Any questions about the Jehovah's witness faith?

capumetu · Dec 30, 2020

Twilight Hue said:
Jehovah Witnesses believe they are the only true religion.

What exactly is it, or what quality is it that makes it more true than other comparable religions?

Great question sir. The Bible identifies the people of God. Here are ten passages that should identify who they are beyond any reasonable doubt: One faith Eph 4:5

1. The one faith would worship the God Jehovah exclusively. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you must render sacred service.’” (It was written at Deut 6:13).

2. The one faith will not participate in war. Paul stated: (2 Corinthians 10:3) . . .For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. . .

3. The one faith approaches Jehovah through Jesus, Paul said:
(1 Timothy 2:5) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. . .Jesus said: (John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. . .

4. Jesus said the one faith would be known by the love of its adherents:
(John 13:34, 35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves. . .
It’s adherents would imitate Jesus,
Peter said: (1 Peter 2:21) . . .to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .

5. The one faith will preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, as mankind’s only hope, not a worldly government, Jesus stated:
(John 18:36) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. . . .
He told us to: (Matthew 6:33) 33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you.
Jesus stated the main reason he came to earth: (Luke 4:43) . . .“I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”
He assigned his followers to: (Matthew 28:19) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,. . ., 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.

6. The one faith accepts the Bible as the inspired message of God, Paul said:
(2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God. . .

7. The one faith would appear to be formed in the last days, it’s adherents would be highly educated through instruction, and would live the teachings in their lives: Isaiah wrote: (Isaiah 2:2, 3) . . .In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established . . .And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.

8. The one faith would not set men on high, with religious titles, Jesus said: (Matthew 23:8-10) 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

9. The one faith does not allow unrepentant sinners to remain among them,
Paul stated: (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) . . .I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . .“Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

10. The one faith does not practice interfaith with other “Christian” faiths. All teach the same thing, and have the same line of thought: (2 Cor 6:14) For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have?
(Phil 2:2) make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind.
(1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
Jesus said: (John 17:20) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word. . .in order that they may be one just as we are one.

Love God · Dec 30, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Except for converts, Jesus and his followers were Jewish.
The Jews were given the first choice to join with Jesus.
Then, the way was opened up for the Samaritan people.
Thirdly, the was was opened up for the gentile people of the Nations starting with Cornelius as per Acts of the Apostles 10th chapter.
Christianity started at: Pentecost , as per Acts of the Apostles 2nd chapter.

Cute definition = J.O.Y.
J.ehovah, O.thers, Y.ourself, <-exactly as Jesus taught -> John 4:23-24; John 13:34-35

Yes, Jesus was Not resurrected on the day he died, but his God resurrected Jesus on the third day - Acts of the Apostles 13:30,37; 2:24,32; 3:15

Explain this:

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which kingdom are the Jews asking about? The kingdom of God? The kingdom of heaven? Or the JW’s kingdom?

Joy

Joy is not a cute JW acronym.

“These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I am full of Jesus Christ and his joy.

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Kingdom of God = spiritual

“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Kingdom of heaven = literal place where Jesus resides.

So the bible does differentiate between the kingdoms...

Hmmm.

Oeste · Dec 30, 2020

Neuropteron said:
Hi,
I could not find any statement claiming that the GB was communicating with the dead (or anyone else in heaven) in the W magazine w20070101/The-First-Resurrection-Now-Under-Way.
Maybe you can kindly extrapolate the sentence you are referring to.

Hi @Neuropteron,

I'm not sure how you could have missed them. I've quoted them again below. Note the highlighted items in bold:

Oeste said:
And another angel.—Not the ”voice of the Lord,” mentioned in the preceding chapter, but the corporate body—the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, which Pastor Russel formed to finish his work. This verse shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work. “The WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as His channel through which to make known the Glad Tidings.” (Studies in the Scriptures Vol 7. The Finished Mystery page 144)

Oeste said:
It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John’s thinking by raising a pertinent question… Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communication of divine truth today. For their part, those of the John class on earth got to learn the identity of the great crowd by closely observing what Jehovah was performing in their midst. They were quick to appreciate the dazzling flash of divine light that emblazoned the theocratic firmament in1935, at Jehovah’s due time. (Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand! Revision, Page 125

Oeste said:
The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory. * (Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4) John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.

What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. (The Watchtower 1/1/07 pg.28)

In other words, the heavenly elders are in communication with the earthly elders, as they are all members of the "heavenly" or "John class".

Neuropteron said:
Nonetheless, claims to be communicating witht the ressurected "anointed ones" could not be defined as "communicated with the dead" since these ones are said to be "alive" in heavens, not dead at all.

Are you a JW?

I ask only because you appear to be confusing body with spirit which is unusual.

In necromancy, the deceased’s body is “dead” but their spirit is alive.

That’s the whole idea behind necromancy… the psychic or medium does not communicate with a “dead” spirit but with a spirit that is still living. If they believed that the spirits were dead there would be no communication and no necromancy.

That's also the whole idea behind channeling... obviously they believe these spirits to be alive (more on this below).

Neuropteron said:
Furthermore the article clearly states that the “... the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5. Thus no communication is possible with an unconscious or non-existing one.

Never mind about the question I asked...only a Jehovah Witness believes you can be unconscious and non-existent (two mutually exclusive states) at the same time.

A careful reading of the article shows these elders were resurrected, thus making communication possible in the minds of the Governing Body. In fact it states they were resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest.

Unlike other Watchtower teachings which come and go, this has been a rare consistent teaching of the WT. It was believed that Charles Russel was immediately resurrected upon his death and that he continues to guide “every feature of the Harvest work” from “beyond the veil” as was published in The Finished Mystery.

The link I gave to JW.org shows these resurrected elders may still be responsible for communicating divine truths today. That is, to this current day.

"It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today."

The article specifically states the 24-elders group "...may be involved..." which indicates the Governing Board is simply not sure at times whether their channel of communication is with a resurrected elder or some other source (presumed heavenly). However, as many WT articles attest, you can be assured the Governing Board still receives “flashes of light” and that this "channel of communication" which divulges “divine truths” is getting “brighter and brighter”.

Deeje · Dec 30, 2020

Oeste said:
I am not a JW but I studied and conversed with them, have relatives and friends who are JW's, and have, in the past, attended their meetings. The ability of the GB to possibly communicate with the dead was, is and remains a "current truth" at JW.org (see paragraph 11).

As usual a totally skewed half truth version of what you think we believe.....your ideas are really nothing but lies.

Oeste said:
That’s the whole idea behind necromancy… the psychic or medium does not communicate with a “dead” spirit but with a spirit that is still living. If they believed that the spirits were dead there would be no communication and no necromancy.

That's also the whole idea behind channeling... obviously they believe these spirits to be alive (more on this below).

This is absolute rubbish. We do not believe that the spirits of the dead leave their bodies and go somewhere else to be reunited with their bodies at some future resurrection. That is not a Bible teaching...it is Christendom's teaching. "The dead know nothing"...they can't think, plan or feel anything. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6; 10). All "sleep" in death as Jesus said of his friend Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

But Paul gave us a time when the "dead in Christ" would "rise first". This is a promised resurrection....one of two spoken about in the scriptures. One is to heavenly life for those chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom, and these were to be part of a "first resurrection". These ones have a specific role as "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....
"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (NASB)

No resurrections were to take place until Christ's return. We believe that this occurred in 1914 when the "last days" of the present system began. All the features of the "sign" that Jesus gave concerning his "presence" (not his coming) were to take place in this time period, (Matthew 24:3-14) which we believe is coming to an end very rapidly.

There was to be another resurrection mentioned in John 5:28-29 where Jesus calls all the dead from their graves in a general resurrection, because there are both "righteous and unrighteous" ones called from the same place....their tombs. These return to an earthly life, but those of the "first resurrection" are raised to heaven.
The first group are seen bringing their rulership to the earth...the Bride of Christ...."new Jerusalem".

Revelation 21:2-4...
" And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” (NASB)

Since Christ appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his fellow slaves their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45) this is part of his prophesy on the end times, so those who are resurrected "first" will assist Christ in directing matters on earth while the remaining ones of that "body of Christ" who are still serving him on earth during these "last days". When Christ finally comes as judge, all of his anointed ones will be with him, with those still on earth transformed instantaneously. It has nothing to do with necromancy.

Oeste said:
Never mind about the question I asked...only a Jehovah Witness believes you can be unconscious and non-existent (two mutually exclusive states) at the same time.

What hatefully twisted and ignorant nonsense.

If you ever studied the Bible with JW's you must have had your fingers in your ears.....or else you have a weird method of comprehension. You always seem to hark back to things published 100 years ago......we move on in our understanding....but you knew that....right?

URAVIP2ME · Dec 30, 2020

Love God said:
Explain this:
“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Which kingdom are the Jews asking about? The kingdom of God? The kingdom of heaven? Or the JW’s kingdom?
Joy is not a cute JW acronym.
“These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Kingdom of God = spiritual
“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Kingdom of heaven = literal place where Jesus resides.
So the bible does differentiate between the kingdoms....

Yes, the kingdom would Not immediately or suddenly appear according to Jesus as found at Luke 19:11-15.
We are still waiting for Jesus to take the action as found at Psalms 110.
Christ governs or rules from above - Galatians 4:26 - with ' heavenly Jerusalem ' as now the seat of government.

I find the good news (gospel) about God's kingdom of Matthew 24:14 is the ' thy kingdom come..." as found in the model prayer.
So, what will God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus accomplish according to Daniel 2:34-35; Daniel 2:44 but a real heavenly government over Earth.
This system is on its last legs, so to speak, according to Daniel 2:41-43.
Such fragile feet ( iron mixed with clay ) does Not hold up that political statue.
Thus, we are at that political statue's present day time of the end, or should I say we are at the ' time of the toenails! '

URAVIP2ME · Dec 30, 2020

Interesting verse found at Matthew 24:13 because it is the 'one who endures' to the end is the one who is saved.
Endures faithful to death, or is found enduing faithful at the soon coming glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37

Deeje · Dec 30, 2020

Love God said:
Which kingdom are the Jews asking about? The kingdom of God? The kingdom of heaven? Or the JW’s kingdom?

It was the Kingdom that the Jews were expecting....the one in which their Messiah would reestablish God's theocracy on earth with them as the "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" which was prefigured by the temple and priesthood of ancient times. It basically was a return to the way things were, only bigger......but as history shows, the Jews never lived up to their part of the bargain. They broke their covenant with their God many times, invalidating it.....but God stuck it out and kept disciplining them in order to produce their Messiah...but, true to form, they rejected him.

Jesus came and instituted a "new covenant" (prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32) but only a remnant of the natural Jews were to become a party to it.

Love God said:
Joy is not a cute JW acronym.

Oh, but it fits so nicely....

Love God said:
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Kingdom of God = spiritual

No, sorry, that is not what he said at all. In the original Greek (according to Strongs)....
ἐντός, adverb, ([from ἐν], opposed to ἐκτός), within, inside: with the genitive ἐντὸς ὑμῶν, within you, i. e. in the midst of you".

Luke 17:21 renders that verse....(Sorry but the KJV is a horribly inaccurate translation. Who speaks archaic English anymore?)

"Now He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Analyzing the background of those verses, who was Jesus speaking to? He was addressing the Pharisees of whom he said ...
" You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, by saying:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:7-9)

Was he telling those wicked men that the Kingdom was within them? I hardly think so. (Matthew 23)
What he was telling them was, that the representative King of God's Kingdom was standing there right among them, (in their midst) and they failed to recognize him.

Jesus was crowned as King with no public fanfare or recognition because it took place in heaven and was only "seen" by Daniel in a vision some 2,500 years before it took place. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Jesus gave a "sign" to indicate his return once his Kingship was established.

Love God said:
“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Kingdom of heaven = literal place where Jesus resides.

So the bible does differentiate between the kingdoms...

"Suffer the little children"??? Really.

The Kingdom is a ruling entity...a government of God which will rule the whole world. This is what Daniel saw in his visions. God told him to write everything down but to "seal up the book until the time of the end".....and here we are reading Daniel's prophesies as if they were written yesterday....and we are seeing all the things he wrote taking place. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

In Daniel ch 2 Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream which greatly disturbed him, and he was going to have all his magic-practicing priests put to death for not being able to tell him what the dream was or what it meant. Daniel finally came forward and revealed what Nebuchadnezzar had dreamed, because it was a prophesy from the true God, and Daniel was his representative there in pagan Babylon.

The dream was a march of world powers who had dealings with God's people down through time. Starting with Babylon, the King was told that this great nation would be overthrown by Medo-Persia (Cyrus, who led the invasion was even named as its leader. Isaiah 44:28)
Next was Greece under the command of Alexander the Great, whose empire was divided among his four generals when he died at a relatively young age. All conquering Rome was the next world power but it was never really conquered, but decayed from within due to its own decadence, leaving it vulnerable. Out of the ashes of Rome came Britannia who in the twentieth century allied itself to its estranged 'children'....the USA.

Each of those kingdoms was represented by a different material in descending value. The feet of the image was a mix of iron and clay, which represented mankind under a democracy. The strength of the government being constantly undermined by the will of the people....and we can see where that is headed right now. Democracy has failed like all the rest.

It is in the time of those last kings that God establishes his Kingdom by crushing all human rulership out of existence. and replacing them. (Daniel 2:44) God's Kingdom will then become the world's only government.....forever. This fulfills the words of Jesus when he taught his disciples to pray....."Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Only with the coming of this Kingdom as Daniel portrays it, will God's will ever be done on earth, the way it is done in heaven.
Humans thought that they could rule themselves successfully without God...but he has allowed them all the time they need to prove that they are hopeless without him.

The Kingdom is coming, ready or not. It is a heavenly government with earthly subjects, so the Kingdom has "kings and priests" and the Kingdom of heaven is the earthly domain over which it rules, eventually taking us back to what we lost in Eden.
God always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

Neuropteron · Dec 30, 2020

Oeste said:
Hi @Neuropteron,

I'm not sure how you could have missed them. I've quoted them again below. Note the highlighted items in bold:

In other words, the heavenly elders are in communication with the earthly elders, as they are all members of the "heavenly" or "John class".

Are you a JW?

I ask only because you appear to be confusing body with spirit which is unusual.

In necromancy, the deceased’s body is “dead” but their spirit is alive.

That’s the whole idea behind necromancy… the psychic or medium does not communicate with a “dead” spirit but with a spirit that is still living. If they believed that the spirits were dead there would be no communication and no necromancy.

That's also the whole idea behind channeling... obviously they believe these spirits to be alive (more on this below).

Never mind about the question I asked...only a Jehovah Witness believes you can be unconscious and non-existent (two mutually exclusive states) at the same time.

A careful reading of the article shows these elders were resurrected, thus making communication possible in the minds of the Governing Body. In fact it states they were resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest.

Unlike other Watchtower teachings which come and go, this has been a rare consistent teaching of the WT. It was believed that Charles Russel was immediately resurrected upon his death and that he continues to guide “every feature of the Harvest work” from “beyond the veil” as was published in The Finished Mystery.

The link I gave to JW.org shows these resurrected elders may still be responsible for communicating divine truths today. That is, to this current day.

"It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today."

The article specifically states the 24-elders group "...may be involved..." which indicates the Governing Board is simply not sure at times whether their channel of communication is with a resurrected elder or some other source (presumed heavenly). However, as many WT articles attest, you can be assured the Governing Board still receives “flashes of light” and that this "channel of communication" which divulges “divine truths” is getting “brighter and brighter”.

Hi,
Thank you for your extensive reply. As soon as I can find the time I will verify the accuracy of the quotes you mentioned and get back to you. Also I'm not sure if the highlighted comment you made are from the books of Russel or are an interpretation of the text.

As for the concept of necromancy, my comments were referring to a Bible understanding of the dead, not necessarily a JW doctrine. In the Bible a person is either dead or alive regardless if its in spirit or flesh. The doctrine that a dead person is still alive and active in another form is not supported by the scriptures and is a oxymoron.

Oeste · Dec 30, 2020

Deeje said:
As usual a totally skewed half truth version of what you think we believe.....your ideas are really nothing but lies.

Oh boy, here we go again! @Deeje marching in like gang-busters, ready to mischaracterize any statement and set up strawmen she can attack.

How are you today Deeje? Feeling the usual??

Deeje said:
This is absolute rubbish. We do not believe that the spirits of the dead leave their bodies and go somewhere else to be reunited with their bodies at some future resurrection.

Strawman…I never claimed Witnesses did. Obviously you decided to react rather than read my post.

Deeje said:
That is not a Bible teaching

Well that part we can debate all day long, but let’s hold off on that right now.

I sense you do not understand exactly what I wrote and even less of what you’ve been reading in the Watchtower. So I will ask you a question.

1. Since “flesh and blood” cannot enter heaven, what exactly do you think is resurrected, now that the resurrection is taking place?

The Watchtower teaching is that the elders, or 144,000 are being resurrected and this has occurred since 1918 and is continuing.

It is these resurrected elders that are communicating with the earthly elders @deejay, the same way they did with John, and if you know the answer to question #1 (or had actually read the WT article) then you know it is with the spirit of the elders that the Governing Board communicates.

Necromancy also claims to speak with spirits. The difference or distinction that the WT makes is that this communication is sanctioned by Jehovah because they are His chosen organization, whereas psychics and mediums have no such authorization. It is through this channel that the Governing Board discerns divine truths. Did you think they sit in their chairs, making up divine truths as they go along? Others may think so, but not Jehovah Witnesses!

Since the resurrection has been occurring since 1918 pastor Russell was resurrected shortly after his death. He was then able to facilitate every facet of the earthly harvest with or through the Governing Board. Obviously Pastor Russel cannot do this if he has ceased to exist, and it is just as obvious that in order to continue working “beyond the veil” that he must have been resurrected.

These are Watchtower statements and NOT Oeste’s lies. For once, please read the WT articles and what I post more carefully before you run off into the sunset (as you eventually do) shouting “Lies and deception!”.

To recap, this is not some vile, hateful speech on my part; it is current truth on JW.org. In fact, it is past truth as well. It is one of those rare instances where past truth stays true. I know JW’s are not used to old truths staying true, but apparently that happens on occasion.

Deeje said:
Since Christ appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his fellow slaves their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45) this is part of his prophesy on the end times, so those who are resurrected "first" will assist Christ in directing matters on earth while the remaining ones of that "body of Christ" who are still serving him on earth during these "last days".

Uhmmm, isn’t that what I’ve been stating? So why did you call the whole thing a lie just a few moments ago? It’s like your left hand doesn’t understand what you’re right hand is doing.

These heavenly resurrected elders assist Christ by communicating truths to the elders on earth. These elders are spirts, are they not? So the earthly elders receive these communications through the channel, and it is sanctioned by Jehovah and his Son, the Christ, which is exactly what I’ve been saying all along, which is what the WT has been saying all along, and to which you now arrive reluctantly.

Remember Deeje, it is the WATCHTOWER, not Oeste that specifically tells us these elders communicated with John directly while he was still on earth, thus heavenly elders are able to do the same with the Governing Board.

John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.

11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise? Source (see paragraph 10, 11

This is not a lie Deeje, and if you are actually a JW as you claim you are, I don't understand why you think it would be. Don't you read the WT articles? Even if you don't remember them, you can still check the link.

It was a nice try though (loved the spin) but’s its best to stick to what the WT actually teaches.

Of course, if you have some evidence that the heavenly elders no longer communicate with the Governing Board , or if the Governing Board has abandoned the channel as a means of communication, or if the resurrection is no longer taking place, please feel free to post it here.

Otherwise, despite your undocumented protests to the contrary, it was and still is “current truth”.

Oeste · Dec 30, 2020

Deeje said:
All the features of the "sign" that Jesus gave concerning his "presence" (not his coming) were to take place in this time period, (Matthew 24:3-14) which we believe is coming to an end very rapidly.

This makes no sense.

How can their be a "presence" unless Christ has come? These are mutually inclusive events. You don't get one without the other.

Oeste said:
Never mind about the question I asked...only a Jehovah Witness believes you can be unconscious and non-existent (two mutually exclusive states) at the same time.

Deeje said:
What hatefully twisted and ignorant nonsense.

If you ever studied the Bible with JW's you must have had your fingers in your ears.....or else you have a weird method of comprehension. You always seem to hark back to things published 100 years ago......we move on in our understanding....but you knew that....right?

What misconception are you spouting now?

This is CURRENT truth at JW.org.

The dead cease to exist and are unconscious. BOTH teachings are on JW.org. WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS NUMEROUS TIMES BEFORE Deeje. The two are mutually exclusive:

5 What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit. Source

The dead are unconscious.

The Bible says that the dead “are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) At death we pass, not into another plane of existence or thinking, but into nonexistence. The teaching that we have an immortal soul that survives after our body dies does not come from the Bible. (Ezekiel 18:4) Thus, any memories from a near-death experience cannot be glimpses of heaven, hell, or the afterlife. Source

Rather than spout that I'm posting "hatefully twisted and ignorant nonsense" @Deeje, why not try READING your publications for a change. Then you can respond to me intelligently rather than vindictively.

It's more conducive to conversation.

Oeste · Dec 30, 2020

Neuropteron said:
Thank you for your extensive reply. As soon as I can find the time I will verify the accuracy of the quotes you mentioned and get back to you. Also I'm not sure if the highlighted comment you made are from the books of Russel or are an interpretation of the text.

Thanks @Neuropteron!

I believe the highlights are actually from Russel and not an interpretation of what he wrote. As far as I know, these quotes were never later refuted by the Watchtower.

Deeje · Dec 31, 2020

Oeste said:
Oh boy, here we go again! @Deeje marching in like gang-busters, ready to mischaracterize any statement and set up strawmen she can attack.

How are you today Deeje? Feeling the usual??

Yes, especially after one of your "know it all, know nothing" posts. No one quite twists the truth about JW's like you do, Oeste...you must be such a joy to your JW relatives.

You mischaracterize us better than anyone I know on these forums......not going there again. I will just address issues if you misrepresent them, but not you.....its a complete waste of time.

Love God · Dec 31, 2020

Deeje said:
Yes he was....he was sent only to the Jews and he was Jewish for his whole earthly life, under law and preaching his message to an incorrigible, apostate nation....but not to the Pharisees....only to the “lost sheep” whom they had neglected. He found his disciples among those whom the shepherds drove out by their condemnation and rigid adherence to their interpretation of the Law. (Talmud)

Yes, that is why it took courage to follow Jesus who was viewed as an apostate to Judaism. It required God to open spiritual eyes to see the truth that was right in front of their noses. We today are in a similar position, as we see first century Judaism and Christendom to be mirror images of one another. We too have to separate from another apostate religious system. (Revelation 18:4-5)

Christianity had to separate from Judaism because Christ’s teachings would not allow them to remain in a spiritually unclean condition, and the Jewish hatred of them soon forced the issue. Jesus’ denunciation of the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23 left his disciples in no doubt about how he and his Father felt about those leaders, and what his disciples needed to do.

Initially they were simply called “The Way” because it was a different path and a way out of that apostate religious system. (Hebrews 8:7-13)

We see Christianity as becoming footstep followers of Christ in every way possible. We adhere to his teachings and shun the beliefs and practices of Christendom because we have been called out of that travesty. She is part of “Babylon the great” which we believe is the devil’s world empire of false religion. We are commanded to “get out” of there before God destroys it. (Revelation 18:4-5)

Who

Deeje said:
It was the Kingdom that the Jews were expecting....the one in which their Messiah would reestablish God's theocracy on earth with them as the "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" which was prefigured by the temple and priesthood of ancient times. It basically was a return to the way things were, only bigger......but as history shows, the Jews never lived up to their part of the bargain. They broke their covenant with their God many times, invalidating it.....but God stuck it out and kept disciplining them in order to produce their Messiah...but, true to form, they rejected him.

Jesus came and instituted a "new covenant" (prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32) but only a remnant of the natural Jews were to become a party to it.

Oh, but it fits so nicely....

No, sorry, that is not what he said at all. In the original Greek (according to Strongs)....
ἐντός, adverb, ([from ἐν], opposed to ἐκτός), within, inside: with the genitive ἐντὸς ὑμῶν, within you, i. e. in the midst of you".

Luke 17:21 renders that verse....(Sorry but the KJV is a horribly inaccurate translation. Who speaks archaic English anymore?)

"Now He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Analyzing the background of those verses, who was Jesus speaking to? He was addressing the Pharisees of whom he said ...
" You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, by saying:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:7-9)

Was he telling those wicked men that the Kingdom was within them? I hardly think so. (Matthew 23)
What he was telling them was, that the representative King of God's Kingdom was standing there right among them, (in their midst) and they failed to recognize him.

Jesus was crowned as King with no public fanfare or recognition because it took place in heaven and was only "seen" by Daniel in a vision some 2,500 years before it took place. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Jesus gave a "sign" to indicate his return once his Kingship was established.

"Suffer the little children"??? Really.

The Kingdom is a ruling entity...a government of God which will rule the whole world. This is what Daniel saw in his visions. God told him to write everything down but to "seal up the book until the time of the end".....and here we are reading Daniel's prophesies as if they were written yesterday....and we are seeing all the things he wrote taking place. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

In Daniel ch 2 Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream which greatly disturbed him, and he was going to have all his magic-practicing priests put to death for not being able to tell him what the dream was or what it meant. Daniel finally came forward and revealed what Nebuchadnezzar had dreamed, because it was a prophesy from the true God, and Daniel was his representative there in pagan Babylon.

The dream was a march of world powers who had dealings with God's people down through time. Starting with Babylon, the King was told that this great nation would be overthrown by Medo-Persia (Cyrus, who led the invasion was even named as its leader. Isaiah 44:28)
Next was Greece under the command of Alexander the Great, whose empire was divided among his four generals when he died at a relatively young age. All conquering Rome was the next world power but it was never really conquered, but decayed from within due to its own decadence, leaving it vulnerable. Out of the ashes of Rome came Britannia who in the twentieth century allied itself to its estranged 'children'....the USA.

Each of those kingdoms was represented by a different material in descending value. The feet of the image was a mix of iron and clay, which represented mankind under a democracy. The strength of the government being constantly undermined by the will of the people....and we can see where that is headed right now. Democracy has failed like all the rest.

It is in the time of those last kings that God establishes his Kingdom by crushing all human rulership out of existence. and replacing them. (Daniel 2:44) God's Kingdom will then become the world's only government.....forever. This fulfills the words of Jesus when he taught his disciples to pray....."Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Only with the coming of this Kingdom as Daniel portrays it, will God's will ever be done on earth, the way it is done in heaven.
Humans thought that they could rule themselves successfully without God...but he has allowed them all the time they need to prove that they are hopeless without him.

The Kingdom is coming, ready or not. It is a heavenly government with earthly subjects, so the Kingdom has "kings and priests" and the Kingdom of heaven is the earthly domain over which it rules, eventually taking us back to what we lost in Eden.
God always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

Does the NWT contain errors?

Love God · Dec 31, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, the kingdom would Not immediately or suddenly appear according to Jesus as found at Luke 19:11-15.
We are still waiting for Jesus to take the action as found at Psalms 110.
Christ governs or rules from above - Galatians 4:26 - with ' heavenly Jerusalem ' as now the seat of government.

I find the good news (gospel) about God's kingdom of Matthew 24:14 is the ' thy kingdom come..." as found in the model prayer.
So, what will God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus accomplish according to Daniel 2:34-35; Daniel 2:44 but a real heavenly government over Earth.
This system is on its last legs, so to speak, according to Daniel 2:41-43.
Such fragile feet ( iron mixed with clay ) does Not hold up that political statue.
Thus, we are at that political statue's present day time of the end, or should I say we are at the ' time of the toenails! '

Let me ask you this.

If the Jews are looking for a kingdom, is it a JW kingdom?

I see ‘Kingdom Hall of JW’ on many of the JW buildings.

Is the NWT error free?

I appreciate your patience. I have not had the pleasure of engaging with a JW. I think I am the only person in which a JW refused to come into my home after I invited them... true story... lol.

Joy

“All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:8-9‬ ‭KJV

Oeste · Dec 31, 2020

Oeste said:
How are you today Deeje? Feeling the usual??

Deeje said:
Yes, especially after one of you "know it all, know nothing" posts.

Lol, I think the same when I read some of your posts. Does this make us two peas in a pod?

Deeje said:
No one quite twists the truth about JW's like you do, Oeste

Then tell the readers, exactly, where I "took that left turn at Albuquerque" or where my comments went off the "deep end".

Deeje said:
...you must be such a joy to your JW relatives.

Thank you Deeje, they are a joy to me as I am to them.

I spent an entire week with my cousins and members of several congregations (about 19 in all) at a resort. I was only one of two or three non-JW's there. We had a great time. We prayed together, ate together, spent time together, talked together (rather that at each other), smiled, laughed and had fun together. Unfortunately Covid prevented us from repeating this year.

Deeje said:
You mischaracterize us better than anyone I know on these forums

Lol, I think the same when I read some of your posts concerning Christians and churches. Does this make us doubly two peas in a pod??

Deeje said:
......not going there again. I will just address issues if you misrepresent them, but not you

EXCELLENT @Deeje!

This is all I ask. Address the issues, especially if I "misrepresent" them. Leave me out of it. In return, although I cannot recall ever doing so, I will not direct at you any of the sinister adjectives (ignorant, vile, hateful, etc.) you hurled at me.

In short, we agree to attack assertions, rather than the asserter.

Sounds fair to me.

Deeje said:
.....its a complete waste of time.

Yes, I agree personal attacks on this forum are a complete waste of time and do little to answer any questions raised.

In the meantime my assertions are still out there and they're backed by WT articles which you claim misrepresent the Watchtower. Seems to me there should be plenty of low hanging fruit for you to pick from, especially if they're "mischaracterizations". Feel free to grab one and rip it apart. It may enlighten me, our readers, and who knows? As a result you may even feel better about our conversation afterwards.

Remember @Deeje, agreement is not always possible but discussion always is.

Have a great New Year!

~Oeste

paarsurrey · Dec 31, 2020

capumetu said:
I am one of Jehovah's witnesses, just recently started posting here, am still learning how this site works, so I apologize if I am not quick on the response. I will answer all questions about my faith to the best of my ability, and I monitor this site every morning. Feel free to be honest, I do not get offended.

JW's are as wrong as say the Catholics and or Protestants or other denominations that follow the Pauline Christianity instead of the Jesus' good and reasonable teachings, I understand, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Deeje · Dec 31, 2020

Love God said:
Who

A more specific question would be appreciated.....Who...what?
Are you asking who "Babylon the great" is? ...or something else?

Does the NWT contain errors?

We don't believe so, but if you would like to discuss any that you think are there, I am happy to do so.

paarsurrey · Dec 31, 2020

Deeje said:
A more specific question would be appreciated.....Who...what?
Are you asking who "Babylon the great" is? ...or something else?
We don't believe so, but if you would like to discuss any that you think are there, I am happy to do so.

The errors in the NT Gospels have occurred very naturally, please. NT Gospels are, as I understand :

not written by innocent Jesus himself, though Jesus was a literate person. Right friend, please?
Jesus did not dictate them to any person. Right friend, please?
The sinful scribes/narrators were not eye-witnesses of the events. Right friend, please?
The sinful scribes/narrators were habitual exaggerators of the accounts. Right friend, please?

Hence, the errors in the NT Gospels. Right friend, please?

Regards

Deeje · Dec 31, 2020

paarsurrey said:
JW's are as wrong as say the Catholics and or Protestants or other denominations that follow the Pauline Christianity instead of the Jesus' good and reasonable teachings, I understand, please. Right friend, please?

What makes you think Paul had a different "Christianity" to what Jesus taught? He was instructed by the same teacher as Jesus' other apostles. He was accepted by them, so why should we reject him. His writings make up a large part of our scripture. :shrug:

Neuropteron · Dec 31, 2020

Oeste said:
Hi @Neuropteron,

Hi Oesste,

You highlighted the following:

"This verse shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work." Vol7 of the Finished Mystery p144.
Your quote is correct.
However your interpretation of its meaning is not.

The reason it cannot refer to communication with a resurrected person is that the concept of Necromancy as you defined it is something repulsive and condemned by Jehovah.
since Necromancy is "a form of divination in which the practitioner seeks to summon "operative spirits" of the dead for multiple purposes, from spiritual protection to the acquisition of wisdom. The word necromancy derives from the Greek νεκρός (nekrós), "dead," and μαντεία (manteía), "divination." However, since the Middle Ages, necromancy has come to be associated more broadly with black magic and demon-summoning."(Wiki)

The scriptures clearly states that the only person Christians should communicate with is Jehovah through the mediation of Jesus Christ. There is no exception to this law and is something that JW follow rigourously.

Perhaps a previous comment in this same book shows that the Great Company is working for the furtherance of kingdom interest:
"The Great Company will be very enthusiastic workers on the other side of the veil"p135

This however does in no way mean that the directive of God concerning communication are ignored. "working in every feature, would naturally mean working in accordance to Gods direction and will.

Any questions about the Jehovah's witness faith?

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