliverer, and he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:'

In the JPS side-note it says, 'It is the penitent Israelites, not the whole nation, who will enjoy the salvation long predicted and thus far delayed.'

How do you think the Messiah distinguishes between the ungodly in Jacob and the penitent in Israel? What sin is it that Jacob must turn back from?

I think this passage says something useful and relevant: Genesis 32:28, 'And he [the man with whom Jacob had wrestled at Peniel] said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.' [KJV]

Who was the man with whom he wrestled?
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Yes, I had a feeling like you would not want to go through the text in Hebrew from start to finish. To answer your question, as I have said before, it is the Hebrew text only and no translations. So yes, I don't accept interlinears because they are translations.
....
Thus, add this to the list of why Jews don't accept Christian claims about Jesus or the NT.

You dodged my questions and ignored my request.
 
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It says in Isaiah 59:20, [JPS 1985 Edition]
'He shall come as redeemer to Zion,
To those in Jacob who turn back from sin
- declares the LORD.'


It also says in Romans 11:26 [KJV]
'And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a deliverer, and he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:'

In the JPS side-note it says, 'It is the penitent Israelites, not the whole nation, who will enjoy the salvation long predicted and thus far delayed.'

How do you think the Messiah distinguishes between the ungodly in Jacob and the penitent in Israel? What sin is it that Jacob must turn back from?

I think this passage says something useful and relevant: Genesis 32:28, 'And he [the man with whom Jacob had wrestled at Peniel] said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'

Who was the man with whom he wrestled?

I believe Jacob wrestled with Jesus because in the verse about Moses at the burning bush God was described as the angel of the Lord. Jacob wrestling with the angel - Wikipedia

The angel being referred to as a man and God sounds like the angel was Jesus. Angels are never referred to as God, but God is referred to as an angel.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
BTW. I was told earlier by Skywalker that Mormons and JWs are wrong. So, I am bit suspcious of any path being presented on this thread.

Is there something you can provide on this thread to convince me that you are more authoratative then the Christinaity that Skywalker presents? Is it true that Mormons beleive that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?
I can point you to Book of Mormon Central (see knowwhys) and Loading... .

Jesus and Lucifer brothers... I do not know how to answer the question.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe Jacob wrestled with Jesus because in the verse about Moses at the burning bush God was described as the angel of the Lord. Jacob wrestling with the angel - Wikipedia

The angel being referred to as a man and God sounds like the angel was Jesus. Angels are never referred to as God, but God is referred to as an angel.

I agree; it must be the Lord. In Genesis 32:30 [KJV] it says, 'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'

The JPS 1985 Edition says, 'So Jacob named the place Peniel, meaning, "I have seen a divine being face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It says in Isaiah 59:20, [JPS 1985 Edition]
'He shall come as redeemer to Zion,
To those in Jacob who turn back from sin
- declares the LORD.'


It also says in Romans 11:26 [KJV]
'And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a deliverer, and he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:'

In the JPS side-note it says, 'It is the penitent Israelites, not the whole nation, who will enjoy the salvation long predicted and thus far delayed.'

How do you think the Messiah distinguishes between the ungodly in Jacob and the penitent in Israel? What sin is it that Jacob must turn back from?

I think this passage says something useful and relevant: Genesis 32:28, 'And he [the man with whom Jacob had wrestled at Peniel] said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.' [KJV]

Who was the man with whom he wrestled?
I am not going to respond to anything here until you respond to the points I made, or explain how these relate to those.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I agree; it must be the Lord. In Genesis 32:30 [KJV] it says, 'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'

The JPS 1985 Edition says, 'So Jacob named the place Peniel, meaning, "I have seen a divine being face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

I believe that Jacob saw Jesus because nobody can see the Father and live. Exodus 33:20 - Bible Gateway

Jesus said in John 1:18 that no man hath seen God at any time. Bible Gateway passage: John 1:18 - King James Version
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I am not going to respond to anything here until you respond to the points I made, or explain how these relate to those.

I think you're correct to argue that not every aspect of David's life is to be mirrored in the life of the Messiah, but it's clear that there will be similarities, otherwise Ezekiel would not have prophesied the coming Messiah with the words 'David my servant'.

My last point was made in response to your 'what?'. I'm interested to know whether you think of yourself as part of Jacob, or part of Israel.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Really? What about these words?

'And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.'
[Mark 13:1,2]

Prophetic? I would have thought the destruction of the temple would have been of interest to you?
Well, let's see. Are they about Jesus? Yup. But Jesus has no value, so those words have no value. You are trying to use gospel accounts to support the contention that the subject of the gospel account has value. That's circular and useless.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I think what Yeshua is saying in all of Matthew 5 has great value, especially considering that he is upholding the Torah, he's definitely not doing away with it. If you look at the principles in that chapter and all of the NT really, he is not attacking the law, but rather returning the focus to the true intent, which was living in a way that is righteous before YHWH.
OK, think that. Judaism says it has no value.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You think it is bad to leave family members who do not live according to God's will?
No, that's not what I said. See below:
I do think it's wrong to forsake ones commiment to family and children for a hundred-fold reward and eternal life.

Matthew 19:29 promises eternal life and a hundred-fold reward for breaking their commitment to family and children. Jesus is not quoted as appealing to follow the will of God here. In fact he neglects to cite the first few of the Ten Commandments which prohibit serving idols and worshipping other gods. Instead he tempts people with a hundred fold reward and the god-like power of immortality (eternal life)

The Christian bible often uses the promise of eternal life, as a motivator, temptation. To see them look at the lexicon for 'eternal (Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- 71 Occurrences). My personal opinion is that this tactic is very similar to the tactic used by the serpent in Genesis 3:5. The serpent tempts Eve to break her commitment saying: "when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God." The promise of eternal life is the promise to "be like a God". The conclusion I make is that if Eve would have been better off ignoring the serpent, then as Jewish person I am better off ignoring the temptation of eternal life made by Christians and the Christian bible.

In the Torah, the reward for following the commandments is more down to earth. We are not tempted to be like a god. The rewards are described in Deuteronomy 28. The nation will be elevated, our children will thrive, food will be ample, our enemies will be defeated, etc.

If you want to know which I think is better, I think the Torah is better. When the Christian bible offers eternal life it sounds like snake-oil to me.

Take a look at what the Law of Moses says about this:
5. Mo 13:8-12 "If your brother, your mother's son, or your son, or your daughter, or your own wife, or your friend who is like your soul, incites you secretly and says: Let us go and serve other gods, thou shalt not will him, nor hearken unto him; neither shalt thine eye spare him, neither shalt thou have mercy upon him, nor hide him: but thou shalt surely slay him. Thine hand shall be first upon him to slay him, and afterward the hand of all the people; and thou shalt stone him to death. For he hath sought to turn thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear it, and fear, lest any more such iniquity be done in thy midst."

Jesus says: Just leave them.
The law of Moses said: Kill them.

Which is more loving? The grace of Jesus or the fiery law of Moses?

Correction:

Jesus says: Leave them and follow me for your personal gain.
Moses says: Kill them if they secretly incite you to follow other gods and serve them.

You are asking which is more loving?

What Jesus is saying is self-centered and glorifies himself. I suppose that's a version of love.
What Moses is saying is cruel and dreadful certainly not loving in the conventional sense.

But that still doesn't motivate me to accept Jesus or his grace. I simply wouldn't follow this commandment literally. There's at least one other example of a commandment that has never been followed. Instead it is understood to be a commandment to fear God. Even if this commandment is not followed literally, it is clear that the prohibtion against idol worship and serving other gods is tantamount in Judaism. Worshipping a human who is god incarnate is not part of the Jewish religion as evidenced by the verses you brought. Even if God is incarnate in people, trees, the moon, and the stars. In Judaism we are devoted to the supreme God of Gods, the All-mighty creator of Heaven and Earth. We do not worship or serve the others. Doing so is not part of the Torah.

Jesus' grace sounds like a loophole to me. It weakens the relationship that I have with God (Jeremiah 31:36) . It's clear to me that accepting Jesus as savior is prohibited by the Torah which is the revealed expression of God's will for me as a Jewish person.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe that Jacob saw Jesus because nobody can see the Father and live. Exodus 33:20 - Bible Gateway

Jesus said in John 1:18 that no man hath seen God at any time. Bible Gateway passage: John 1:18 - King James Version

John 6:46. 'Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.'

This passage makes me think that only Spirit can see Spirit. Man, with his eyes, cannot see God.

The angel of the LORD appears on a number of occasions [Genesis 22; Exodus 3; Numbers 22; Judges 6; Judges 13; 2 Kings 1 etc.]. I'm a bit reluctant to say that they saw Jesus because I link the name Jesus with the baby born to Mary. I believe, in the cases above, the Spirit of the Father, the Word, came to earth in the form of an angel. What men saw was an angel, speaking and acting with the authority of God. This was the same Spirit, or Word, that brought about Mary's conception, and later anointed Jesus.

Since men cannot see God, God must take a form of some kind in which to make Himself known. At the time of the Exodus from Egypt, God chose to appear in cloud and fire etc. Only in His coming as the Suffering Servant does he appear in flesh and blood. At his coming in glory, I think he'll be recognisable whilst also being incorruptible and spiritual.

Do you think I'm mistaken?
 
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