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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The details are not different to the degree that they would be mutually exclusive. That would make them self-contradictions. Do the narratives of Jesus’ birth contradict each other? | GotQuestions.org

Similar to the prophecies in the Tanakh, the fact that you can squint and turn your head sideways and try to find a way that the texts cohere does not mean that they actually do. They describe completely different sets of events.

In Matthew, the wise men visit Jesus at his house in Bethlehem, because that's where they lived, and they only moved to Nazareth after fleeing temporarily to Egypt until after Herod died.

In Luke, the family lived in Nazareth to start with but temporarily traveled to Bethlehem to complete a census, where Jesus was born, and immediately went back to Nazareth after his circumcision.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Similar to the prophecies in the Tanakh, the fact that you can squint and turn your head sideways and try to find a way that the texts cohere does not mean that they actually do. They describe completely different sets of events.

In Matthew, the wise men visit Jesus at his house in Bethlehem, because that's where they lived, and they only moved to Nazareth after fleeing temporarily to Egypt until after Herod died.

In Luke, the family lived in Nazareth to start with but temporarily traveled to Bethlehem to complete a census, where Jesus was born, and immediately went back to Nazareth after his circumcision.

Why do the differing details about Nazareth and Bethlehem make a difference in terms of the message? Christians and Jews disagree about Jesus being the Messiah, not about the name Yeshua.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So by "need" you did not mean "need." Mkay.

It wasn't the best word to use. If someone says God needs you, it's either a miswording or not the most accurate way to word things. It means that God wants you to do something, but in an important way.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do the differing details about Nazareth and Bethlehem make a difference in terms of the message? Christians and Jews disagree about Jesus being the Messiah, not about the name Yeshua.

The differing details reflect the fact that the entire alleged incident is suspect to begin with. If you claim I murdered someone, and someone else claims I murdered someone, but upon investigation your two accounts of how I killed the person completely differ, that casts quite serious doubt on the entire idea that I'm guilty.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The differing details reflect the fact that the entire alleged incident is suspect to begin with. If you claim I murdered someone, and someone else claims I murdered someone, but upon investigation your two accounts of how I killed the person completely differ, that casts quite serious doubt on the entire idea that I'm guilty.

Luke not mentioning their flight to Egypt doesn't mean that he disagreed with Matthew. Do the narratives of Jesus’ birth contradict each other? | GotQuestions.org

Those who claim to see a contradiction in the narratives of Christ’s birth usually point to Luke 2:39, which says, “When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth,” and Matthew 2:21–23, which says that Joseph and his family went to Nazareth on their return from Egypt. According to the critics, Luke, who says nothing about the flight to Egypt, indicates that Jesus was taken to Nazareth directly from the temple; and Matthew, who does not mention the temple observances, says that Jesus was taken to Nazareth directly from Egypt.

It’s important to acknowledge that silence does not equal denial. Luke’s omission in his narrative of the flight to Egypt cannot be construed as evidence that it never happened. Luke never says that Joseph and Mary did not go to Egypt; he simply doesn’t comment on the event. Matthew never mentions the shepherds of the nativity—are we to assume because of Matthew’s omission that no shepherds came? Also important is the fact that neither Matthew nor Luke claim that he is penning an exhaustive account of every detail surrounding the birth of Christ.

The question then is, does Luke’s narrative allow for enough time for a trip to Egypt? Between the circumcision of Jesus and the trip to the temple was 32 days—about a month. Trying to fit a trip to Egypt and back in that time frame is problematic. A better way to reconcile Matthew’s and Luke’s narratives is to place the flight to Egypt after Jesus’ appearance in the temple. This assumes that Joseph and Mary remained in Bethlehem after Jesus’ birth and that they had a place to stay—the “house” of Matthew 2:11.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Luke not mentioning their flight to Egypt doesn't mean that he disagreed with Matthew. Do the narratives of Jesus’ birth contradict each other? | GotQuestions.org

Please stop linking to random apologetics articles. I've read lots of apologetics. I'm having a conversation with you. If I wanted to read apologetics I'd do that on my own time.

The issue is not merely that the flight to Egypt is not mentioned in one account. Reread what I wrote. Better yet. Reread the actual accounts, separately. List the events given in each. Ask yourself, are these accounts describing the same things? No, they're not. They differ on almost all details.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Please stop linking to random apologetics articles. I've read lots of apologetics. I'm having a conversation with you. If I wanted to read apologetics I'd do that on my own time.

The issue is not merely that the flight to Egypt is not mentioned in one account. Reread what I wrote. Better yet. Reread the actual accounts, separately. List the events given in each. Ask yourself, are these accounts describing the same things? No, they're not. They differ on almost all details.

The trip to Egypt happened after Jesus was in the temple. There's nothing in the scriptures of Matthew or Luke that guarantees Joseph and Mary remained in Bethlehem after Jesus was born and that they had a place to stay at.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The Bible does not say that anywhere, Old or New Testament. So I don't know where where you got it.

Romans 5:12 in the New Living Translation, reads, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned".
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Romans 5:12 in the New Living Translation, reads, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned".

That verse does not say original sin is passed on genetically through men. It says the opposite, actually.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That verse does not say original sin is passed on genetically through men. It says the opposite, actually.

The context of the following verse doesn't imply that sin is passed down from both parents. Romans 5:13. "For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No why would he be able to?
He only followed the commands of Hashem.
Outside of that he's no different from any other Jew.

Have you never wondered why his sons and further descendants weren't put in power?





Hey! Don't say that!
There was also a huge earthquake, of which no historical record exists.
A huge storm, of which no historical record exists.
And most importantly the dead in Jerusalem rose! Though... no historical record exists.

You'd think at least the last one would've gotten some attention from the Romans.
What if Moses came back and Hashem appointed him again to reveal more?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The trip to Egypt happened after Jesus was in the temple. There's nothing in the scriptures of Matthew or Luke that guarantees Joseph and Mary remained in Bethlehem after Jesus was born and that they had a place to stay at.

Again, you're picking out one detail and trying the rationalize how it could fit both narratives. Step back. Read both accounts independently. They describe completely different events.
 
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