The Unitarian Problem

Terrywoodenpic · Dec 28, 2020

The Bible gives us a primative view of the world and the heavens, just as one would expect from a late iron age middle Eastern people.
It is not a view to be expected from an all knowing Creator.

The Bible was written by men of their time, and compiled by others of a later time. In line with and to support their own religious and secular belief system. As required by the Emperor. The books and writings that did not comply with this view point were declared heretical, as were their sponsors.

As ever was so. The winners wrote the history. And set the agenda.

However even they were later ignored when the filioque was added to the creed by the Roman church.

Terrywoodenpic · Dec 28, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
The real question is whether or not Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour. To be Lord and Saviour, he must be of God. This makes him worthy of our worship and service.

That is a circular argument.
Everything is of God, if you believe in creation.
Jesus never claimed to be more than a son of God.

If you believe that Jesus was speaking for God. You should follow his teachings, and that does not include worshiping him, which he reserved for God alone.

shunyadragon · Dec 28, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
The fact that men compiled the books does not detract from the divine authorship of the Bible. Men can be inspired in their studies as much as in their prophecy.

Up until the 17th century the authorities and astronomers were inspired that our universe was geocentric.

In response to the second criticism, I would say that the Bible intentionally gives the earthly perspective. Nowhere are these biblical statements contrary to the idea of a sun-centred solar system. The scriptures give a human view, as one would see out of a window; the sun rises, and the sun goes down. The scriptures do not say that the sun circles the earth.

Not true the references in the Bible are specifically for a geocentric solar system. All the literature, illustrations, and science in reference to the Bible up until the 16th and 17th century were for a geocentric universe using the Bible as the authority. You did not respond to the important question: Can you provide an early Christian reference that referred to sun centered solar system?

TrueBeliever37 · Dec 28, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
What do you think it means to be 'born of the water'?

As regards the 'trinity', there are a number of variations on the theme. What they have in common is a belief in one God.

The main point of difference between 'Unitarian Christians' and 'Trinitarian Christians' concerns the deity of Christ. Or, to word it differently, they disagree as to whether Jesus Christ is worthy of worship. Do you believe Jesus Christ is worthy of worship?

And do you believe that God the Father is within you?

For your first question above - As I have told you in my previous posts - Being born of the water is referring to water baptism in the name, for the remission of sins.

As regards the Trinity - They say in words they believe in one God. But in reality they believe in 3 Gods. When you believe in 3 separate distinct persons that are each totally and completely God by themselves, then you believe in 3 Gods.

As I said in my posts - I believe in one God, who took on flesh and shed his blood for man's sins. So the answer is yes - the one who shed his blood is my God, and is worthy of worship.

Since I believe the Father is the Holy Spirit - Then the answer to your last question is yes. When you receive the Holy Spirit, the Father is dwelling in you.

SonOfElElyon · Dec 28, 2020

God is a trinity, the father... the son... and the holy spirit. In three, there is one. He is in the father and the father is in him, the holy spirit descends from the father to the son. So yes, God is one.... in three.

shunyadragon · Dec 28, 2020

SonOfElElyon said:
God is a trinity, the father... the son... and the holy spirit. In three, there is one. He is in the father and the father is in him, the holy spirit descends from the father to the son. So yes, God is one.... in three.

ENRON bookkeeping in theology. A shell game with three peas under the walnut shells. No matter how you word it is polytheism. Three distinct 'persons' with different roles that remain distinct.

SonOfElElyon · Dec 28, 2020

shunyadragon said:
ENRON bookkeeping in theology. A shell game with three peas under the walnut shells. No matter how you word it is polytheism. Three distinct 'persons' with different roles that remain distinct.

Incorrect, just because you separate a whole doesn't make parts a whole individually.

shunyadragon · Dec 28, 2020

SonOfElElyon said:
Incorrect, just because you separate a whole doesn't make parts a whole individually.

Huh?!?!!?

Jesus Christ is seated on the right hand of God. Very, very distinct and a separate God.

sojourner · Dec 28, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Where in scripture do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit is with us from birth?

In Genesis where God breathed spirit into the human being.

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

Terrywoodenpic said:
That is a circular argument.
Everything is of God, if you believe in creation.
Jesus never claimed to be more than a son of God.

If you believe that Jesus was speaking for God. You should follow his teachings, and that does not include worshiping him, which he reserved for God alone.

The risen Lord is described by Thomas as 'My Lord and my God' [John 20:28]. This was not a 'throw away' remark, but an expression of realisation.

Now raised, and given dominion [Daniel 7:13,14], the Lord Jesus Christ is rightfully placed above the kingdoms of the earth [Revelation 11:15], where all shall bow the knee and confess him as Lord [Isaiah 45:22,23 and Philippians 2:10].

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

TrueBeliever37 said:
For your first question above - As I have told you in my previous posts - Being born of the water is referring to water baptism in the name, for the remission of sins.

As regards the Trinity - They say in words they believe in one God. But in reality they believe in 3 Gods. When you believe in 3 separate distinct persons that are each totally and completely God by themselves, then you believe in 3 Gods.

As I said in my posts - I believe in one God, who took on flesh and shed his blood for man's sins. So the answer is yes - the one who shed his blood is my God, and is worthy of worship.

Since I believe the Father is the Holy Spirit - Then the answer to your last question is yes. When you receive the Holy Spirit, the Father is dwelling in you.

What I am asking you, is what the water confers on a person. I know that when a person is born again of the Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit. Do you think that water washes away sin?

I accept all that you say elsewhere, but this does not make you a Unitarian. A Christian Unitarian does not, according to definition, believe in the deity of Christ.

The other point worth considering, is whether or not Jesus had a soul, and whether his soul is part of God now that he is raised and on the throne.

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

sojourner said:
In Genesis where God breathed spirit into the human being.

Was that in Adam before the fall? Did his spirit remain holy, even after the fall?

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

shunyadragon said:
Up until the 17th century the authorities and astronomers were inspired that our universe was geocentric.

Not true the references in the Bible are specifically for a geocentric solar system. All the literature, illustrations, and science in reference to the Bible up until the 16th and 17th century were for a geocentric universe using the Bible as the authority. You did not respond to the important question: Can you provide an early Christian reference that referred to sun centered solar system?

What you're asking for is a scientific explanation of events that are observed by the human eye. The scriptures do not provide this kind of explanation. Learning of this sort, the uncovering of truths about the created heavens and earth, are a matter for the minds of scientific men. God leaves this kind of advancement to the world, where man is given dominion.

The truths expressed in the Bible are for all time. Knowing that the earth orbits the sun would not have changed man's earthly observations two thousand years before Christ. The sun would still have risen and gone down, much as it does today. The Bible is not wrong. Nowhere does it say that the sun orbits the earth, although some men may have come to believe that it did. The truth was demonstrated by scientific practices at the appointed time.

shunyadragon · Dec 29, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
What you're asking for is a scientific explanation of events that are observed by the human eye. The scriptures do not provide this kind of explanation. Learning of this sort, the uncovering of truths about the created heavens and earth, are a matter for the minds of scientific men. God leaves this kind of advancement to the world, where man is given dominion.

The truths expressed in the Bible are for all time. Knowing that the earth orbits the sun would not have changed man's earthly observations two thousand years before Christ. The sun would still have risen and gone down, much as it does today. The Bible is not wrong. Nowhere does it say that the sun orbits the earth, although some men may have come to believe that it did. The truth was demonstrated by scientific practices at the appointed time.

You did not respond to the important question: Can you provide an early Christian reference that referred to sun centered solar system?

Up until the 17th century the Bible was believed concerning our solar system and universe was geocentric. It was secular science with scientific methods that determined that this was false. This is a significant issue where the Bible scriptures are in error

sojourner · Dec 29, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Was that in Adam before the fall? Did his spirit remain holy, even after the fall?

Of course.

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

shunyadragon said:
You did not respond to the important question: Can you provide an early Christian reference that referred to sun centered solar system?

Up until the 17th century the Bible was believed concerning our solar system and universe was geocentric. It was secular science with scientific methods that determined that this was false. This is a significant issue where the Bible scriptures are in error

How can the scriptures of the Bible be in error if they make no claim to the earth being orbited by the sun? Why would I go looking for an early Christian reference to a sun-centred solar system when such a reference is irrelevant to the question of Biblical inerrancy? As I see it, it's up to you to provide a passage from the Bible that proves the Bible to be in error!

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

sojourner said:
Of course.

So you believe that Adam, after the fall, was without sin?

sojourner · Dec 29, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
So you believe that Adam, after the fall, was without sin?

Sin has nothing to do with the purity of the Holy Spirit within. We can’t make God dirty. Sin is nothing more than a forgetting of that imminence of God and of our true nature.

shunyadragon · Dec 29, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
How can the scriptures of the Bible be in error if they make no claim to the earth being orbited by the sun? Why would I go looking for an early Christian reference to a sun-centred solar system when such a reference is irrelevant to the question of Biblical inerrancy? As I see it, it's up to you to provide a passage from the Bible that proves the Bible to be in error!

The scriptures claim and describe the earth as the center of the universe and everything including the Sun and the planets orbit the earth.
Long list of passages can be found here: What Does the Bible Say About Geocentrism?

Still waiting . . .

You did not respond to the important question: Can you provide an early Christian reference that referred to sun centered solar system?

Up until the 17th century the Bible was believed concerning our solar system and universe was geocentric. It was secular science with scientific methods that determined that this was false. This is a significant issue where the Bible scriptures are in error

Redemptionsong · Dec 29, 2020

sojourner said:
Sin has nothing to do with the purity of the Holy Spirit within. We can’t make God dirty. Sin is nothing more than a forgetting of that imminence of God and of our true nature.

Is sin nothing more than the forgetting of God's presence? Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit continues to dwell in a temple where God's presence is forgotten?

James 4:8-10. 'Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.'

The Unitarian Problem

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