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God in sikhism more loving than Christian God

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@sojourner and @Meandflower

Here's an interesting snippet from the church father Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253) (himself a believer in reincarnation), writing about an early fellow Egyptian Christian preacher called Basilides (taught from 117 to 138 AD) who believed in rebirth and conducted his own exegesis of Romans 7:9, into which he read and imputed transmigration of souls:


Origen, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans 1015B

Indeed, the Apostle (Paul) has said, "I was once alive apart from the law," [Rom 7:9] at some time or other. That is (Paul means), before I came into this body, I lived in the kind of body that is not subject to the law: the body of a domestic animal or a bird.

I can actually understand why Basilides (and perhaps Origen himself) interpreted the verse in question in this way, given that St. Paul literally does write: "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived".

Most Christian commentators interpret this as a mere rhetorical point but I can see how an early believer in rebirth, like Basilides at the dawn of the second century, could read it as Paul implying that he had been 'alive' in a past life that was "apart from the law": that is not Jewish and pre-Mosaic covenant (or possibly not even human as Basilides theorised!), then the 'commandment' came with the Sinai covenant and he was born as Saul the Pharisee.

In Origen’s extant writings (and let us note that he is one of Christianity's greatest systematic theologians), we find this:


Origen against Celsus 128


Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions? It is probable, therefore, that this soul also, which conferred more benefit by its residence in the flesh than that of many men (to avoid prejudice, I do not say "all"), stood in need of a body not only superior to others, but invested with all excellent qualities.

(Against Celsus)​


And again Origen's own work, De Principiis:


there were certain causes of prior existence, in consequence of which the souls, before their birth in the body, contracted a certain amount of guilt in their sensitive nature, or in their movements, on account of which they have been judged worthy by Divine Providence of being placed in this condition. ... And it is probable that these movements furnish grounds for merit even before they do anything in this world. (De Principiis III.iii.5)

the cause of each one's actions is a pre-existing one; and then every one, according to his deserts, is made by God either a vessel unto honour or dishonour. (De Principiis III.i.20)

we are of opinion that, seeing the soul, as we have frequently said, is immortal and eternal, it is possible that, in the many and endless periods of duration in the immeasurable and different worlds, it may descend from the highest good to the lowest evil, or be restored from the lowest evil to the highest good. (De Principiis III.i.21)

Whilst the second set of quotes from De Principiis could be understood purely as references to his doctrine of pre-existence of souls, what he says is fully conformable with a belief in transmigration of souls and, indeed, St. Jerome explicitly attributes this to Origen in his letter to Avitus, section 7 (also in Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers), in which Jerome quotes the (now lost) Greek text of De Principiis:


And again: "but perhaps this coarse and earthly body ought to be described as mist and darkness; for at the end of this world and when it becomes necessary to pass into another, the like darkness will lead to the like physical birth." In speaking thus he clearly pleads for the transmigration of souls as taught by Pythagoras and Plato.

Similarly, section 15 of the same letter of Jerome, again quoting Origen:


The following passage is a convincing proof that he holds the transmigration of souls and annihilation of bodies. "If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it; then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things, their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing."

As for Valentinus (c. AD 100 – c. 160) again, who nearly became Bishop of Rome, the fourth-century church father Epiphanius informs us that he taught reincarnation:


Valentinus and Colarbasus, and all gnostics and Manichaeans, claim that there is a reincarnation of souls, and that there are transmigrations of the soul of (spiritually) ignorant persons – as they themselves call them.... They say that the soul returns and is reembodied in each of the animals until it recognizes (the truth), and is thus cleansed and set free, and departs to the heavens

(Epiphanius, Panarion)

Valentinus's disciple, Theodotus, likewise taught as follows in regards to the liberating power of Christian baptism, by alluding to knowledge of prior lives/births accruing from it:


Theodotus (2nd century, Excerpta ex Theodoto 78)​


78 Until baptism, they say, Fate is real, but after it the astrologists are no longer right. But it is not only the washing of baptism that is liberating, but the knowledge of who we were, and what we have become, where we were or where we were placed, whither we hasten, from what we are redeemed, what birth is and what rebirth.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
God in sikhism seems more loving than the Christian God. In sikhism God give his children many chances to learn and grow because sikhism believe in reincarnation.
But in Christianity God give his children only one lifetime and if you fail you are sentenced to eternal hell or annihilation.

So the sikhism God is uconditional loving, but the Christian God is not...

What do you think about what i wrote now? Some thoughts?
The Christian God didn't make death. It happens because of sin. He wants to absolve death and eventually is going to.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
"I have hope toward God [...] that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." Acts 24:15

The unrighteous will have an opportunity to progress to perfection after they are resurrected, but God calls to all to sincerely seek him now: "Search for Jehovah, you people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near" (Isaiah 55:6.) because at Armagedon God will not prolong the existance of those he judges to be incorrigible.

In the resurection those who previously did their utmost to search for and practice Gods ways and righteousness will have an easier time progressing to spiritual perfection whereas for those who were previously unrighteous will be judged by their actions during an educational and readjustment period for them, which the Bible reveals not all will choose to accept. (John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20: 7-9)

Animals are guided by instinct, they can cause no ethical harm, they are not free agents, whereas humans created in God's likeness have been given a choice, one that current imperfection makes difficult. Nevertheless God's inspired direction is simple and completely trustworthy in comparison to the spiritual concepts of men.

Yaweh himself stated to Isaiah directly:

"For the thoughts of [...] people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways" is the utterance of Jehovah "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" Isaiah 55: 6-9

The divinly inspired word of God reveals that his love and power is balanced by wisdom and justice. If Jehovah (Yahweh) did not apply divine justice the wicked would eradicate the meek and righteous. Psalm 140:1-13
Imperfection was not God's purpose or his creation. (Genesis 1:31)

Likewise individuals presently have a choice to either follow the easy path of the majority or to exert themselves to seek and apply God's standards of justice to qualify for endless life. Standards which he follows himself. Matthew 7:13,14
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
Yes I agree with you about God. There are many paths to God. All religions points to the same Source, God.

Yes sikhs seems more loving.

It is frustrating Christianity do not believe in reincarnation. Without it God seems less loving.

Imho, reincarnation was a integral part of early christianity.

Just as the Ebionites insisted strictly on a vegetarian diet, the early Christian gnostic sects as well as Origen also taught about the concept of reincarnation.

It is quite possible that reincarnation as a teaching was there in the early christian scriptures, which were possibly edited out by the romans in the councils of Nicea and Constantinople as it conflicted with their own ideas and sensibilities about spirituality. St. Jerome had criticized Origen's views on reincarnation in his writings.

The tampering and editing of the christian scriptures by the romans to suit their ideas and sensibilities of spirituality and obedience to the roman state, when they finally adopted Christianity after centuries of brutal persecution of christians, could also be a reason for the seeming incoherence of Christian scriptures as viewed at present by some.


Here is an article on reincarnation in early christianity by the theosophical society...

https://www.theosophical.org/files/resources/articles/ReincarnationChristianity.pdf
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
From what I know, and I could well be wrong...

The problem with reincarnation is that it is tied to the caste system. In the caste system, if you do good you get reincarnated into a higher caste. If not, down you go.

There are monotheistic sects in India believing in reincarnation like the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, Sikhism, Arya Samaj, Kabir Panthis. All these sects reject caste system while at the same time believing in reincarnation.

Buddhism and Jainism too believe in a reincarnating entity and soul respectively, but do not have any caste system within them.

The caste system is a manmade custom similar to feudalism that has no basis in the Vedas, and which continues just out of force of obsolete tradition.
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
Also, how is reincarnation - potentially millions of them - more merciful and "loving" than God's (Yahweh's) grace, which is given to us even though we don't even deserve it? God desperately wants us to know him and live kindly, to glorify him and love him and our neighbours. We don't have to jump through hoops, settle some nebulous cosmic bank account (karma), or scale some ladder of reincarnations before we can be in His presence forever.

Sikhi teaches that Sikhs should aim for this presence in the here-and-now. The idea of reincarnation is a cop-out in relation to this Very Important Aim.

Edit: Sikhi talks about heaven and hell, as well as reincarnation, mainly due to the cultures it was talking to, namely people from Hindu and Islamic backgrounds.

Edit: This supports your point insofar as God according to Sikhi is equally critical of the ideas of heaven\hell and reincarnation. The Ik Onkar is "loving" (by a human standard) because it offers immediate union with Itself, not because it allegedly affords "millions of attempts".
 
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Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
God in sikhism seems more loving than the Christian God. In sikhism God give his children many chances to learn and grow because sikhism believe in reincarnation.
But in Christianity God give his children only one lifetime and if you fail you are sentenced to eternal hell or annihilation.

So the sikhism God is uconditional loving, but the Christian God is not...

What do you think about what i wrote now? Some thoughts?

LDS Christians don't believe in hell for unbelievers, just for totally evil people and the devil.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It depends on how you lived your life. If you was a very bad person you can be reincarnated as an animal. How many times you get reincarnated also depends on how good you was
That's a very generalized answer. Can you be more specific, or are you just guessing?
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Judaism believes in heaven, hell and reincarnation.
especially when Judaism also believes in reincarnation

Some Jews believe in reincarnation. Not the main-stream. For the vast majority such beliefs are, as Saadiah wrote c ~900:


What Judaism Says About Reincarnation | My Jewish Learning

Yet I must say that I have found certain people, who call themselves Jews, professing the doctrine of metempsychosis
...
Many of them would even go so far as to assert that the spirit of a human being might enter into the body of a beast or that of a beast into the body of a human being, and other such nonsense and stupidities.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
There are monotheistic sects in India believing in reincarnation like the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, Sikhism, Arya Samaj, Kabir Panthis. All these sects reject caste system while at the same time believing in reincarnation.

Buddhism and Jainism too believe in a reincarnating entity and soul respectively, but do not have any caste system within them.

The caste system is a manmade custom similar to feudalism that has no basis in the Vedas, and which continues just out of force of obsolete tradition.


It depends on how you lived your life. If you was a very bad person you can be reincarnated as an animal.

Hmm.


@ajay0, I'll pose to you the same questions I posed to @Meandflower
So when you get reincarnated, do you come back born into a higher economic level and/or a better family or is it just another roll of the dice?​

How many times does one get reincarnated or is it just a roll of the dice?​
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Hmm.


@ajay0, I'll pose to you the same questions I posed to @Meandflower
So when you get reincarnated, do you come back born into a higher economic level and/or a better family or is it just another roll of the dice?​

How many times does one get reincarnated or is it just a roll of the dice?​

It depends on your karma or actions. You sow what you reap.

Those who have done good or meritorious karmas will be reborn into better situations and circumstances or with better health and abilities.

The obverse is the same too.

Obviously nature has not made everyone equal. There are some born healthy and live long, while others are born with handicaps or die of disease or accident at a very young age. Some are born poverty stricken and rise to wealth and affluence while others are born with great wealth and squander them with poor abilities.

It all boils down to karma of past lives. Realising this one must endeavor to do good at present to create a prosperous future.




Here is an article on Karma by Sister Mohini Panjabi of the Prajapita Brahmakumaris which can help frame a positive understanding of karma...


Brahma Kumaris - Karma


To fully participate in life is to become fully awake to the reality that each action has an effect. Every movement counts. Each thought rebounds. In contemplation, we witness how each act sets off ‘waves' that will strike some distant ‘shore' and reverberate back into our life.

The world is an echo chamber. Everything we hear is an echo of our own voice bouncing back onto our eardrums. Each movement and event is a rebound from the past. Everything.

Our universe is a hall of mirrors; each moment a reflection of an earlier scene or interaction; each love, a reflection of self-respect. Which means, of course, that each moment is a unique opportunity to avoid doing anything that will bring us future pain and, instead, sow a seed that will bring us the sweetest of fruits. ~ Sister Mohini Panjabi ,Prajapita Brahmakumaris
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It depends on your karma or actions. You sow what you reap.

Those who have done good or meritorious karmas will be reborn into better situations and circumstances or with better health and abilities.
...
It all boils down to karma of past lives. Realising this one must endeavor to do good at present to create a prosperous future.

So, someone born into poverty as a cripple who cannot walk is the reincarnation of a really bad person. These persons should not be pitied or helped. Rather, they should be ridiculed and ostracized because of what they did in their past life.

Interesting concept.


If I accepted that, I should have to wonder about how bad little children with cancer must have been in their past life. Do you see these children and go: Yeah - you finally got what you deserve?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
So, someone born into poverty as a cripple who cannot walk is the reincarnation of a really bad person. These persons should not be pitied or helped. Rather, they should be ridiculed and ostracized because of what they did in their past life.

Interesting concept.

Incidentally, or bizarrely enough, the very scene you describe above - someone born a poor cripple, with other people questioning if some condition of sin before his birth was to blame for this - was something that Jesus directly condemns in the Gospel of John, in relation to a man blind from birth:


Healing the man blind from birth - Wikipedia


According to the Gospel of John, 9:1–12,[1] Jesus saw a man who had been blind since birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

Jesus replied:

Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Here is an article on Karma by Sister Mohini Panjabi of the Prajapita Brahmakumaris which can help frame a positive understanding of karma...

To fully participate in life is to become fully awake to the reality that each action has an effect. Every movement counts. Each thought rebounds. In contemplation, we witness how each act sets off ‘waves' that will strike some distant ‘shore' and reverberate back into our life.

The world is an echo chamber. Everything we hear is an echo of our own voice bouncing back onto our eardrums. Each movement and event is a rebound from the past. Everything.

Our universe is a hall of mirrors; each moment a reflection of an earlier scene or interaction; each love, a reflection of self-respect. Which means, of course, that each moment is a unique opportunity to avoid doing anything that will bring us future pain and, instead, sow a seed that will bring us the sweetest of fruits. ~ Sister Mohini Panjabi ,Prajapita Brahmakumaris​
Brahma Kumaris - Karma

It's ramblings like that that remind me to be thankful that I never got sucked up into religious/psychic/spiritual nonsense.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Incidentally, or bizarrely enough, the very scene you describe above - someone born a poor cripple, with other people questioning if some condition of sin before his birth was to blame for this - was something that Jesus directly condemns in the Gospel of John, in relation to a man blind from birth:


Healing the man blind from birth - Wikipedia


According to the Gospel of John, 9:1–12,[1] Jesus saw a man who had been blind since birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

Jesus replied:

Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him
Uh huh.

Original sin - Wikipedia

Catholicism

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.

Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").[66]

St. Anselm writes: "The sin of Adam was one thing but the sin of children at their birth is quite another, the former was the cause, the latter is the effect."[67] In a child original sin is distinct from the fault of Adam, it is one of its effects. The effects of Adam's sin according to the Catholic Encyclopedia are:

  1. Death and Suffering: "One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul."
  2. Concupiscence or Inclination to sin. Baptism erases original sin but the inclination to sin remains.
  3. The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us. Baptism confers original sanctifying grace, lost through the Adam's sin, thus eliminating original sin and any personal sin.[65]

So, except for Baptised Catholics, we still all are under the doom and gloom of Original Sin.

So, if we see a serial killer who is a Muslim or Hindu or atheist, we know the cause is Original Sin. If the cause of his badness is Original Sin, we shouldn't be too hard on him.

However, if we see a serial killer who is a Baptised Christian, we know the cause is not Original Sin. The cause of his badness comes from within him and he should be treated harshly. Oh wait, his Baptism eliminated his personal sin.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Uh huh.

Original sin - Wikipedia

Catholicism

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.

Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").[66]

St. Anselm writes: "The sin of Adam was one thing but the sin of children at their birth is quite another, the former was the cause, the latter is the effect."[67] In a child original sin is distinct from the fault of Adam, it is one of its effects. The effects of Adam's sin according to the Catholic Encyclopedia are:

  1. Death and Suffering: "One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul."
  2. Concupiscence or Inclination to sin. Baptism erases original sin but the inclination to sin remains.
  3. The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us. Baptism confers original sanctifying grace, lost through the Adam's sin, thus eliminating original sin and any personal sin.[65]

So, except for Baptised Catholics, we still all are under the doom and gloom of Original Sin.

So, if we see a serial killer who is a Muslim or Hindu or atheist, we know the cause is Original Sin. If the cause of his badness is Original Sin, we shouldn't be too hard on him.

However, if we see a serial killer who is a Baptised Christian, we know the cause is not Original Sin. The cause of his badness comes from within him and he should be treated harshly. Oh wait, his Baptism eliminated his personal sin.

You think to much. no one thinks the way you wrote now
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
So, someone born into poverty as a cripple who cannot walk is the reincarnation of a really bad person. These persons should not be pitied or helped. Rather, they should be ridiculed and ostracized because of what they did in their past life.

Interesting concept.


If I accepted that, I should have to wonder about how bad little children with cancer must have been in their past life. Do you see these children and go: Yeah - you finally got what you deserve?

Well.. this is the dark side of reincarnation
 

ecco

Veteran Member
... was something that Jesus directly condemns in the Gospel of John, in relation to a man blind from birth:

Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him

So, God made blind infants so we could all see His Great Glory. I guess that's also true for those born with defective hearts and malformed bones. How great his glory when a child is born with two heads.
 
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