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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
I understand your religious belief but I wish you could see that you present it in a way which does not prove fruitful. Your first claim is that certain verses "have details that are not clear in the text."

Some might say, "no, they have the details that are clear, but you read in other ideas because you need the verses to say more." Others might say, "the details that are not clear are not at all what you think they are but since they are not clear, you miss them" while even others might say, "the details are clear if you read the text properly and in the right context."

Your next suggestion is that 7:14 has to do with a "virgin birth". That is no where in the verse and is a function of what you need to find, after the fact.

Then you say that something is "clear from the text." Thing is, no such thing is clear to many people. What is clear is that you are using eisegesis, starting from the conclusions you need to validate.

There are plenty of things I could say are "clear from the text" and I could either show you the explanations which show how clear they are, or I could just aver their truth with nothing other than my faith to support them. Neither would prove persuasive.
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The Tanakh talks about God being a Savior. This verse from the Old Testament is also in the Tanakh.
Isaiah 45:18-23 KJV Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 45:18-23 - King James Version
18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
And when the Tanakh talks about God being the Savior, it is speaking about being saved from very earthly crises, such as ones enemies.
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People dont save themselves in situations like that. God saves them through vessels and situations. God is the Savior of people who survived wars-it was the intellect that God gave them-they didn't save themselves. Isaiah 45:22 is a reference to turning to God for forgiveness, not God saving us from earthly crises.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
So you concede that you were wrong to add "Son of God" to the verses in Job, right?

Nope, the word Yahweh does not exist in those verses. Remember this is what you said:

This is not in Torah. Not in Genesis, not anywhere. I challenge you to find any verses that put those things together. You won't find it. It contradicts Deuteronomy 6:4.
View attachment 46401

This link is irrelevant to The New Covenant in Christianity.

Agreed. Christians don't have to practice the Old Covenant. They are not part of the Old Covenant at all. It's an agreement, a contract of sorts, between the Jewish people and our God.


This is completely irrelevant. Not only that, Isaiah cannot be talking about Jesus. Remember? Jesus is quoted in the NT saying he was NOT the Prince of Peace. He disqualified himself. Matthew 10:34.

View attachment 46402

Ignored: irrelevant

OK. The prolem here as I see it is the belief in Jesus as described in the NT as the messiah, as God violates some very clear verses in Torah. If you go way back in time, before the NT was written then what you're talking about is an elimination of the requirements of conversion? That's your definition of the New Covenant? No one needs to convert into Judaism anymore? They can just choose to label themselves Jewish?
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The Jewish people in the Old Testament mediated between God and the Gentile nations. The Son of God is the Mediator aspect of Yahweh. Do We Need a Mediator?

The Hebrew Scriptures reveal how mediators were central to the Jewish religion from the very beginning. God established his covenant with Israel at Mount Sinai, calling the new nation a "kingdom of priests" (Exodus 19:6). This was an honor as well as a grave responsibility. The Jewish people, by our faithfulness in keeping the commandments, were to "mediate" between God and the gentile nations. We were to reflect the reality of a living God to the rest of the world so that they, too, might know him.

When the people stood in the presence of God, they did not tell Moses, "We don't need a 'go-between,' we can handle this ourselves, thank you very much!" The people implored Moses to go in their stead; they were terrified at the prospect of going "directly to God!" Imagine hearing the boom of thunder claps! Imagine seeing the spectacular display of light and smoke upon Mount Sinai! Imagine realizing that you might be confronted by the Being you presumed existed but never hoped to encounter—the One who demands moral perfection. Many people quiver in the presence of a celebrity. How much greater the awe one must feel in the presence of the Creator!

Even the great prophet Moses, who interceded for the nation when God thought to destroy them, was not allowed to experience God's unbounded splendor.

"And the LORD said, 'I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence…' 'But,' he said, 'you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.'"
(Exodus 33:19,20)

If our Scriptures are true, then anyone who would see God face to face would die! But just as God protected the nation through Moses, God protected Moses, covering him with his own hand (Exodus 33:22). Why would Moses and the people need "protection" from God? Hadn't he chosen them, redeemed them and loved them? The prophet Isaiah's dramatic encounter with the living God shows why.

Isaiah had a vision of God seated on a throne surrounded by angelic beings singing, "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of His glory" (Isaiah 6:3). But the music of the heavens was more than a song, it was a supernatural symphony which filled the Temple. "The doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke" (Isaiah 6:4). As the nation of Israel trembled et the foot of Mount Sinai, Isaiah trembled before the same God who had spoken to Moses. One might think that Isaiah had good reason to be pleased and excited—the King of the Universe wanted to have an audience with him. But what was his reaction?

"'Woe to me!' I cried. 'I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.'"
(Isaiah 6:5)

Isaiah knew that in the presence of a holy God, he was "unholy." The contrast between God's righteousness and Isaiah's frailty was stark.…

He must have felt like someone who had dressed in a dimly lit room and entered the morning sunlight, only to find spots and stains that before were invisible. The closer he'd get to the source of light, the more apparent the blotches and blemishes would become. Of course, the stains were there all the time; he just couldn't see them when he was in the dark.

The reactions of Moses, the nation of Israel and Isaiah seem almost un-Jewish in light of modern theology. Instead of self-sufficiency, our ancestors felt fear and inadequacy. Instead of pride, they experienced humility and awe. They saw who God is, holy and righteous, and they cried out for mercy. When Moses, Isaiah or any human beings have come truly close to God, the Source of light, they could not but be overwhelmed by their own frailties. And just as God sent Moses to protect the people from their fear, he sent an angel with a live coal to touch Isaiah's lips and cleanse him from sin.
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Some Messianic Jewish people don't consider themselves Christians, and they follow both the Old and New Covenant.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
The Mishnah, is a record of the Oral Law that was given at Sinai. The point is that the definition of Avodah Zarah was not something made up after Jesus in the Talmud. It's older than that. Perhaps it's not important to you. But it shows that there was a history of avoiding strange and foreign gods and practices. For example:

This ^^ is strange. You're ignoring Deuteronomy 6:4.
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The Talmud teaches the belief of the New Testament being Avodah Zarah. The Talmud EXPOSED!


PROOF that the Talmud Refers to Jesus Christ as Balaam!

Under the name of "Balaam" the most lewd passages concerning Jesus appear. Proof that Jesus is called "Balaam" is found in the Jewish Encyclopedia ("Balaam") which, after enumerating loathsome qualities, states: "Hence...the pseudonym ‘Balaam' given to Jesus in Sanhedrin 106b and Gittin 57a."

In the same article, we are told that the Talmud likens the Gospel Christians and Christ to Baal sex-worshipers because of whose abominations 24,000 Israelites died of plague at the time of Balaam. (Numbers 25:1-9) Because Balaam had been asked to curse the Israelites but instead did not and foretold the coming Messiah (Numbers 24:17), the flimsy excuse is made that Jesus was a curse like Balaam. "He is pictured as blind of one eye and lame in one foot and his disciples distinguished by three morally corrupt qualities... " He is called "one that ruined a people," and His churches are likened to nudist Baal worship

And, "this hostility against his memory finds its climax in the dictum that whenever one discovers a feature of wickedness or disgrace in his life, one should preach about it." (Sanhedrin 106b) Hanging the calumny on the brief mention in the Bible that Balaam was slain (Numbers 31:8), this passage in Sanhedrin is cited by the Jewish Encyclopedia: "In the process of killing Balaam (Numbers 31:8), all four legal methods of execution: stoning, burning, decapitating, and strangling, were employed." (Sanhedrin 1c) "He met his death at the age of thirty-three and it is stated that he had no portion in the world to come." (Sanhedrin x, 2, 90a)

Sanhedrin 90a denying "Balaam" a place in the world to come there it is stated that the resurrection being denied by Sadducees and Samaritans "It was to oppose these that the doctrine was emphatically asserted in the second of the Eighteen Benedictions." The "sin" of pronouncing the Tetragrammaton is cited against Christ and Christians.

Turning to Sanhedrin 106a-106b we see the likening of Jesus to the supposed act of Balaam in causing 24,000 Israelites to go whoring and die of plague (some 1450 years before Christ was born). He is due for his "reward" for this infamy. His mother, Mary, is "She who...played the harlot with carpenters...They subjected him to four deaths, stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation...he was thirty-four years old." Another says: "I...have seen Balaam's Chronicle in which it stated, ‘Balaam the lame was thirty years old when Phineas the Robber killed him."

The footnote explains: "Balaam is frequently used in the Talmud as a type for Jesus." And the mother of Jesus is identified, the four deaths enumerated, and "...all the Balaam passages are anti-Christian in tendency. Balaam being used as an alias for Jesus, Phineas the Robber is thus taken to represent Pontius Pilate, and the Chronicle of Balaam probably to denote a Gospel."

Verifying the Jewish Encyclopedia account above on Balaam being Jesus in the Talmud we see "in the case of the wicked Balaam: whatever your find written about him, lecture upon it to his disadvantage." Christian churches are likened to tents for Baal prostitution, with old women outside, young ones inside to get customers drunk and disrobe and worship the "IDOL," Jesus, in Baal manner, by prostitution.

It is NOT oral tradition passed down from Moses. God gave Moses the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) Word-for-Word, and no more.
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YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
rosends said:
The easy answer is "no" but then that begs the logical paradox of "can God make a rock he can't lift?" We are trying to impose our human sensibility and logical system on God.
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And so that is why God's idea of perfection may not be ours.
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ehav4Ever said:
Yes. Yes, they did and they will continue to do so. They are probably doing it right now as I write this. ;)
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Ha, that's funny. But otoh, do you personally believe that Moses wrote the Tanach? And that the Exodus happened as written?
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Skywalker said:
Since one of the Messiahs purposes was to teach us how to live (he was to be a rabbi and a teacher), wouldn't it make sense that he would give a new covenant? The Tanakh doesn't mention the future division of the Old and New Covenant when spreading the gospel to the gentiles, because those details weren't relevant to giving a description of who the Messiah was to be.
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God knew when he transmitted the Law that no imperfect human could possibly fulfill it. Constituting themselves as sinners. The Law was perfect. No one other than Jesus could fulfill it.
Skywalker said:
Since one of the Messiahs purposes was to teach us how to live (he was to be a rabbi and a teacher), wouldn't it make sense that he would give a new covenant? The Tanakh doesn't mention the future division of the Old and New Covenant when spreading the gospel to the gentiles, because those details weren't relevant to giving a description of who the Messiah was to be.
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Here's a thought: Romans 4:15 - "for the law evolves anger, and where there is not law there is not violation either."
 
YoursTrue

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ehav4Ever said:
There you are. I could really use your input as a JW on the below thread. Can you add some comments?

How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?
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Thank you. I've been asking questions, Ehav. Everything, absolutely everything I've been learning adds up. I can add no further perspective now than to advise you to look at the jw.org website. Detailed answers, including differences of understanding of the Greek and Hebrew, are often explained. It's mind-bending for me to read certain things from some supporters of church dogma, even though they can differ from one another, such as explanations of why the "church" is really the "church," even though there's a Greek Orthodox Pope and a Roman Catholic Pope. Plus. (shrug.) There are certain things I don't understand from their explanations, well, I won't go into detail about that now.
Frankly, it's almost like saying that God knew Adam and Eve would sin beforehand. If He did, He would be a cruel, cruel God. He put the choice before them. The time allotted was not really for mankind, because He could have simply replaced the first two with another two. And maybe another one or two after that. And we all know the story about Lilith.
Anyway, in the meantime, what Jehovah's Witnesses believe is that the Messiah came, and the return is not the same as coming back in the flesh. This time he will come in power. So we will see.
P.S. By the way, Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe the scriptures mean that there are those who will be tortured forever literally as if they could feel it and are alive. Terrible thought and a misinterpretation plus bringing reproach upon the true God. Soooo many will be brought back from the dead. So many!
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
YoursTrue said:
God knew when he transmitted the Law that no imperfect human could possibly fulfill it. Constituting themselves as sinners. The Law was perfect. No one other than Jesus could fulfill it.

Here's a thought: Romans 4:15 - "for the law evolves anger, and where there is not law there is not violation either."
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Being Jewish doesn't mean you try to fulfill the law.

For some people Messianic Judaism is not beneficial and only the New Covenant is relevant to them.
 
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