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Curiosity?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So you asked a question... "how exactly do you explain the origin of species? Without magic, that is."
The above question was asked of another member.

I just clicked on that post to ask .... 'How is the question about that terrorist bomb developing?'

Remember? You wondered..... 'why we are researching for so much info, so many answers, spending so much in so many fields of science, when terrorist bombs are going off in car-parks?'

I'm just interested to know whether or not you would like to discuss security issues and spending, or was that all just bull dust for attention?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ah, so you think God was just a big wizard in the sky 'poofing' things into existence with a word? That is not the picture I get from my studies in the scriptures.
No, but I think [he]'s routinely imagined along those lines ─ what is petitionary prayer if not a request for a big wizard in the sky to poof some solution into existence?
What is the 'reality' that you think it can't be altered?
Reality is the world external to the self which we perceive via our senses. We can alter or affect parts of it, but most of it, no.
With the Creator whose power brought matter into existence and thus created the material Universe, you really think he has the limitations you place on him?
I really think there's no such entity, simply a being ─ more accurately a wide range of beings, depending on where you are ─ that have no existence except as concepts or things imagined in individual brains. There isn't even a coherent definition of a god that has objective existence, such that if we found a real suspect, we could determine whether it was God or not.
You act as if he must fit your criteria......I get the impression that it is we who must fit his.....guess we'll all find out sooner or later, huh?
No, being purely conceptual / imaginary, God fits the criteria of each person who imagines [him]
So will scientific knowledge increase with time or do you see it stagnating where it is? How do you know what will become "science" in the future? Everything you deny today could become scientific fact in a few decades.
I think science will continue to explore, describe and seek to explain the world external to the self, and that many things we presently think are accurate descriptions of that reality will change over time, just as they always have.
There are rules to reality? Really? Who said?
Archimedes. Eratosthenes. Newton. Galileo. Maxwell. Einstein. Bohr. And many many more.
I get the impression that nothing will alter your perceptions...no matter what anyone said.
My mind is easy to change. All that's required is examinable evidence, reasoned enquiry, and conclusions derived by transparent argument.
Then you have no idea what the Bible teaches or the details it goes into to describe extra-terrestrial life.
You jest, I take it. The bible has the understandings of nature that were available to its authors in the times and places it was written. They don't include any understanding of a spherical earth, gravity and orbits, satellites, stars, the solar system, deep space, galaxies, the Big Bang, the generations of stars and the formation of the heavy elements, relativity, quantum physics, the cosmic microwave background, dark matter (whatever that turns out to be) and so on.

Why should they? They lived between two and three thousand years ago, and what they wrote reflects exactly that. Why would you expect them to know what we know in 2020? Why not expect them to know what we knew in 1000 CE? Or 1492? Or 1776? Or will know in Stardate 2649?
That is the most pathetic interpretation of scripture that I have ever read....:facepalm:
Their words, not mine. And I think by 'pathetic' you mean 'inconvenient'.
They have been amongst us for millenniums.....in fact the apostle Paul said
If they're real then there'll be photos and scientific studies. Please refer me to both.
You would never know one if you saw one. They can materialize to look completely human. The Bible has quite a few accounts.They don't need you to believe in them.
Again, the photos and the studies, the hard evidence ─ not just stories in ancient and unskeptical books.
I am in awe of the Creator and the science behind creation. (just from the little I know) So, no one is going to tell me that this planet and all the life that teems here is just a fluke created by an endless series of fortunate but unplanned events. How far can you go without running out of the statistics of probability?
I suggest you start to inform yourself how evolution works. Neither we nor the 747 were put together by a twister in a junkyard.
Well, that was an intelligent response....:rolleyes: If he turns "nasty", it isn't me who needs to worry. o_O
Oh yes it is. [He]'s a superscientist of a different species and [his] aims and purposes, hence [his] intentions from time to time, are not ours.

Or [he]'s a supernatural being, hence anything you care to imagine [him] to be.
It is very apparent that you have never met this God you keep denying. He is very real to me and an important part of my life, guiding me through many terrible experiences.
Your god is personal to you and outside of these debate boards I wish you the best with your life and, if you find them helpful, your beliefs.
I know why the world is the way it is, and I know what's coming and I am prepared for it......I don't think you have the slightest clue, personally...and I'm sad about that. You couldn't say what you do if you really knew him....He is standing right in front of you, but you have no eyes to see him. :(
I didn't arrive lightly at my point of view. Good luck to us both.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
What is bringing the world to its knees right now?......a tiny virus.......and where did it come from? Anyone asking those questions?

Yes. Scientists are asking those questions and have been for many years. Scientists are the ones who developed isolation procedures to halt the spread of Ebola. Scientists are the ones who developed the COVID vaccines.

Where to from here? I know where my faith lies...

Your faith lies with the God who has done nothing.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
A preteen can understand the argument. Why do you think there are millions of science students who don't believe the theory? Do you seriously believe it's because they don't understand it?

"Millions of science students who don't believe the theory"? Really? What do you have to back up that nonsensical comment? Anything?

If you want to say there are millions of people who accept 3000-year-old religious stories over science, then I would agree with you. There are millions of people who were indoctrinated from birth to believe God and, therefore, not science. We see some of them here on RF.

Are you curious about how the earth just happen to be so precisely fit for life of all kinds, and everything else that goes with that package?

Are you curious about how the depression just happened to be so precisely fit for the water that accumulated in it?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yep...amazing how a theory can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?

Yep...amazing how stories about an entity creating an immense universe can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?

Yep...amazing how stories about a little wooden boat sustaining seven people and two of all kinds of animals in the most horrific storm imaginable can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?

Yep...amazing how stories about a man walking on water can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I like to examine all the evidence, not just the stuff that backs up what I believe. One of my favorite sites is Berkeley Ed as it presents its science for students in easy to understand language. When you take out the jargon, the simple explanations cannot mask the absurdity of what is presented.
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/teaching/guide_to_us.php

What about them? We do not deny science when facts are provable, but when it comes to some aspects of (theoretical) science (e.g. macro-evolution) the “proof” is simply not there.



It is obvious you failed to understand even the "easy to understand language"

From your link...




MISCONCEPTION: Science proves ideas.


CORRECTION: Journalists often write about "scientific proof" and some scientists talk about it, but in fact, the concept of proof — real, absolute proof — is not particularly scientific. Science is based on the principle that any idea, no matter how widely accepted today, could be overturned tomorrow if the evidence warranted it. Science accepts or rejects ideas based on the evidence; it does not prove or disprove them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, but I think [he]'s routinely imagined along those lines ─ what is petitionary prayer if not a request for a big wizard in the sky to poof some solution into existence?

Sadly there are many “Christians” who’s subscribe to the ‘big wizard in the sky “poofing” concept’. I am not one of them. Nor do I see him as some kind of celestial “waiter” who, when I snap my fingers, answers my request with “yes Mam, and would you like fries with that?” o_O

Prayer is not a request for a miracle but for strength to endure the inevitable trials of this life, because there will be no miracles. (Matthew 24:13) Those counting on miracles are more often than not, very disappointed.

Reality is the world external to the self which we perceive via our senses. We can alter or affect parts of it, but most of it, no.

So many people live in altered states of reality....who is to say what is real anyway? If you have ever had anything to do with delusional people, you will understand what I mean. Our reality is not theirs.

My mind is easy to change. All that's required is examinable evidence, reasoned enquiry, and conclusions derived by transparent argument.

These are all right under your nose, but you do not have your eyes open. It requires hindsight, foresight and insight to discern the Creator’s activities and his spirit to open ‘blinded’ eyes (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)...but only if they want to. I see no apparent desire in you to know anything about him that requires you to alter your position. So be it.....that is your choice.

The bible has the understandings of nature that were available to its authors in the times and places it was written. They don't include any understanding of a spherical earth, gravity and orbits, satellites, stars, the solar system, deep space, galaxies, the Big Bang, the generations of stars and the formation of the heavy elements, relativity, quantum physics, the cosmic microwave background, dark matter (whatever that turns out to be) and so on.

Indeed....scientific details would have been meaningless to humans before the era when science became a substitute for religion.
But there were a few tantalising details in the Bible, that we today can better understand in the light of present day knowledge.

At Job 26:7, it says that God is “hanging the earth upon nothing.” In the original Hebrew, the word for “nothing” (beli-mahʹ) used here literally means “not any thing,” and this is the only time it occurs in the Bible. The picture it presents of an earth surrounded by empty space is recognized by scholars as a remarkable, especially for its time.
How could Job have known to phrase things just that way? Why would he say that nothing of substance holds up the earth, when it took the “experts” well over 3,000 years to arrive at the same conclusion?

It also describes the “circle” of the earth.
Isaiah 40:22 reads: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” When this text says that God sits above the circle of the earth, (from his vantage point) this harmonizes with the fact that the earth is circular, viewed from all directions, but that also makes it globular in form. The Hebrew word chuwg” here is defined in A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures by B. Davidson as “circle, sphere.”

Later astronomers knew that the earth was a circle but not flat. So did it’s Maker. As I said, scientific knowledge was waiting thousands of years into the future to discover what God had recorded in his word.

Israel’s hygiene laws are another example of scientific knowledge being implemented without a full understanding of why they were necessary. Quarantining and hand washing, as well as measures to minimise contamination were all there in God’s law. No one knew about bacteria or viruses.
How could any of the Bible writers know the details about which they were inspired to record? Up until the beginning of last century doctors were still going from an autopsy to a sick patient without washing their hands. :eek:

Why should they? They lived between two and three thousand years ago, and what they wrote reflects exactly that. Why would you expect them to know what we know in 2020? Why not expect them to know what we knew in 1000 CE? Or 1492? Or 1776? Or will know in Stardate 2649?

That is the point. Now we do know and what was written thousands of years ago reveals what God-inspired scripture only hinted at......that level of knowledge was going to take a long time to reach......so what level do you think we will reach in the future? (as long as clever humans haven’t wiped us out with all their misapplied scientific knowledge) :rolleyes:

Their words, not mine. And I think by 'pathetic' you mean 'inconvenient'.
No, I mean just plain pathetic. The worst interpretation of scripture imaginable. Nothing even close to what was written. Interpretation does not just require precise knowledge of the original languages, but also the correct application of the intent behind the words. Your quotes were a miserable “FAIL” on both counts.

If they're real then there'll be photos and scientific studies. Please refer me to both.

LOL. Yes I’m sure that the Creator will provide you with all the evidence you need in the very near future. BTW....you won’t need photos. :D

I suggest you start to inform yourself how evolution works. Neither we nor the 747 were put together by a twister in a junkyard.

Oh, I’ve informed myself well enough.....which is exactly why I find it so comical that the most brilliant minds in the world can fall for such a childish substitute for factual knowledge. I don’t think many of you evolutionists ever see past the musings of your own peers. Your indoctrination bubble allows no excursions past your precious godlessness. But that is how it was prophesied to be.

Jesus said.....Luke 10:21....
I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.”

So even small children have an advantage over the most brilliant scientific minds of the era......they are not stuck in pre-conceived ideas, but are meek and teachable.

Oh yes it is. [He]'s a superscientist of a different species and [his] aims and purposes, hence [his] intentions from time to time, are not ours.

Or [he]'s a supernatural being, hence anything you care to imagine [him] to be.

He is who HE says he is....I have no reason to doubt that.....but you are free to think whatever you wish. That is a decision made by the gift of free will. The exercise of free will, will either save us or cause our demise, (according to scripture) so we are each determining our own future, just by the choices we make.

I didn't arrive lightly at my point of view. Good luck to us both.

Luck has nothing to do with it....IMO. I am wondering what led you to such confidence in your viewpoint?
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am wondering what led you to such confidence in your viewpoint?
Unlike you, I try to use the most objective test available for determining what is true and what is not. Truth, for me, is a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it accurately reflects / corresponds with, objective reality (that is, the world external to the self, nature). Outside of this sentence there are no absolute truths, of course, but the justification for this method is that it works in reality.

The evidence that gods exist only as concepts / things imagined in individual brains is overwhelming ─ this is where those photos and objective, impartial and honest researches come in if you want to argue that God exists in reality. Ant this is where the total absence of a definition of God in terms appropriate to a being with objective existence is also very telling ─ if God is real, why is there no objective test that will determine whether my keyboard is God or not?

And my own view is that ancient documents deserve FAR more respect than you afford them. They say what they say, and what they say is plainly not what you say. They tell us of their authors and their authors' times and places, glimpses of the past. To turn them into magic books foretelling the future may be lots of fun, but in terms of history it's a perversion of the texts.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What would you like the World to do?
The world does what it's guided to do. One of which is to pour its efforts into destroying itself... and others.

For instance, the next time there is a terrorist attack somewhere, anywhere.. should we close down scientific research across the World to focus just on community security?
That's nothing close to what I said, nor indicated.
However, community security seems to me, to be a priority of any good ruler.

Would you like us to do that?
Do you mean what would I like you, as in you, to do? Or scientists?
It's not about what I would like. I would like more people to wake up! :D
As for the world, it will continue sleeping, but some are waking up, and are coming to the realization Solomon came to. (Ecclesiastes 8:9) All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm. Revelation 11:18
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Unlike you, I try to use the most objective test available for determining what is true and what is not. Truth, for me, is a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it accurately reflects / corresponds with, objective reality (that is, the world external to the self, nature). Outside of this sentence there are no absolute truths, of course, but the justification for this method is that it works in reality.

The evidence that gods exist only as concepts / things imagined in individual brains is overwhelming ─ this is where those photos and objective, impartial and honest researches come in if you want to argue that God exists in reality. Ant this is where the total absence of a definition of God in terms appropriate to a being with objective existence is also very telling ─ if God is real, why is there no objective test that will determine whether my keyboard is God or not?

And my own view is that ancient documents deserve FAR more respect than you afford them. They say what they say, and what they say is plainly not what you say. They tell us of their authors and their authors' times and places, glimpses of the past. To turn them into magic books foretelling the future may be lots of fun, but in terms of history it's a perversion of the texts.

Oh, that “magic” word again......yesterday's "magic" is tomorrow's "science".....you don't seem to be able to push past today for some reason....? :shrug:

Prophesies written hundreds and even thousands of years before they happen are not to be brushed aside as mere coincidence. We are living in the outworking of the last prophesy as we speak.....fulfilled down to the last detail. You can dismiss it if you wish.....I can't, because I know what it means for the future of all of earth's inhabitants.

But if you think you have it all worked out, what else can I say?.....it is apparent that you have never interacted with this God who guides my thoughts and actions on a daily basis. He has never ever given me a bum steer.....but he allows access to himself only to those who can demonstrate faith (John 6:65).....owing to the reason as to why he put us humans here on Planet Earth in the first place, he has no use for those who beg to differ and can’t simply follow his instructions because they think too much of their own opinions. To us, there is only one opinion that matters....HIS.

I guess you will have to take that up with him....
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
This OP started as a (not very well formulated) question about (scientific) curiosity.
Not well formulated? Really?

Now it is all over the place, with a big school of red herrings.
That is the difference between your curiosity and scientific curiosity:
scientists stay on topic. They investigate a topic in depth because they really want an answer. You, so it seems to me, do not want an answer. (Or something like ADHS prevents you from keeping focus - just one possible explanation, not a diagnosis.)
Can we get back from the accretion of the moon to the topic?
I'm sorry Heyo, that you totally misinterpreted the OP.
I can't help you or others who want OPs to fit what you zero in on, and miss the point.
I know sometimes we do get excited about something because we may have interest in it, and that can cause us to miss something being conveyed.

I think it does require effort to see more than words.
I suppose that calls for the art of listening, and none of of are born with that. It's something learned.

Just to give an example. JWs are excited about the kingdom message they share, and we get excited when talking to persons.
Sometimes that excitement causes us to miss something someone says, because we are so focused on our message.
So we are reminded to give attention to how we listen. Don't just hear words, but listen with the understanding. Not superficially.
We find that by putting that into practice, we have been able to address the real concerns of people.

So, looking at the OP, I see I said this...
Why are scientists speculating about Earth being seeded by Mars, with organic life?
When they speculate on what may, might, could have, happened, and they can't prove it, how are they or others benefitted? Does it cure illnesses... terrorism.... domestic abuse.... prejudices.... wars.... poverty.... crime....?

Why are they so curious to spend billions of dollars, on Mars, and someone can plant a bomb - not in a relatively secluded area, but in the parking lot of scores of schools, and detonate it precisely when they want it to... and go unnoticed?

Why couldn't Earth have seeded life on Mars, with its bazillions of organic microbes that existed millions of years ago?


I formulated it this way with intent, that the point I am making could visibly be seen. I highlighted the main thread in red.
I thought it would be clear that I am really interested in the fact that speculation about something one can never know, is useless, because the speculation does nothing for you.
It's the things we know, that benefits us.
For example, scientists know that the heavenly bodies follow laws in the universe, and they use this knowledge to travel, or launch vehicles, to particular destinations... etc.

Not knowing something however, does not benefit them in any way.
Speculating that life came from Mars does nothing to change the fact that life exists on earth.
Say for example they speculated A happened, and the truth is, A never happened, but Z did.
Their wrong guess does not change anything, does it?
They will only go through life thinking they know, when they don't, as has been the case so often.
Hence, the moon question was to emphasize my point. It's fitting.
Creating a fairy tale, which one cannot deny it isn't, benefits no one. All it does is lodge in your mind as a beautiful story that helps you sleep at night.
The terror of a Big Freeze, or Big Crunch, will still give you nightmares.
Death at the hand of a terrorist still looms over the heads of nations... etc., etc.

Perhaps the mistake I made is not remembering that the Science Religion, and Evolution Creation forums are filled with persons eager to teach and educate the ignorant folk like myself. So I should remember "don't put things in question form because you will have persons having just one focus - teaching you."

If this is not a debate forum, but a teachers forum, I will have to refrain from posting here. Is that what these forums are - teaching platforms?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The above question was asked of another member.

I just clicked on that post to ask .... 'How is the question about that terrorist bomb developing?'

Remember? You wondered..... 'why we are researching for so much info, so many answers, spending so much in so many fields of science, when terrorist bombs are going off in car-parks?'

I'm just interested to know whether or not you would like to discuss security issues and spending, or was that all just bull dust for attention?
No. I am not interested in discussing security issues. I am not into politics, nor am I interested in directing the world's affairs.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
However, community security seems to me, to be a priority of any good ruler.
Where I live we have the highest density of security camera coverage anywhere. But some folks want to moan about that.
Christian communities were once quite scary places to live within for some peple.

I would like more people to wake up! :D
As for the world, it will continue sleeping, but some are waking up, and are coming to the realization Solomon came to. (Ecclesiastes 8:9) All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm. Revelation 11:18
I have done a little waking up, and studied the gospels for a time, and I know for sure that Apostle John never was the Disciple John, and although he did have a very useful bundle of accounts, stories and anecdotes about Jesus he didn't have a clue about what happened, when or over how long long. I woke up to that alright.

John didn't even know what Jesus actually did each day during his last week in Jerusalem. If you have woken up then you will know, for instance, what Jesus did on the first day after arrival in Jerusalem that last week. Try that. See if you know.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Why are they so curious to spend billions of dollars, on Mars, and someone can plant a bomb - not in a relatively secluded area, but in the parking lot of scores of schools, and detonate it precisely when they want it to... and go unnoticed?

Did you ever really want to discuss that?

No. I am not interested in discussing security issues. I am not into politics, nor am I interested in directing the world's affairs.

:facepalm:
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Not well formulated? Really?
Depends on your intention. It might have worked as planed.
I'm sorry Heyo, that you totally misinterpreted the OP.
I can't help you or others who want OPs to fit what you zero in on, and miss the point.
I know sometimes we do get excited about something because we may have interest in it, and that can cause us to miss something being conveyed.

I think it does require effort to see more than words.
I suppose that calls for the art of listening, and none of of are born with that. It's something learned.
Yes, and it's especially difficult online. The finer details of non literal communications are not present in text.
Just to give an example. JWs are excited about the kingdom message they share, and we get excited when talking to persons.
Sometimes that excitement causes us to miss something someone says, because we are so focused on our message.
So we are reminded to give attention to how we listen. Don't just hear words, but listen with the understanding. Not superficially.
We find that by putting that into practice, we have been able to address the real concerns of people.
Re-reading our conversation I get your excitement and focus on the message.
Not only had you to wrestle with text-only communication but also with RF rules of conduct.
In your focus on the message and your excitement you had to keep your sermon so obscure as to not trigger the mods "proselytising" senses.
You managed that but the message got lost.
So, looking at the OP, I see I said this...
When they speculate on what may, might, could have, happened, and they can't prove it, how are they or others benefitted?[...]

I formulated it this way with intent, that the point I am making could visibly be seen. I highlighted the main thread in red.
Yeah, no. You see, usually a question mark indicates a question. Rhetorical questions are a special case and one can detect them when the writer answers the question himself. You were not too clear in your answer. (But then, if you'd had been, your proselytising may have been detected.)

So let me summarise your sermon in a hyperbolic way so that it can't be interpreted as proselytising and at the same time be clear.

Science bad.
Investigation useless.
The end is near.


Did I get it now?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Depends on your intention. It might have worked as planed.

Yes, and it's especially difficult online. The finer details of non literal communications are not present in text.

Re-reading our conversation I get your excitement and focus on the message.
Not only had you to wrestle with text-only communication but also with RF rules of conduct.
In your focus on the message and your excitement you had to keep your sermon so obscure as to not trigger the mods "proselytising" senses.
You managed that but the message got lost.

Yeah, no. You see, usually a question mark indicates a question. Rhetorical questions are a special case and one can detect them when the writer answers the question himself. You were not too clear in your answer. (But then, if you'd had been, your proselytising may have been detected.)

So let me summarise your sermon in a hyperbolic way so that it can't be interpreted as proselytising and at the same time be clear.

Science bad.
Investigation useless.
The end is near.


Did I get it now?
Man, this concoction isn't even anywhere near the ball park. It's like I had to go to the end of the universe to get it.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Your faith lies with the God who has done nothing.

It would seem god have to do “nothing”, otherwise, he wouldn’t get all the human sufferings needed to drive people to join the church, nor would he meet his daily quotas needed to send soul to heaven, hell or purgatory. :shrug:
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yep...amazing how stories about an entity creating an immense universe can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?

Yep...amazing how stories about a little wooden boat sustaining seven people and two of all kinds of animals in the most horrific storm imaginable can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?

Yep...amazing how stories about a man walking on water can become a fact just with the power of belief.....and how many people subscribe to that belief based on the power of suggestion?

Amazing but also pathetic that our hero after all this time can't learn such a simple thing as that a theory is not, cannot and never will be a fact.

Such a person presumes to know more than any scientist on earth.
 
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